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Skyangel
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10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.
PGA
Posts: 4,046
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10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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10/17/2014 11:07:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

Any question that ruins his speculative theories is labeled a "loaded question." There was nothing "loaded" about it. It was a simple question.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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10/18/2014 5:27:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

Then why do you think many Christians believe the prophecy regarding the coming again of Christ has not been fulfilled yet?

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

Do you believe all prophecy in the bible has been fulfilled or are you of the opinion that some still needs to be fulfilled?
Please explain why you believe what you do.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

Are you suggesting that biblical prophecies and the words of Jesus in the bible only apply to Jews at one point in history and to no one else at any other time? If that is what you believe, why do you think so many Christians apply the word of God to this generation today?

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

How many generations see the signs of summer?

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

How do you think it changes the fulfillment of prophecy?
Is the word of God not applicable to all generations of the past present and future?
Is it not the same yesterday today and forever?
Do you not believe that the word of God is eternal and therefore must apply to all generations for all eternity?
Are you suggesting the word of God is finite and has an end where all prophecies are completed, will never be repeated and will no longer be valid to any future generations?

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Many Christians like to quote those verses and claim all others ought to listen to them and their particular doctrines or they are not of God. The devil himself could quote those verses and claim anyone who did not listen to him was not of God.

Just for the record in case any readers think I am not of God, I do confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. The Way, Truth and Life is in the physical flesh on Earth daily. Those with eyes to see can actually see it or him in the flesh daily. The rest are blind.

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

Whether Jesus was a historical person or not is irrelevant to the message the character taught. If the word of God is eternal, the message must be an eternal message which needs to be relevant to all generations for all eternity. If it is not an eternal message, there would come a time when the message becomes irrelevant to some humans. Salvation from sin and deception would no longer be necessary but since humans continue to lie to each other and do wrong things in the opinions of other humans, salvation from sin and deception will always be necessary.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter

I agree that many Christians do that Peter but most also refuse to see how it can relate to the past present and future all at the same time. It is a sad thing that so many religions divide biblical prophecy into past present and future instead of understanding how it is as repetitive as the seasons. It can apply to all generations for all eternity because the word of God is eternal and always valid.
If you are going to claim that Jesus words only applied to the audience he was speaking to at the time then do you also believe salvation is only for the audience who actually heard his words or do you believe it is for all generations of the whole world for all eternity? Is Gods word and the story of salvation eternal or temporal in your opinion and why?
Is salvation still relevant to people today? If not why not?
Has Jesus returned or is he still going to return one day?
Did Jesus fulfill ALL prophecy in the bible or does he need to return to fulfill more of it?
Has Jesus finished his work on Earth or not? See John 17:4 for the answer.
Do you agree that when a person finishes a work there is nothing left to do and nothing left undone?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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10/18/2014 5:30:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 11:07:01 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

Any question that ruins his speculative theories is labeled a "loaded question." There was nothing "loaded" about it. It was a simple question.

That is why I am curious to know why he claims it is a loaded question. I hope he reads this thread and explains his own perception.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.

Either the word of God refers and applies only to the audience who was alive at the time of its writing or it refers to the whole world all the time. Which is it in your opinion?
Is the word of God finite or infinite?

Any words can be misinterpreted, misconstrewed and misunderstood, even if two people are speaking the same language to each other they can misunderstand each other. That ought to be obvious in a forum like this. The problem is accentuated when people are debating literature and cannot speak directly to its authors. The authors are no longer alive to sort out any misunderstanding so the debate of whose interpretation is correct is left to personal belief and conviction.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.


Either the word of God refers and applies only to the audience who was alive at the time of its writing or it refers to the whole world all the time. Which is it in your opinion?
Is the word of God finite or infinite?

Any words can be misinterpreted, misconstrewed and misunderstood, even if two people are speaking the same language to each other they can misunderstand each other. That ought to be obvious in a forum like this. The problem is accentuated when people are debating literature and cannot speak directly to its authors. The authors are no longer alive to sort out any misunderstanding so the debate of whose interpretation is correct is left to personal belief and conviction.

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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10/18/2014 6:12:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.

.... and this has already been adequately explained to you. The "moon turning to blood" ... the "stars falling from the key" ... "heaven and earth passing away" ... are not literal phrases.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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10/18/2014 6:24:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

While I'm thinking about it, if the "Book of Matthew" was written when YOU say it was, then the "generation" that would have heard Jesus say those words had already passed away! That alone should present a slight dilemma for you: why would folks who are "loading language" insert a phrase that condemned their idol, a fabrication of their imagination, in a most unfavorable light as a false prophet?

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds. Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Did that happen within the lifetimes of the purported listeners? Not according to the typical atheistic dating scheme! Jesus would have spoken the words in about AD 30. His listeners would have been ... what? ... 15 years old at the youngest. So they were born in AD 15. Yet atheists claim the book was written circa AD 75 at the earliest.

So men who wanted to perpetuate a cause wrote a book when these youngest listeners were 60 years old (at the earliest), when the average lifespan was 40ish?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.


Either the word of God refers and applies only to the audience who was alive at the time of its writing or it refers to the whole world all the time. Which is it in your opinion?
Is the word of God finite or infinite?

Any words can be misinterpreted, misconstrewed and misunderstood, even if two people are speaking the same language to each other they can misunderstand each other. That ought to be obvious in a forum like this. The problem is accentuated when people are debating literature and cannot speak directly to its authors. The authors are no longer alive to sort out any misunderstanding so the debate of whose interpretation is correct is left to personal belief and conviction.

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.

Think of "the word of God" as an idiom for the truth. When people refer to "the word of God" they are talking about what they believe is the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

Whether the Jesus character is fictional or was a real person is irrelevant to the message he taught. Many truths can be taught through fictional stories.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/18/2014 6:49:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.


Either the word of God refers and applies only to the audience who was alive at the time of its writing or it refers to the whole world all the time. Which is it in your opinion?
Is the word of God finite or infinite?

