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God doesn't have Free Will

mortsdor
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10/14/2014 8:43:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wondering what theists think on this.

I don't think God's will is free. God's nature is Good, God's nature is Loving, God knows all there is to know.

God's will Follows forth directly from his nature... is determined by his nature.

God Cannot choose the wrong thing. God's nature necessitates that he chooses the Right/Good thing.
I think understanding his will as following forth directly from his Good/loving Omniscient nature is the only sensible way of understanding it.

And if one can understand why this determined will doesn't impose upon/restrict god... (since this will Flows forth directly from his nature)
I think you should be able to understand why Determinists might feel the lack of "Free Will" isn't any big deal.... Your will following directly from your nature doesn't restrict you. You Are your nature, and your will is still yours... even if you couldn't choose something else.
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 8:48:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
God may be theoretically capable of doing the wrong thing... but he wouldn't, because he's perfect and Good etc...

His being good and Omniscient necessitates that he does the best/right thing.
Beastt
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10/14/2014 10:22:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 8:48:15 PM, mortsdor wrote:
God may be theoretically capable of doing the wrong thing... but he wouldn't, because he's perfect and Good etc...

His being good and Omniscient necessitates that he does the best/right thing.

Meaning he cannot choose. If he must always do what it best, (drowning infants, ordering armies to rape, kill and kidnap, commanding men to enslave, slaughter and rape), then he has no options.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 10:28:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:22:37 PM, Beastt wrote:
Meaning he cannot choose. If he must always do what it best, (drowning infants, ordering armies to rape, kill and kidnap, commanding men to enslave, slaughter and rape), then he has no options.

I only posted again because I Simply wanted to better clarify to pre-empt any suggestion that he has options of things that he's capable of doing, among which he chooses.

I understand that he chooses... Just saying (as are you I imagine) that his choice, as per traditional understanding, is determined by his nature.
bornofgod
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10/14/2014 10:29:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 8:43:21 PM, mortsdor wrote:
Wondering what theists think on this.

I don't think God's will is free. God's nature is Good, God's nature is Loving, God knows all there is to know.

God's will Follows forth directly from his nature... is determined by his nature.

God Cannot choose the wrong thing. God's nature necessitates that he chooses the Right/Good thing.
I think understanding his will as following forth directly from his Good/loving Omniscient nature is the only sensible way of understanding it.

And if one can understand why this determined will doesn't impose upon/restrict god... (since this will Flows forth directly from his nature)
I think you should be able to understand why Determinists might feel the lack of "Free Will" isn't any big deal.... Your will following directly from your nature doesn't restrict you. You Are your nature, and your will is still yours... even if you couldn't choose something else.

God's will is His program called Eternal Life. God's characters ( people and beasts ) are free of everything but of course, they don't know that yet.
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 10:31:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
God's will is His program called Eternal Life. God's characters ( people and beasts ) are free of everything but of course, they don't know that yet.

Do you think God's will is 'Free' or Determined.

if you think it's Free, perhaps you can address the points of the Original Post
bornofgod
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10/14/2014 10:38:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:31:17 PM, mortsdor wrote:
God's will is His program called Eternal Life. God's characters ( people and beasts ) are free of everything but of course, they don't know that yet.

Do you think God's will is 'Free' or Determined.

if you think it's Free, perhaps you can address the points of the Original Post

Read my post again and again until you understand that I did address the OP.
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 10:43:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:38:25 PM, bornofgod wrote:
God's will is His program called Eternal Life. God's characters ( people and beasts ) are free of everything but of course, they don't know that yet.

You comment to say people and beasts are free... but do not comment on whether or not God is free.

you say his will is, his 'program', Eternal Life...
which is fine...

but this does not speak to whether his willing this 'program' Eternal Life is 'Free' or determined..
you do not speak to whether there are direct and unavoidable causes for his willing this, or whether his will is simply an unconnected choice 'freely' made.
Beastt
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10/14/2014 10:49:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:28:44 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:22:37 PM, Beastt wrote:
Meaning he cannot choose. If he must always do what it best, (drowning infants, ordering armies to rape, kill and kidnap, commanding men to enslave, slaughter and rape), then he has no options.

I only posted again because I Simply wanted to better clarify to pre-empt any suggestion that he has options of things that he's capable of doing, among which he chooses.

I understand that he chooses... Just saying (as are you I imagine) that his choice, as per traditional understanding, is determined by his nature.

