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Querying the Koran?

Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/18/2010 10:38:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Apoligies if this is seen as Islamospam, I would not call it that as it's a little more qualified than bankers usual, "ebil moslim lib jihad raping peece".

But anyway, there are doubts that the koran is the pure unedited word of God, particularly as it was rewritten by the third caliph.

http://www.guardian.co.uk...

(PS: The Guardian is a centre left liberal source, and like most liberals is not anti-Islam even though it should be IMO).
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
redinferno
Posts: 7
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4/18/2010 10:56:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I haven't read that article yet but I know this. The third Caliph didn't rewrite the Quran. During the period of the first two Caliphs Islam was spreading but during his rule Islam was already pretty stable in the region but the Arabs were all reciting the Quran in different ways and people wrote their own copies of the Quran according to their own varying pronunciations.

The third Caliph, Uthman burnt all copies of the Quran that were written by people and distributed copies that followed the Quraishi pronounciations ( The Prophets pronounciation. )

Furthermore it would have been impossible for the Quran to have been changed without Muslims knowing. Nearly all scholars during the lifetime of the Prophets had memorized the Quran and even the smallest pronounciation mistake would be noticed back then and even today.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/18/2010 12:44:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The Qur'an was memorized by extremely many people. Verses and chapters of the Qur'an were partially remembered by many more. The verses were also written on leaves, deerskin, wood pieces, and so forth.

There was frustration after the death of the beloved Prophet about the Qur'an. It should be compiled etc., and in the same script. Uthman (r.a.) compiled the Qur'an in the script we have today. It was shortly after the death of the beloved Prophet. Then Muslims started travelling to east and west, Islam spread quickly, and they had memorized the Qur'an in both sides (i.e. east and west). Their memorization was passed on for centuries. The Muslims were thousands of miles away from each other, and they compiled the Qur'an, and so forth. Today, whether we go to east or west, we can see the Qur'ans that were compiled by those people, including partial verses. None of them are different. And today, whoever knows the Qur'an by heart, will never recite it differently to another person that knows it by heart. YouTube has numerous videos about the recitation of the Qur'an, all 114 chapters. I do not know the entire Qur'an by heart yet, but those chapters I know have never been recited differently to how I recite them. Whether you find a person in the most isolated village in the world who knows the Qur'an by heart, or one in a big city who knows it, none of them will recite anything different.

This is the only book in the world that has been able to be original since its first day. William Nuir was a big critic of Islam, yet he admitted that this is the purest book ever, preserved longer than any other book. Archaeological evidence always keeps proving that the Qur'an has remained unchanged. We even have many Islamic sects, yet we have one Qur'an. No other religion has so many different sects, yet one holy book. Catholics and Protestants have different Bibles. This fact alone makes some people Muslims.

http://www.muslimherald.com...
http://www.quran.org.uk...
http://falsafah.org...
http://www.islamonline.net...

http://images.chron.com...
http://muslimmedianetwork.com...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com...

All of these match the current Qur'an.
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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4/18/2010 1:59:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 1:57:42 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Cerebral, please don't become like Banker... One Islamospammer is enough...

I think that with this round of threads CN has more of a problem with Mirza than Islam.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/18/2010 2:01:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 1:59:45 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:57:42 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Cerebral, please don't become like Banker... One Islamospammer is enough...

I think that with this round of threads CN has more of a problem with Mirza than Islam.

Maybe. Cerebral seems to be fine with me. Could be because I'm female though.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/18/2010 2:01:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 12:44:59 PM, Mirza wrote:
The Qur'an was memorized by extremely many people. Verses and chapters of the Qur'an were partially remembered by many more. The verses were also written on leaves, deerskin, wood pieces, and so forth.

Hahaha. How reliable.
President of DDO
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/18/2010 2:03:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:01:34 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Hahaha. How reliable.
Well, being a very short description, yes. And seeing how the Qur'an is only one today, yes once more.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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4/18/2010 2:05:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You can't rely on memory to write a whole book. Wtf? Have you ever played the game Telephone? And right - I'm sure things written on deer skin and wood stayed perfectly preserved. Long story short, don't bother trying to convince me. Islam is as much BS as all of the other religions out there... except Pastafarian, of course.
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InsertNameHere
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4/18/2010 2:07:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:05:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
You can't rely on memory to write a whole book. Wtf? Have you ever played the game Telephone? And right - I'm sure things written on deer skin and wood stayed perfectly preserved. Long story short, don't bother trying to convince me. Islam is as much BS as all of the other religions out there... except Pastafarian, of course.

All hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster! lulz.
Mirza
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4/18/2010 2:10:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:05:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
You can't rely on memory to write a whole book. Wtf? Have you ever played the game Telephone? And right - I'm sure things written on deer skin and wood stayed perfectly preserved. Long story short, don't bother trying to convince me. Islam is as much BS as all of the other religions out there... except Pastafarian, of course.
Comparing a game to this is nonsense.