Any words can be misinterpreted, misconstrewed and misunderstood, even if two people are speaking the same language to each other they can misunderstand each other. That ought to be obvious in a forum like this. The problem is accentuated when people are debating literature and cannot speak directly to its authors. The authors are no longer alive to sort out any misunderstanding so the debate of whose interpretation is correct is left to personal belief and conviction.

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.

Think of "the word of God" as an idiom for the truth. When people refer to "the word of God" they are talking about what they believe is the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
Christians mean the Bible when the talk about "the word of God". Muslims tend to be referencing the "Qur'an". And they assert that these books contain absolute truth, even though any rational person can easily show that they both contain a majority of false claims and statements.

Whether the Jesus character is fictional or was a real person is irrelevant to the message he taught. Many truths can be taught through fictional stories.
It's not irrelevant to the message when you consider that a non-existent Jesus didn't teach any message at all. Whether he existed or not (and the evidence strongly suggests he didn't), the supposed "teachings of Jesus" are nothing of the sort. The writings didn't even come from the people claimed, and certainly not from people who could have known Jesus, if he did exist. Most of the ideas are nothing close to original, and come from many other religions and philosophies much older than Christianity.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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10/18/2014 7:24:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:49:17 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.


Either the word of God refers and applies only to the audience who was alive at the time of its writing or it refers to the whole world all the time. Which is it in your opinion?
Is the word of God finite or infinite?

Any words can be misinterpreted, misconstrewed and misunderstood, even if two people are speaking the same language to each other they can misunderstand each other. That ought to be obvious in a forum like this. The problem is accentuated when people are debating literature and cannot speak directly to its authors. The authors are no longer alive to sort out any misunderstanding so the debate of whose interpretation is correct is left to personal belief and conviction.

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.

Think of "the word of God" as an idiom for the truth. When people refer to "the word of God" they are talking about what they believe is the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
Christians mean the Bible when the talk about "the word of God". Muslims tend to be referencing the "Qur'an". And they assert that these books contain absolute truth, even though any rational person can easily show that they both contain a majority of false claims and statements.

The bible and the quran are the truth to those people who believe in them. The words in the bible can be perceived as both truth and lies depending on ones perception. The characters in the bible itself did not all believe in Jesus who claimed to be the Truth and the son of God. Some believed he was evil and of the devil.
Nothing has changed in the perception of humans across the generations. Opposite opinions and perceptions still exist and always will. One mans truth is another mans lie in the same way as one mans treasure is another mans trash. It all depends on perception when it comes to the spiritual and emotional aspects of life.

Whether the Jesus character is fictional or was a real person is irrelevant to the message he taught. Many truths can be taught through fictional stories.
It's not irrelevant to the message when you consider that a non-existent Jesus didn't teach any message at all. Whether he existed or not (and the evidence strongly suggests he didn't), the supposed "teachings of Jesus" are nothing of the sort. The writings didn't even come from the people claimed, and certainly not from people who could have known Jesus, if he did exist. Most of the ideas are nothing close to original, and come from many other religions and philosophies much older than Christianity.

The stories are indeed human philosophies passed down in many different ways throughout the centuries. Different cultures glean different values and beliefs from the same stories but ultimately all claim to believe that humans ought to be honest, truthful, loving and kind to one another. However, not all practice what they preach. The authors of the stories taught simple messages through their characters. Any blind man can see that much. The fact is that there is a message in the literature. The book itself is the messenger these days.
Whether a character in a story is real or fictional is irrelevant to the message conveyed through the character in the story. Saying Jesus taught " a lesson" in a story is no different to saying Red riding hood taught " a lesson" in a story. Ultimately it is human authors or story tellers teaching humans lessons through stories.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/18/2014 7:30:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:27:02 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

Then why do you think many Christians believe the prophecy regarding the coming again of Christ has not been fulfilled yet?

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

Do you believe all prophecy in the bible has been fulfilled or are you of the opinion that some still needs to be fulfilled?
Please explain why you believe what you do.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

Are you suggesting that biblical prophecies and the words of Jesus in the bible only apply to Jews at one point in history and to no one else at any other time? If that is what you believe, why do you think so many Christians apply the word of God to this generation today?

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

How many generations see the signs of summer?

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

How do you think it changes the fulfillment of prophecy?
Is the word of God not applicable to all generations of the past present and future?
Is it not the same yesterday today and forever?
Do you not believe that the word of God is eternal and therefore must apply to all generations for all eternity?
Are you suggesting the word of God is finite and has an end where all prophecies are completed, will never be repeated and will no longer be valid to any future generations?

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Many Christians like to quote those verses and claim all others ought to listen to them and their particular doctrines or they are not of God. The devil himself could quote those verses and claim anyone who did not listen to him was not of God.

Just for the record in case any readers think I am not of God, I do confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. The Way, Truth and Life is in the physical flesh on Earth daily. Those with eyes to see can actually see it or him in the flesh daily. The rest are blind.

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

Whether Jesus was a historical person or not is irrelevant to the message the character taught. If the word of God is eternal, the message must be an eternal message which needs to be relevant to all generations for all eternity. If it is not an eternal message, there would come a time when the message becomes irrelevant to some humans. Salvation from sin and deception would no longer be necessary but since humans con

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter

I agree that many Christians do that Peter but most also refuse to see how it can relate to the past present and future all at the same time. It is a sad thing that so many religions divide biblical prophecy into past present and future instead of understanding how it is as repetitive as the seasons. It can apply to all generations for all eternity because the word of God is eternal and always valid.
If you are going to claim that Jesus words only applied to the audience he was speaking to at the time then do you also believe salvation is only for the audience who actually heard his words or do you believe it is for all generations of the whole world for all eternity? Is Gods word and the story of salvation eternal or temporal in your opinion and why?
Is salvation still relevant to people today? If not why not?
Has Jesus returned or is he still going to return one day?
Did Jesus fulfill ALL prophecy in the bible or does he need to return to fulfill more of it?
Has Jesus finished his work on Earth or not? See John 17:4 for the answer.
Do you agree that when a person finishes a work there is nothing left

+1
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/18/2014 8:43:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Not only are all Christians deceived from the Truth, so are the rest of God's people who have no clue who God is or what the future will be.