No. I'm pointing out that the God of doctrine cannot choose. He is guided by the need to always do what is best. He cannot make choices because he is left without options.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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10/14/2014 10:52:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 8:43:21 PM, mortsdor wrote:
Wondering what theists think on this.

I don't think God's will is free. God's nature is Good, God's nature is Loving, God knows all there is to know.

God's will Follows forth directly from his nature... is determined by his nature.

God Cannot choose the wrong thing. God's nature necessitates that he chooses the Right/Good thing.
I think understanding his will as following forth directly from his Good/loving Omniscient nature is the only sensible way of understanding it.

And if one can understand why this determined will doesn't impose upon/restrict god... (since this will Flows forth directly from his nature)
I think you should be able to understand why Determinists might feel the lack of "Free Will" isn't any big deal.... Your will following directly from your nature doesn't restrict you. You Are your nature, and your will is still yours... even if you couldn't choose something else.

Since God is omnibenevolent, "choosing the wrong thing" would mean that God is no longer God. Since it's not logically possible for God "not to be God", choosing the wrong thing is not a possible action for "God" (by definition), and thus, his omnipotence remains intact. In addition, God sets the moral standard, so his "actions" need not answer to some external entity. He answers only to himself.
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 10:56:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:49:25 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:28:44 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:22:37 PM, Beastt wrote:
Meaning he cannot choose. If he must always do what it best, (drowning infants, ordering armies to rape, kill and kidnap, commanding men to enslave, slaughter and rape), then he has no options.

I only posted again because I Simply wanted to better clarify to pre-empt any suggestion that he has options of things that he's capable of doing, among which he chooses.

I understand that he chooses... Just saying (as are you I imagine) that his choice, as per traditional understanding, is determined by his nature.

No. I'm pointing out that the God of doctrine cannot choose. He is guided by the need to always do what is best. He cannot make choices because he is left without options.

ok, uninteresting semantic distinction... we agree.

An all-Good, all knowing god will do x y z... because of his nature.

that means he's not got free will.

other than that I don't care about your semantic distinctions of what Choose means, I was trying to better explain my meaning to those who believe in god who might be considering the manner in which God would decide what to do.

Explaining that his Good/Omniscient nature would necessitate his doing the "right"/best thing.
mortsdor
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10/14/2014 11:07:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:52:15 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Since God is omnibenevolent, "choosing the wrong thing" would mean that God is no longer God. Since it's not logically possible for God "not to be God", choosing the wrong thing is not a possible action for "God" (by definition),
Later in your post you say that God sets the moral standard, so given that, you're saying God's options are (so far as logical necessity goes) open until he decides upon a given course.

As I suggested though his chosen course depends upon his nature, like Benevolence, Omniscience, etc.
s-anthony
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10/15/2014 12:02:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If God's will is greater than any other will, meaning there are no restrictions on God's will (In other words, there are no determinants.), then, God's will is not limited by fate; it is not determined to go in one direction over another.

God's will not being determined, limited, or fated must go in all directions, at once, must choose all options, and must decide on all things.

If any other will contradicted, or chose against, God's will, then, God's will would not be greatest in agency. As a lesser will is determined, or fated, to choose one option over another, it is limited by its choice, as to which God is not.
popculturepooka
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10/15/2014 12:11:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm with swinburne. If God is perfectly free and omniscient it entails that God is perfectly good. If it entails that then necessarily, God's goodness and free will are compatible.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Beastt
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10/15/2014 12:13:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:11:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm with swinburne. If God is perfectly free and omniscient it entails that God is perfectly good. If it entails that then necessarily, God's goodness and free will are compatible.

Then God can do evil?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
popculturepooka
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10/15/2014 12:24:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:13:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/15/2014 12:11:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm with swinburne. If God is perfectly free and omniscient it entails that God is perfectly good. If it entails that then necessarily, God's goodness and free will are compatible.

Then God can do evil?

no....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Beastt
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10/15/2014 12:59:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:24:42 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/15/2014 12:13:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/15/2014 12:11:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm with swinburne. If God is perfectly free and omniscient it entails that God is perfectly good. If it entails that then necessarily, God's goodness and free will are compatible.

Then God can do evil?

no....
So he does not have that ability to choose.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 6:44:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:02:24 AM, s-anthony wrote:
If God's will is greater than any other will, meaning there are no restrictions on God's will (In other words, there are no determinants.), then, God's will is not limited by fate; it is not determined to go in one direction over another.

God's will not being determined, limited, or fated must go in all directions, at once, must choose all options, and must decide on all things.

deciding on all things is not the same as choosing all options.