How do you think Muslims memorize the Qur'an even today? They write verses down on many things. They keep those things for later on. Back in those days, verses were written everywhere. Moreover, people had already memorized the Qur'an. Those who memorize it are called 'hafiz', and it means 'guardian(of the Qur'an)'. Had they not memorized anything different when being split for centuries, do you think they would ever write down every letter correctly, matching whatever they wrote? If I write a book and a thousand people memorize it, and they all travel around the world, and after 1,000 years, their followers write down what was passed on to them, and none of them write anything differently, how is the book then changed? It is not. This is the same thing with the Qur'an, and even more complicated, since it is not a book you just write down easily.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/18/2010 2:14:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
When evidence that clearly goes against atheism, or whatever is popular today like homosexuality, then it is absurd! Nonsense! Is it just a theory! When a tiny bit of a theory comes to support any of those above, it is a scientific fact! There are no counter arguments at all! Accept it or be laughed at! When clear archaeological, historical, logical, etc. evidence is here to support the Qur'an, there is laughter. The evidence that the Qur'an is preserved perfectly is 10 times clearer than the theory of evolution. Why laugh at the former? Because it is something you dislike.
Mirza
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4/18/2010 2:16:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:12:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I fail. I'm only just memorizing the opening of the Qur'an.
That chapter and a few others are sufficient for prayer until you learn others.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/18/2010 2:28:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:05:28 PM, theLwerd wrote:
You can't rely on memory to write a whole book. Wtf? Have you ever played the game Telephone? And right - I'm sure things written on deer skin and wood stayed perfectly preserved. Long story short, don't bother trying to convince me. Islam is as much BS as all of the other religions out there... except Pastafarian, of course.

You are completely underestimating the ancient oral traditions. Modern man can't even remember phone numbers anymore.

Oral tradition was one of the strongest methods of record keeping.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/18/2010 2:32:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:28:58 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
You are completely underestimating the ancient oral traditions. Modern man can't even remember phone numbers anymore.

Oral tradition was one of the strongest methods of record keeping.
Yes.

And in fact, the Qur'an claims to be very easy to remember. Is this claim supported? Yes. If you look at how advanced it is in literature, you would think even Arabs would have a hard time memorizing it. A lot of them do. But the amazing thing here is that non-Arabs can memorize it just as easy, even though it is not a simple text. Imagine a Chinese text. Easy for a non-Chinese to memorize? No. Arabic, especially how the Qur'an is written, is complicated, but memorizing it is not hard for most people. This makes it easy for all people in the world to memorize the Qur'an and guard it.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/18/2010 2:38:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:16:27 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/18/2010 2:12:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I fail. I'm only just memorizing the opening of the Qur'an.
That chapter and a few others are sufficient for prayer until you learn others.

Yea, which other ones should I learn?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/18/2010 2:43:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You can learn the first part of the second chapter, which is called 'Alif Lam Mim'.

The last 20 chapters are short, especially the three last ones. They are also very powerful in their message.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/18/2010 4:56:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:12:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I fail. I'm only just memorizing the opening of the Qur'an.

This book belongs to ... ?

^^
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/18/2010 5:00:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 4:56:32 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 2:12:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I fail. I'm only just memorizing the opening of the Qur'an.

This book belongs to ... ?

^^

What?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/18/2010 5:26:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 5:00:49 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/18/2010 4:56:32 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 2:12:52 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I fail. I'm only just memorizing the opening of the Qur'an.

This book belongs to ... ?

^^

What?

Never seen a book where people write "This book belongs to <name>" in the front cover?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/18/2010 11:51:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:01:02 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:59:45 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:57:42 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Cerebral, please don't become like Banker... One Islamospammer is enough...

I think that with this round of threads CN has more of a problem with Mirza than Islam.

Maybe. Cerebral seems to be fine with me. Could be because I'm female though.

I consider that people with totally differing world views can still get on. In any case I am fine with you, I am fine with Muslims, I am not fine with Islam. A bit more aggression comes out with Mirza because I don't consider his replies honest, and he manifests aspects of his religion or culture that cause me to oppose Islam. If you posted the same way, then if I am honest I probably would give you more leeway because of who you are, but you don't so its a moot point. Probably because you are a western Muslim, and Mirza in essence is not. I'd still go bowling with either of you.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/19/2010 12:14:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 11:51:30 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/18/2010 2:01:02 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:59:45 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:57:42 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Cerebral, please don't become like Banker... One Islamospammer is enough...

I think that with this round of threads CN has more of a problem with Mirza than Islam.

Maybe. Cerebral seems to be fine with me. Could be because I'm female though.

I consider that people with totally differing world views can still get on. In any case I am fine with you, I am fine with Muslims, I am not fine with Islam. A bit more aggression comes out with Mirza because I don't consider his replies honest, and he manifests aspects of his religion or culture that cause me to oppose Islam. If you posted the same way, then if I am honest I probably would give you more leeway because of who you are, but you don't so its a moot point. Probably because you are a western Muslim, and Mirza in essence is not. I'd still go bowling with either of you.

Aww, now I can't make fun of you and call you sexist. :( Oh well. Sure, my religion helps to define who I am, but I don't blow it out of proportion(no pun intended, hahahaha). I just like to...well...live life.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/19/2010 9:36:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 12:14:36 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/18/2010 11:51:30 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/18/2010 2:01:02 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:59:45 PM, Korashk wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:57:42 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Cerebral, please don't become like Banker... One Islamospammer is enough...

I think that with this round of threads CN has more of a problem with Mirza than Islam.

Maybe. Cerebral seems to be fine with me. Could be because I'm female though.

I consider that people with totally differing world views can still get on. In any case I am fine with you, I am fine with Muslims, I am not fine with Islam. A bit more aggression comes out with Mirza because I don't consider his replies honest, and he manifests aspects of his religion or culture that cause me to oppose Islam. If you posted the same way, then if I am honest I probably would give you more leeway because of who you are, but you don't so its a moot point. Probably because you are a western Muslim, and Mirza in essence is not. I'd still go bowling with either of you.

Aww, now I can't make fun of you and call you sexist. :( Oh well. Sure, my religion helps to define who I am, but I don't blow it out of proportion(no pun intended, hahahaha). I just like to...well...live life.

So when are you, mirza and me going bowling?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/19/2010 10:08:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 9:36:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
So when are you, mirza and me going bowling?
We are pretty far away from each other.