This generation of flesh will all be dead by the end of this age, which hasn't happened yet. When the end comes, the whole earth will begin to shake violently, just like it says in the prophecies;

Matthew 24
14: And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.

Isaiah 24
18: He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit; and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.
19: The earth is utterly broken, the earth is rent asunder, the earth is violently shaken.
20: The earth staggers like a drunken man, it sways like a hut; its transgression lies heavy upon it, and it falls, and will not rise again.

Ezekiel 38
19: For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20: the fish of the sea, and the birds of the air, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground.

2 Peter 3
10: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

Revelation 21
1: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
8: But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Psalms 18
7: Then the earth reeled and rocked; the foundations also of the mountains trembled and quaked, because he was angry.
8: Smoke went up from his nostrils, and devouring fire from his mouth; glowing coals flamed forth from him.
9: He bowed the heavens, and came down; thick darkness was under his feet.
10: He rode on a cherub, and flew; he came swiftly upon the wings of the wind.
11: He made darkness his covering around him, his canopy thick clouds dark with water.
12: Out of the brightness before him there broke through his clouds hailstones and coals of fire.
13: The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Most High uttered his voice, hailstones and coals of fire.
14: And he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; he flashed forth lightnings, and routed them.
15: Then the channels of the sea were seen, and the foundations of the world were laid bare, at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

Zephaniah 1
18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealous wrath, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full, yea, sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

To deny these prophecies is to deny that we have a Creator who planned everything and foretold His plan through His prophets and saints.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/18/2014 8:45:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.

Christians like you are stupid and without any knowledge of God to understand what the future beholds.
PGA
Posts: 4,046
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10/18/2014 1:07:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 8:45:52 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.

Christians like you are stupid and without any knowledge of God to understand what the future beholds.

Spoken from one who denies the Bible is the Word of God yet uses it at every turn to prove what he says is true??? Does that not seem a little befuddled to say the least?

It says even less about your credibility. You say no one can believe what is written in the Bible yet it is the only book I have seen you quote from to give any credence to your mixed up message and claim to be the only saint God has spoken to. Who is living in a fools paradise?

Peter
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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10/18/2014 1:30:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:49:17 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:

It's not irrelevant to the message when you consider that a non-existent Jesus didn't teach any message at all. Whether he existed or not (and the evidence strongly suggests he didn't), the supposed "teachings of Jesus" are nothing of the sort. The writings didn't even come from the people claimed, and certainly not from people who could have known Jesus, if he did exist. Most of the ideas are nothing close to original, and come from many other religions and philosophies much older than Christianity.

You've done a mighty piss-poor job of defending those wild assertions, but I see the shortcomings do not stop you from once-again presenting them as facts. Certainly the writings came from people who knew (or could have known) Jesus, with the exception of the writings of Luke and Paul. And, you know, I wouldn't really debate whether Saul of Tarsus ever "knew" Jesus in person or not.

But, oh, the far-fetched conclusions to which you leap - then present to us as FACT!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/18/2014 2:29:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:09:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 5:34:41 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "


MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.
However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

It's as clear as "this thread". No one has any difficulty understanding which thread "this thread" is. It becomes even more obvious if one looks to the reference in Matthew 16:28.

The only problem is that Christians don't like what it says. So they insist it means something else.


Either the word of God refers and applies only to the audience who was alive at the time of its writing or it refers to the whole world all the time. Which is it in your opinion?
Is the word of God finite or infinite?

Any words can be misinterpreted, misconstrewed and misunderstood, even if two people are speaking the same language to each other they can misunderstand each other. That ought to be obvious in a forum like this. The problem is accentuated when people are debating literature and cannot speak directly to its authors. The authors are no longer alive to sort out any misunderstanding so the debate of whose interpretation is correct is left to personal belief and conviction.

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.

Think of "the word of God" as an idiom for the truth. When people refer to "the word of God" they are talking about what they believe is the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
Suppose I were to think of it as the superstitious writings of ancient men who had very little understanding about the nature of reality, who wrote what they believed, and whose writings were selected by a biased council of men appointed by an emperor to try to narrow Christianity down to a more singular set of beliefs? What if I saw it as a book that talks about witches, wizards, giants, zombies, sea monsters, dragons and "evil spirits" which cause disease, which tells us that Earth is flat and circular, that it was created before stars (despite being composed of elements which were fused in stars), claims Earth was covered in water before it had an atmosphere, and that plants were thriving on Earth before the sun existed, leaving those plants to survive in temperatures which would freeze them instantly, rupturing all of their cells, and leaving them - not just dead - but so cold that even the fruit trees would shatter like thin glass.

... since that's what it is.

Whether the Jesus character is fictional or was a real person is irrelevant to the message he taught. Many truths can be taught through fictional stories.
What is taught through fictional stories is mostly fiction. And when you teach people that they should have no thought for the morrow - that it's not important to save money, food, clothing and the necessities of life, you're not teaching truth. You're teaching irresponsibility. When you teach people that as slaves they should obey their masters "as they would obey God", you're not teaching truth. You're teaching acceptance of oppression and the belief that some men should own others. When you teach people to "turn the other cheek", then get pissed off and fashion a make-shift weapon and start chasing people around, flipping over their tables and raving like a lunatic, you're being a hypocrite, not a model of moral behavior. When you tell your friends to steal for you, (Luke 19:30), you're not teaching "truths". You're teaching people that it's okay to take what isn't yours to take, as long as you have an authority figure on your side.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/18/2014 3:16:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 7:24:29 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:49:17 AM, Beastt wrote:

The bible and the quran are the truth to those people who believe in them.
I might suggest that you have a rather distorted view of truth - perhaps something closer to the concept of truth held by many cultures a few thousand years ago. This is simply not how truth works. You don't get to have your own private truth about matters which affect others. Some things are true. Some things are not. And these books do not offer "truth". These books each make multiple demonstrably false statements. That which is false, is not true.