Unless you believe in infinite universes/creations than it's hard to see how God chose all options at once... and even so.. that God's actions could hardly be called "good" without butchering the word.

If instead god chose particular ways, are there not Reasons why he chose those ways? are those reasons not based in his nature? Would he have possibly chosen otherwise?

If any other will contradicted, or chose against, God's will, then, God's will would not be greatest in agency. As a lesser will is determined, or fated, to choose one option over another, it is limited by its choice, as to which God is not.

related to your saying god chooses all things at once I take it.

(without simply Defining god as good and leaving it at that, which is to take all content out of the word good) How can you maintain that God is "Good" if he chooses All options.
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 6:53:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:11:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm with swinburne. If God is perfectly free and omniscient it entails that God is perfectly good. If it entails that then necessarily, God's goodness and free will are compatible.

You're not being very generous with your explanations there...

and presuming that god is free before the conversation of his freedom begins.

and giving no explanation how personal freedom & omniscience entail goodness.

Also what do you mean when you say Goodness? would you define away our conventional meaning and secure it surely to, and only upon, God.

additionally I'd be interested in seeing how you'd answer the questions I posed to Swin
Unless you believe in infinite universes/creations than it's hard to see how God chose all options at once... and even so.. that God's actions could hardly be called "good" without butchering the word.

If instead god chose particular ways, are there not Reasons why he chose those ways? are those reasons not based in his nature? Would he have possibly chosen otherwise?
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 7:09:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
and, as an aside...

if god wills all things, in all manners of possibly willing them...
I wouldn't worry about being in accord with his will... you could hardly do otherwise.
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 7:18:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:02:24 AM, s-anthony wrote:
If God's will is greater than any other will, meaning there are no restrictions on God's will (In other words, there are no determinants.), then, God's will is not limited by fate; it is not determined to go in one direction over another.

also, where you come up with the idea that Greater means it can't be based in his Great-Grand nature.

That Greater means it cannot be dependent, even upon himself.

I understand that your entire argument for the nature of god probably depends wholly upon your assuming such objective valuations of "Greatness" similarly out of nothing...

but lets deal with this supposedly objective measure of what entails Greatness first ;)
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 7:29:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I agree that there is a "great-monster" that lies behind all things..
greatness as in Big, and all-enfolding, at least.

but naming it as having particular characteristics like Benevolence, Omniscience etc. relies upon sticking your own valuations into this great-monster... which is without reason.

we cannot rightly speak on the particular nature of the Great-monster ... so we should shut up about it.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/15/2014 7:46:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/14/2014 10:43:40 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/14/2014 10:38:25 PM, bornofgod wrote:
God's will is His program called Eternal Life. God's characters ( people and beasts ) are free of everything but of course, they don't know that yet.

You comment to say people and beasts are free... but do not comment on whether or not God is free.

you say his will is, his 'program', Eternal Life...
which is fine...

but this does not speak to whether his willing this 'program' Eternal Life is 'Free' or determined..
you do not speak to whether there are direct and unavoidable causes for his willing this, or whether his will is simply an unconnected choice 'freely' made.

I AM the Creator of EVERYTHING that you observe, hear, taste, smell, touch, and feel.

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 7:58:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 7:46:08 AM, bornofgod wrote:
I AM the Creator of EVERYTHING that you observe, hear, taste, smell, touch, and feel.

Understood, doesn't speak to the OP though.

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.

Doesn't speak to whether or not God's will is based in/tied to his Godly nature...

Doesn't speak to whether or not god has Free Will, or if his will flows forth directly from his godly nature.
bornofgod
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10/15/2014 8:02:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 7:58:15 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/15/2014 7:46:08 AM, bornofgod wrote:
I AM the Creator of EVERYTHING that you observe, hear, taste, smell, touch, and feel.

Understood, doesn't speak to the OP though.

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.

Doesn't speak to whether or not God's will is based in/tied to his Godly nature...

Doesn't speak to whether or not god has Free Will, or if his will flows forth directly from his godly nature.

Some of you are too stupid to understand the answer during this age. Be patient and wait until after you die, then you will understand who you are in Me, your Creator.
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 8:16:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 8:02:46 AM, bornofgod wrote:
Some of you are too stupid to understand the answer during this age. Be patient and wait until after you die, then you will understand who you are in Me, your Creator.

Doesn't address whether the creator has free will, or whether his will flows forth directly from his nature.
mortsdor
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10/15/2014 8:22:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 8:16:19 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/15/2014 8:02:46 AM, bornofgod wrote:
Some of you are too stupid to understand the answer during this age. Be patient and wait until after you die, then you will understand who you are in Me, your Creator.