The words in the bible can be perceived as both truth and lies depending on ones perception.
That depends upon which words you reference, and how you interpret them. But many of the statements in the Bible are not subject to rational interpretation which might also allow any rational claim that they are true. In the first 17-verses of Genesis, there are four statements which are quite demonstrably untrue. And from that point it doesn't matter how many truths you find; the claim that the "Bible is true", is not a true statement. And when the Bible declares itself to be God's absolute morality, yet promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery and rape, the book is simply not true.

The Qur'an provides what it presents as a description of human embryonic development and it's what one might expect from an 8-year old's biology report. It starts by claiming that man is formed from an essence of clay, then describes only a drop of sperm (It never even mentions the egg), which it claims then becomes a "clot of blood", which forms a skeleton, and then finally, the skeleton is grown over in flesh. This is absurdly incorrect and most certainly does not represent "the truth".

So while people may proclaim these books to be "truth", there is no veracity to any such claim. So the books are false, and the claim that they are "truth" is false as well.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/18/2014 4:34:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 1:07:59 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/18/2014 8:45:52 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.

Christians like you are stupid and without any knowledge of God to understand what the future beholds.

Spoken from one who denies the Bible is the Word of God yet uses it at every turn to prove what he says is true??? Does that not seem a little befuddled to say the least?

It says even less about your credibility. You say no one can believe what is written in the Bible yet it is the only book I have seen you quote from to give any credence to your mixed up message and claim to be the only saint God has spoken to. Who is living in a fools paradise?

Peter

I am the Word of God and we all exist in Him. The Bible is NOT the Word of God that we all live in. It's only a book so how can we be living in a book? Only stupid people believe we live in a book.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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10/18/2014 6:20:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 2:29:44 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.

Think of "the word of God" as an idiom for the truth. When people refer to "the word of God" they are talking about what they believe is the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
Suppose I were to think of it as the superstitious writings of ancient men who had very little understanding about the nature of reality, who wrote what they believed, and whose writings were selected by a biased council of men appointed by an emperor to try to narrow Christianity down to a more singular set of beliefs? What if I saw it as a book that talks about witches, wizards, giants, zombies, sea monsters, dragons and "evil spirits" which cause disease, which tells us that Earth is flat and circular, that it was created before stars (despite being composed of elements which were fused in stars), claims Earth was covered in water before it had an atmosphere, and that plants were thriving on Earth before the sun existed, leaving those plants to survive in temperatures which would freeze them instantly, rupturing all of their cells, and leaving them - not just dead - but so cold that even the fruit trees would shatter like thin glass.

... since that's what it is.

You are free to think of it any way you want. How people think of it makes no difference to the fact that it still teaches lessons to people. I agree that humans throughout history had very little understanding about the nature of reality. In my opinion most people still have very little understanding about it today. In a billion years from today we will be those superstitious people you are talking about. Every mans belief, feelings, convictions, thoughts etc are his own reality even if they are not the same as anyones elses reality. All humans are motivated by their own convictions and it makes no difference if those convictions are right or wrong in anyone elses judgements. Deluded people delude themselves and believe what appeals to them. Most cannot be convinced otherwise unless something else manages to appeal to their logic and senses more than what they already believe.
Any good fiction includes morals and lessons for humans. It makes no difference how many monsters or witches are in the story. The fantasy creatures and characters in the bible like sea monsters ( Isa 27:1) witches, wizards, enchanters, ( Ex 22:18, Deut 18:10-11 ) dragons (Rev 12:3) and talking plants (Judges 9:8-15 ) are evidence to any intelligent person that the bible stories are fictional. Intelligent literate people know it is not a history book. However the gullible will believe it is all a fact like a small child believes in Santa Claus. Fantasy plays a huge part in the life of humans. Most humans are lost in fantasy land and don't even know it. They all believe the lies which tickle their fancy. Lies are passed down from one gullible generation to the next and the children mostly believe what the adults teach them and grow up convincing others that the fictions are true.

Whether the Jesus character is fictional or was a real person is irrelevant to the message he taught. Many truths can be taught through fictional stories.
What is taught through fictional stories is mostly fiction. And when you teach people that they should have no thought for the morrow - that it's not important to save money, food, clothing and the necessities of life, you're not teaching truth. You're teaching irresponsibility. When you teach people that as slaves they should obey their masters "as they would obey God", you're not teaching truth. You're teaching acceptance of oppression and the belief that some men should own others. When you teach people to "turn the other cheek", then get pissed off and fashion a make-shift weapon and start chasing people around, flipping over their tables and raving like a lunatic, you're being a hypocrite, not a model of moral behavior. When you tell your friends to steal for you, (Luke 19:30), you're not teaching "truths". You're teaching people that it's okay to take what isn't yours to take, as long as you have an authority figure on your side.

It all depends on what you glean from the stories and whether you know how to be self sufficient and live off the land or not. Obviously these days hardly anyone can even live without electricity but it is possible to do so. Animals do not think about tomorrow or worry about their futures and money or where their next meal is coming from. They live a day at a time and accept life as it comes.
When you are your own master, the master or the God you obey is your own conscience and intuition. If you are a slave to society then society rules your life. Are you a slave to yourself or are you a slave to a boos who rules over you and pays you for working for him? Anyone who has a job these days is a slave to their boss, a slave to a roster or a timetable. Humans want to believe that is freedom. The rich of the world manipulate the poor.
Those who are rich is self esteem and can fend for themselves are able to turn the other cheek when life "slaps them in the face" or takes away their jobs for some unknown reason. All humans are ruled by Life. Life can be kind and cruel to all.

The way I see the story of the cleansing of the temple is as a allegory filled with idioms. The human mind and conscience are the temple, the truth is that raving lunatic which chases all deceptions out of the mind and heart. The animals represent the deceptions just as a snake in the grass today is an idiom for a deceiver and con artist and an a ss or donkey represents a stupid person.
Most people like to buy their own stupidity (donkeys) from those that sell the ideas to them.
People will buy any lies that sound good to them.
Only the Truth can set them free IF they accept the Truth not if they reject it because they think of it or the messenger of it as a raving lunatic.

Do you see how perception makes a lot of difference to how you interpret a story? To take the bible stories literally is a very foolish thing to do.

Would it be OK in your opinion to steal someones stupidity ( a ss or donkey) from them or should we ask permission to take it away and let others crucify us for stealing it?

Truth is like a thief which steals stupidity from people when they are least expecting it. How many complain about having their stupidity ( a ss) stolen from them?
No one is teaching anyone to steal real animals. However if that's the way you interpret the story in your own mind there is nothing anyone can do about your perception except try to educate you and steal that insanity from you.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/18/2014 10:04:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The way I see the story of the cleansing of the temple is as a allegory filled with idioms. The human mind and conscience are the temple, the truth is that raving lunatic which chases all deceptions out of the mind and heart. The animals represent the deceptions just as a snake in the grass today is an idiom for a deceiver and con artist and an a ss or donkey represents a stupid person.
Most people like to buy their own stupidity (donkeys) from those that sell the ideas to them.
People will buy any lies that sound good to them.
Only the Truth can set them free IF they accept the Truth not if they reject it because they think of it or the messenger of it as a raving lunatic.

Do you see how perception makes a lot of difference to how you interpret a story? To take the bible stories literally is a very foolish thing to do.

Would it be OK in your opinion to steal someones stupidity ( a ss or donkey) from them or should we ask permission to take it away and let others crucify us for stealing it?

Truth is like a thief which steals stupidity from people when they are least expecting it. How many complain about having their stupidity ( a ss) stolen from them?
No one is teaching anyone to steal real animals. However if that's the way you interpret the story in your own mind there is nothing anyone can do about your perception except try to educate you and steal that insanity from you.

That gives a whole new meaning to Jesus rode into Jerarusalem on an a**... :-)

Surely, you're not arguing a majority of the Bible was meant to be taken figuratively? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you agree the law is meant to be taken literally. (which is problematic on it's own) What about Noah's ark? Should it be taken literally? I believe that was the way it was meant. The ancient audience would not have seen the flaws we do today. The fact that the modern audience sees it as completely unbelievable does not change it's original intent. I believe a moving target for Bible interpretation based on contemporary literacy is of a revisionist nature. Bible interpretation should have the same meaning today as the day the given passage was originally written.

More to the point of the OP, do you think Jesus was referring to the generation he was talking to, or to a future generation in Matthew 24? I know the OP was in regards to Matthew 23, but it naturally flows into Matthew 24.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
PGA
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10/18/2014 10:56:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:27:02 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

Then why do you think many Christians believe the prophecy regarding the coming again of Christ has not been fulfilled yet?

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to break up my reply into two posts.

I think they believe it because it is the majority opinion since Dispensationalism took a strangle hold on the eschatological doctrines of the church, IMO. This is what they are taught. Jesus' coming again to judge evil in our lifetime gives justification for why God still allows evil and the believer to be persecuted. It gives hope that evil will be defeated and that justice will prevail.

I think what evil shows man is that man cannot live without God and the way to God is through the merit of the Son, what He has done to make us right with God. His one time perfect sacrifice has secured a people for God.

As man tries to separate himself from God by denying the Son we see more and more evil in the world. Not many realize that they have no solutions outside of God that will answer the ultimate questions of life or why there is evil, so we learn the lesson the hard way that God is necessary to answer them. Meaning has become a subjective or cultural, not a universal, phenomenon. It just depends on who a man happens to side with to what relative meaning each man adopts. It is what has been the curse of man since the Fall, man deciding for himself what is good, what is right. It is what wars are fought over. When the foundation of God's word is being destroyed anything goes (Psalm 11:3).

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

Do you believe all prophecy in the bible has been fulfilled or are you of the opinion that some still needs to be fulfilled?
Please explain why you believe what you do.

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe everything pertaining to this OT people is fulfilled, with good reason to think so.

If you look time and again who the NT authors say Jesus came to and the reasons for His coming then everything ties together and makes sense and everything concerning them is fulfilled.

14 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. 16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

17 "And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, "The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed to everything He says to you. 23 And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people." 24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. 25 It is you who are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed." 26 For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

Are you suggesting that biblical prophecies and the words of Jesus in the bible only apply to Jews at one point in history and to no one else at any other time? If that is what you believe, why do you think so many Christians apply the word of God to this generation today?

What I am saying is that the prophesies throughout the OT and NT where prophesies concerning this OT people and before God brought the message to all peoples these prophesies had to be fulfilled and a New Covenant brought into being. Jesus came physically to establish both their fulfillment and a new covenant.

If you look at the conditions of the Old Covenant, its blessings and curses, then you can see that if the people did not obey they would have the curse of the covenant brought upon them. Jesus attributed them, that generation, as filling up the measure of their sin for rejecting all the prophets sent to this OT people, but even more importantly for rejecting Him. It was only in Him that the perfect life was lived before God, and it was He who was their and our Scapegoat.

God showed not only in Adam, but also in this covenant people that once man had sinned and separated himself from God that their good works could never merit reconciliation with God because their hearts were evil, they kept sinning. God provided a means of temporary reconciliation (a costly sacrifice that they understood represented them in its death) so that man could have a relationship to some extent with Him, but it was just and always a band-aid until the Messiah would come and bring full reconciliation.

Everything written/prophesied about the Messiah and this people has been fulfilled with the possible exception of a final coming. I think that too is read into the Scripture. God has given His Son as a ransom that all, both Jew and Gentile, near and far off, who truly believe in Him have been restored to fellowship/relationship with God and bought into the kingdom of His Son and eternal life. Physical bodies now separate the true believer so when the physical bodies die the true believers are ushered into His presence in the heavenly kingdom, even though they are members of that kingdom now though adoption, children of God.