Doesn't address whether the creator has free will, or whether his will flows forth directly from his nature.

However it's clear that you're not going to address that.

And that's alright I suppose. You've said what you think, you've said how it is.

If you're not going to comment on whether or not God's will is Free or determined by his nature, then this thread isn't the proper forum for your comments.

Rather you should make a thread explaining that which you wish to discuss.
bornofgod
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10/15/2014 8:28:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 8:22:08 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/15/2014 8:16:19 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/15/2014 8:02:46 AM, bornofgod wrote:
Some of you are too stupid to understand the answer during this age. Be patient and wait until after you die, then you will understand who you are in Me, your Creator.

Doesn't address whether the creator has free will, or whether his will flows forth directly from his nature.

However it's clear that you're not going to address that.

And that's alright I suppose. You've said what you think, you've said how it is.

If you're not going to comment on whether or not God's will is Free or determined by his nature, then this thread isn't the proper forum for your comments.

Rather you should make a thread explaining that which you wish to discuss.

I have made a proper comment in this thread but it's obvious you can't handle the Truth. Your arrogance proves that.
s-anthony
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10/15/2014 9:12:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 12:02:24 AM, s-anthony wrote:
If God's will is greater than any other will, meaning there are no restrictions on God's will (In other words, there are no determinants.), then, God's will is not limited by fate; it is not determined to go in one direction over another.

God's will not being determined, limited, or fated must go in all directions, at once, must choose all options, and must decide on all things.

deciding on all things is not the same as choosing all options.

So, are you saying all options are not decided? If so, how does one decide on all things?

Unless you believe in infinite universes/creations than it's hard to see how God chose all options at once... and even so.. that God's actions could hardly be called "good" without butchering the word.

I believe in infinite and finite universes, worlds I can define and worlds beyond my descriptions. I believe God is infinite in God transcends my capacity for defining, and I believe God is finite in God has meaning and value to me. Therefore, I believe God makes incomprehensible decisions and decisions I can understand.

If instead god chose particular ways, are there not Reasons why he chose those ways? are those reasons not based in his nature? Would he have possibly chosen otherwise?

I do not believe God chooses anything in particular.

If any other will contradicted, or chose against, God's will, then, God's will would not be greatest in agency. As a lesser will is determined, or fated, to choose one option over another, it is limited by its choice, as to which God is not.

related to your saying god chooses all things at once I take it.

(without simply Defining god as good and leaving it at that, which is to take all content out of the word good) How can you maintain that God is "Good" if he chooses All options.

I never said God was only good.
popculturepooka
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10/15/2014 10:03:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/15/2014 6:53:22 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 10/15/2014 12:11:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm with swinburne. If God is perfectly free and omniscient it entails that God is perfectly good. If it entails that then necessarily, God's goodness and free will are compatible.

You're not being very generous with your explanations there...

and presuming that god is free before the conversation of his freedom begins.

God is defined as omniscient, omnipotent (which Swinburne thinks omnipotence entails perfect freedom) , perfectly free, etc. That's simply contained in the defintion. It's up to someone to show how all these properties can't be instantiated in one being.


and giving no explanation how personal freedom & omniscience entail goodness.


"It follows from God'ss perfect freedom that he will be subject to no influences deterring him from doing what he sees reason to do. That is what he believes good to do; and since being omniscient, he will always know what is good, he will always do what is good. He will be perfectly good."

-- Swinburne

Also what do you mean when you say Goodness? would you define away our conventional meaning and secure it surely to, and only upon, God.


"A person P is perfectly good if and only if (a) P is so constituted that P always does the morally best action (when there is one), and (b) P is so constituted that P does no morally bad action"

-- Swinburne

And we arent' talking about semantical theory of goodness. We are talking about the identification of God with goodness itself. That is an ontological theisis.


additionally I'd be interested in seeing how you'd answer the questions I posed to Swin
Unless you believe in infinite universes/creations than it's hard to see how God chose all options at once... and even so.. that God's actions could hardly be called "good" without butchering the word.


No one has ever said God chooses all options at once. And I'm not sure what you are referring to with the latter half of that...why couldn't they be considered good?

If instead god chose particular ways, are there not Reasons why he chose those ways? are those reasons not based in his nature? Would he have possibly chosen otherwise?

There could be equally good options such that he can choose between options. Like if we assuem that creating solar systems is a good thing, God COULD have created one more solar system then there is right now, but at some point he had to make an arbitrary choice.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!