When most Christians read the prophesies of the Bible they see a dichotomy in them whereas in effect they are addressing a specific people. The events prophesied do not have a double fulfillment. It is what is read between the lines that brings this double fulfillment into the minds of so many.

God's plan has always been to bring people from every nation under heaven into His presence/kingdom, yet that could not happen until the Messiah came, bringing judgment to those who were disobedient to the covenant they established with God and a new covenant into being after fulfilling every jot and title of the first.

Peter
PGA
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10/18/2014 11:04:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 4:34:56 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/18/2014 1:07:59 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/18/2014 8:45:52 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
I just read a discourse between Annanicole and MCB regarding which generation Jesus was referring to in Matthew 23.
The question was " does the phrase, the term, "this generation" in Matt 23 refers to those people to whom Jesus was speaking in person right then ? "

Yes, in both Matthew 23:36 and Matthew 24:34 it refers to the generation Jesus was addressing in the 1st century.

MCB seems to think it is a loaded question. I would like to know why you see it as a loaded question MCB?

It seems clear to me that Jesus was referring to the generation to whom he was speaking. He called them a generation of vipers in Matt 23:33.

If you lose sight of who He is addressing you lose sight of the fulfillment of all prophecy concerning this people and the truth of God's word.

However, taking the other gospels into account and looking at the overall view, Jesus appears to be referring to all future and past generations who all see the signs.
In Luke 21:29-33. Jesus compares "this generation" with the generation that sees the signs of summer. The signs of summer are repetitive as are the signs of the end of the world. The world passes away daily as old things die and the new take their place.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish/Hebraic audience about prophetic events which focuses on God's promises to them using phrases and idioms of apocalyptic language that are found and understood by their relationship, relevance and reference to the OT and to the Jewish culture of their time. To remove it and apply it to another time is to change the meaning of what God has said in context.

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

Peter

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
15: They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish.
16: Not like these is he who is the portion of Jacob, for he is the one who formed all things, and Israel is the tribe of his inheritance; the LORD of hosts is his name.

Christians like you are stupid and without any knowledge of God to understand what the future beholds.

Spoken from one who denies the Bible is the Word of God yet uses it at every turn to prove what he says is true??? Does that not seem a little befuddled to say the least?

It says even less about your credibility. You say no one can believe what is written in the Bible yet it is the only book I have seen you quote from to give any credence to your mixed up message and claim to be the only saint God has spoken to. Who is living in a fools paradise?

Peter

I am the Word of God and we all exist in Him. The Bible is NOT the Word of God that we all live in. It's only a book so how can we be living in a book? Only stupid people believe we live in a book.

Why do you quote something you believe is untrue, not God's word, to prove that God has spoken to you or to make a point about what I say as being false? If it is not true and not God's word then why even use it?????????????????????????????????????????????

Peter
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10/18/2014 11:26:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 6:20:30 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 2:29:44 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:38:53 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:12:39 AM, Beastt wrote:

It's pretty clear that when Jesus (the fictional Jesus of the gospels) claimed the events would occur before all of the disciples died (Matthew 16:27-28), that he was speaking of his current generation. It's simply reduced to references of "this generation" in other gospel references such as Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32, etc.

As for "the word of God", it's a myth. And bad one indeed, but pervasive none-the-less.

Think of "the word of God" as an idiom for the truth. When people refer to "the word of God" they are talking about what they believe is the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.

There is a difference between believing something to be true and whether it is or not. Just because mere opinion believes something does not necessarily make something true. It has to be true to what is real or else it is false.

Whether the Jesus character is fictional or was a real person is irrelevant to the message he taught. Many truths can be taught through fictional stories.

No, it is not irrelevant. Without Jesus' physical life and death you're still sinful before God because God requires a perfect life of obedience to be reconciled to His presence.

The way I see the story of the cleansing of the temple is as a allegory filled with idioms. The human mind and conscience are the temple, the truth is that raving lunatic which chases all deceptions out of the mind and heart. The animals represent the deceptions just as a snake in the grass today is an idiom for a deceiver and con artist and an a ss or donkey represents a stupid person.
Most people like to buy their own stupidity (donkeys) from those that sell the ideas to them.
People will buy any lies that sound good to them.
Only the Truth can set them free IF they accept the Truth not if they reject it because they think of it or the messenger of it as a raving lunatic.

Do you see how perception makes a lot of difference to how you interpret a story? To take the bible stories literally is a very foolish thing to do.

Would it be OK in your opinion to steal someones stupidity ( a ss or donkey) from them or should we ask permission to take it away and let others crucify us for stealing it?

Truth is like a thief which steals stupidity from people when they are least expecting it. How many complain about having their stupidity ( a ss) stolen from them?
No one is teaching anyone to steal real animals. However if that's the way you interpret the story in your own mind there is nothing anyone can do about your perception except try to educate you and steal that insanity from you.

The problem with making the biblical narrative suit your interpretation of the story is that anyone can read whatever they like into the narrative of the Bible and make it say anything they want it to say. The meaning of words in context and culture is blurred to the point of obscurity. Jesus was speaking to a specific people at a specific time about specific events about to come upon this generation. Read into the text something it does not say perverts that meaning in the name of spirituality that goes against the teachings of God and the Spirit of truth.

Peter
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10/19/2014 12:41:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:27:02 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Are you suggesting that biblical prophecies and the words of Jesus in the bible only apply to Jews at one point in history and to no one else at any other time? If that is what you believe, why do you think so many Christians apply the word of God to this generation today?

They do not apply to us in the same way they applied to the OT people Jesus came to. The prophecy is specific to them, not us. The events prophesied happened to them, not us. The warnings were for that generation. Judgment was coming upon it soon. To read these prophetic events into the far distant future to our time is not what the text conveys. It conveys a message to them, a warning that they had heaped their sins to the limit and when Jesus came upon them in judgment, shortly, within the span of that generation, it would be too late to repent.

To insert our current generation into the text is to read ones own interpretation into the text. That is what you are trying to do. The language and meaning is relevant to them and if you want to understand it and how God has fulfilled His word then you need to hear what He says, not what you want Him to say or what you fancy He has said. God can make Himself understood.

29 Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

How many generations see the signs of summer?

Again you ignore the text. Who is Jesus speaking with these words: "29 Then He told them a parable....

Truly, I say to you, in context refers back to THEM. Who are they. You want to rip THEM from the text and insert your interpretation of "US." That is not what the words convey unless you read the imaginary word 'us' into the text.

To say 'them' is us or some other generation is to do big damage to the text and changes the prophetic fulfillment from being complete (verses 22-23) to awaiting fulfillment and reads into the text things it does not actually say, all in the name of spirituality that has nothing to do with the biblical spirituality.

How do you think it changes the fulfillment of prophecy?

It makes God speak double-talk. His words He uses to communicate do not mean what they say in context. They can mean anything the reader wants to make them mean. Thus the reader can apply a different standard to God and His word than they apply to me or anyone else in communicating. The way they want to interpret God is not the same standard they expect me to use or the same standard they use to understand me when I write to them. They want to hold God to a different standard - one they make up.

When God, in Christ, says 'this generation' you can't change it to mean any generation without changing the meaning of the text as it appears. When He says the end of this age, you can't turn it into another age without changing the meaning of the text. When He gives signs and lists things that will happen, you can't turn it into signs and things that will happen in the distant future without changing the meaning of the text.

Is the word of God not applicable to all generations of the past present and future?

Of course God's word is applicable to all generations but which generation is Jesus addressing in the scope of the discourse? To say that Jesus is specifically speaking to a different generation about things that must shortly come to pass in their lifetime is to lift a meaning out of the text that it does not say. To ignore who is being addressed is to lift a foreign meaning out of the context. To fail to understand the message Jesus is delivering to this people in language and idioms they understood from the OT which He constantly refers to is to lift a foreign meaning out of the text.

Is it not the same yesterday today and forever?

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. God's message is the same in that salvation is through Him alone but the scope of prophecy has already been fulfilled. It is not something we are still waiting for. You have to seriously damage the meaning of the text to pull out a future fulfillment when Jesus is speaking to an OT people about the fulfillment of everything written about them and Him in the OT.

Luke 21:20-24

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

These are the days of vengeance to this people so that all that is written in the Scriptures about them may be fulfilled. It is a time where people live by the sword, not the gun, a time when Jerusalem will be trampled over by the Gentiles as prophesied by God in the OT until the fulfillment of this prophecy was complete.

Do you not believe that the word of God is eternal and therefore must apply to all generations for all eternity?

God's word is eternal but it depends on who is being addressed as to what applies to who.

Are you suggesting the word of God is finite and has an end where all prophecies are completed, will never be repeated and will no longer be valid to any future generations?

No, His word is eternal. His word is still with us. It testifies to us that what He says is true, that Jesus is still the only way, truth and life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him. If you worship or believe in the wrong Jesus you have the wrong god and wrong Messiah. If you deny Him and what He has done He will deny you. He was the only means of true worship and true fellowship with God and still is that means.

Does that mean the prophesies about Jerusalem are still awaiting fulfillment? No, that has already been completed/fulfilled. Does that mean we can be part of His kingdom on earth while we live in these fleshly bodies? Yes! It most definitely means that if as Beastt pointed out, Matthew 16:28 has been fulfilled because His kingdom has come. Does it mean that the last enemy, death, has been defeated. Yes! Those in Christ are no longer separated and dead to God. Does it mean that the Old Covenant has passed away? Yes, if Jesus meant what He said in Matthew 5:17-18 every jot and title of the Law and Prophets has come to pass because until every jot and title was fulfilled (including the ceremonial laws and feast days) not one iota would pass from the Law or Prophets. I ask you, where is the temple, the priesthood, the sacrificial system required by the law in order to make this people right with God after AD 70? It is nowhere to be found. It has disappeared. Notice throughout the gospels the writer refers to "It is written" and tells the reader the fulfillment has happened.

Running out of space.

Peter
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10/19/2014 1:16:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 5:27:02 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/17/2014 11:01:39 PM, PGA wrote:
At 10/17/2014 5:44:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
1 John 4:1-6

Many Christians like to quote those verses and claim all others ought to listen to them and their particular doctrines or they are not of God. The devil himself could quote those verses and claim anyone who did not listen to him was not of God.

I believe the devil has already been defeated and thrown into the Lake of Fire. That does not mean that his influence is not still with fallen man. It most definitely is. The point is, I believe, that not everyone who claimed to have the Spirit of God was of God, not every spirit was God's Spirit. Just because someone says they are spiritual does not necessarily equate to the spirit being united with God.

Just for the record in case any readers think I am not of God, I do confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. The Way, Truth and Life is in the physical flesh on Earth daily. Those with eyes to see can actually see it or him in the flesh daily. The rest are blind.

What are you saying? Are you saying that Jesus is walking this earth in physical form in our day and every day from the time of utterance of this verse?

Just as back then, many try to spiritualize Jesus into a spiritual idea or spiritual form of worship to serve their own agenda ignoring the historical Person who actually existed or His mission, in the flesh, during the 1st century to that Jewish people. The text of 1 John 4 deals with people living back then when the antichrist was already in the world. John is writing to people he has nurtured in Christ during the last hour (1 John 2:18-20). The last hour refers to the time just before Christ's return in judgment at the end of that age. The last days were also the last days of that age, the period between Jesus' death and ascension and the destruction of the Temple and end of the OT worship system - one generation, 40 years (Hebrews 3:9-10). The last hours has whittled these days down to its soon to be final hours in relation to that time span.

Whether Jesus was a historical person or not is irrelevant to the message the character taught. If the word of God is eternal, the message must be an eternal message which needs to be relevant to all generations for all eternity. If it is not an eternal message, there would come a time when the message becomes irrelevant to some humans. Salvation from sin and deception would no longer be necessary but since humans continue to lie to each other and do wrong things in the opinions of other humans, salvation from sin and deception will always be necessary.

Jesus became flesh, became human, to meet the standards of God He required of His creature - man. To say He was not a physical person is to deny what Scripture says of Him.

What so many people tend to do is project prophecy far into the future rather than see its fulfillment during that 1st century. Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all speak of the same events to the same audience, a Jewish one.

I agree that many Christians do that Peter but most also refuse to see how it can relate to the past present and future all at the same time. It is a sad thing that so many religions divide biblical prophecy into past present and future instead of understanding how it is as repetitive as the seasons. It can apply to all generations for all eternity because the word of God is eternal and always valid.

Again, some of it does, but you have to understand who is being addressed, and in relation to what and what time frame. You can't say this concerning every prophecy or every generation or every word written.

The lesson of the fig tree was a lesson for that generation. It applied to them.

If you are going to claim that Jesus words only applied to the audience he was speaking to at the time then do you also believe salvation is only for the audience who actually heard his words or do you believe it is for all generations of the whole world for all eternity? Is Gods word and the story of salvation eternal or temporal in your opinion and why?

No, salvation is for everyone because of the covenant Jesus made as our mediator before God - the New Covenant. Moses made a covenant with a people - the Old Covenant. Jesus made a covenant with all people - the New Covenant.

Is salvation still relevant to people today? If not why not?

Of course it is because Jesus is most relevant both to the Old Covenant which always pointed to Him in its types and shadows of what was to come and as a result of the New Covenant which He sealed in His death (blood) for the remission of sin. In every way His sacrifice was superior to those of the Old Covenant which could never take away sin, just provide a covering until the real sacrifice was made.

Has Jesus returned or is he still going to return one day?

He has returned. How many returns does the NT speak of?

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


He appeared in AD 70. That would be the second time.

Did Jesus fulfill ALL prophecy in the bible or does he need to return to fulfill more of it?

That is debatable. I believe all and I can offer good logical arguments as to why I believe the Scriptures teach all. Is the a possible final coming? I don't think so but I could be wrong. It depends how you interpret what Scripture says on this count.

Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

If all is not accomplished then where is the temple that the OT required for the people to make atonement for their sin?


Has Jesus finished his work on Earth or not? See John 17:4 for the answer.

John 17:4New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

Do you agree that when a person finishes a work there is nothing left

Yes, so what is your point? He came to fulfill all that was written about Him in the Law and Prophets (i.e. the entire OT). Did He do it? I believe it was not complete until AD 70 with the Day of the Lord - Judgment Day. Just as any OT priest Jesus offered His sacrifice in the more perfect alter, the throne of God in heaven, and just like what was required by the Law of Moses, the High Priest had to come out of the temple signifying to the people the sacrifice was accepted by God. We know He went into heaven. When did He come out? Answer - AD70!

Peter
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10/19/2014 3:18:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 3:16:51 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/18/2014 7:24:29 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 10/18/2014 6:49:17 AM, Beastt wrote:


The bible and the quran are the truth to those people who believe in them.
I might suggest that you have a rather distorted view of truth - perhaps something closer to the concept of truth held by many cultures a few thousand years ago. This is simply not how truth works. You don't get to have your own private truth about matters which affect others. Some things are true. Some things are not. And these books do not offer "truth". These books each make multiple demonstrably false statements. That which is false, is not true.

It is in the eyes of some people. If it was not, humans would not be as deceived as they are. Deception happens when people believe lies. They mistake a lie for truth and vice versa.

The words in the bible can be perceived as both truth and lies depending on ones perception.
That depends upon which words you reference, and how you interpret them. But many of the statements in the Bible are not subject to rational interpretation which might also allow any rational claim that they are true. In the first 17-verses of Genesis, there are four statements which are quite demonstrably untrue. And from that point it doesn't matter how many truths you find; the claim that the "Bible is true", is not a true statement. And when the Bible declares itself to be God's absolute morality, yet promotes genocide, infanticide, slavery and rape, the book is simply not true.

A statement can be true and also false from opposite perspectives and depending on how a person interprets the words. If truth could not be seen as a lie and vice versa humans would never be able to be deceived. Judging something as rational or irrational is very subjective.
If you read the bible and interpret it literally it is definitely irrational and hypocritical but when you read it as an allegory and understand it is filled with idioms and double meanings then you would also see it as the truth as well as a lie.

The Qur'an provides what it presents as a description of human embryonic development and it's what one might expect from an 8-year old's biology report. It starts by claiming that man is formed from an essence of clay, then describes only a drop of sperm (It never even mentions the egg), which it claims then becomes a "clot of blood", which forms a skeleton, and then finally, the skeleton is grown over in flesh. This is absurdly incorrect and most certainly does not represent "the truth".


You need to understand the allegories and idioms of the culture and authors who wrote the books. No idiom literally means what it says. Most have totally different meanings to what they appear to mean on outward appearances and many cannot even be properly translated from one language to another without sounding like total nonsense.

So while people may proclaim these books to be "truth", there is no veracity to any such claim. So the books are false, and the claim that they are "truth" is false as well.

Humans will all believe whatever tickles their fancy, appeals to their egos and makes them feel better about themselves even if it is a con or a huge deception. Humans love deception. All the fantasy and fiction they write proves it.
Skyangel
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10/19/2014 3:26:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/18/2014 4:34:56 PM, bornofgod wrote:

I am the Word of God and we all exist in Him. The Bible is NOT the Word of God that we all live in. It's only a book so how can we be living in a book? Only stupid people believe we live in a book.

You are only a man so how can we be living in a man? Only idiots believe they are the word of God and the whole world exists in them. You delude yourself with your own fantasies.
You are complaining about yourself when you complain about all the stupid people inside yourself. However, schizophrenia does that to those who suffer from it.
You obviously need help. Go to a hospital where the rest of the Gods of this world all coexist. Then you may all worship each other.