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Lucifer

DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/18/2010 6:56:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
***This entire thread is under the assumption that the Bible is a reliable source***

--So what is the current explaination for how Satan managed to sin although he had no one to tempt him?

--The bible verses concerning this are around Isaiah 14:12, and Ezekiel 28:13

--Accordind to these verses, Satan was the most powerful, wisest, and was completely blameless (until he revolted against God with 1/3 of the other angels) of all the angels. It says he was: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and beauty."

--I am not sure what to think of all this and so I was hoping that some of the other Christians on the site (and some mature individuals from other beliefs) could help me understand this.

--Side note: Lucifer roughly translates to "light bearer" in Latin? This is more than a bit ironic that the "father of all lies" is called the "light bearer" when light is almost always refering to truth.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 6:56:42 PM, DevinKing wrote:
***This entire thread is under the assumption that the Bible is a reliable source***

--So what is the current explaination for how Satan managed to sin although he had no one to tempt him?

--The bible verses concerning this are around Isaiah 14:12, and Ezekiel 28:13

--Accordind to these verses, Satan was the most powerful, wisest, and was completely blameless (until he revolted against God with 1/3 of the other angels) of all the angels. It says he was: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and beauty."

--I am not sure what to think of all this and so I was hoping that some of the other Christians on the site (and some mature individuals from other beliefs) could help me understand this.

--Side note: Lucifer roughly translates to "light bearer" in Latin? This is more than a bit ironic that the "father of all lies" is called the "light bearer" when light is almost always refering to truth.

Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 7:03:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Doesn't the bible refer to the morningstar falling as satan falling.... or is that a different book??

Lucifer is the morningstar.

and there's a long christian, esp. catholic, tradition that Lucifer is satan.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/18/2010 7:04:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...

--From my interpretation, Satan's initial sin was that he aspired to be greater than God.

--My biggest question was, How did he sin without any negative influences? If it was not his enviornment, then it follows that it was something which was in his nature. But why would God knowingly create his greatest enemy?
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/18/2010 7:08:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

--Explain.

--First off, Satan means "enemy". And matt is right, the two are considered to be the same by tradition. Furthermore, the Bible refers to Lucifer being in the Garden of Eden, presumably to tempt mankind. Genesis calls the serpent satan, so... fail on your part.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/18/2010 7:08:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:04:08 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...

--From my interpretation, Satan's initial sin was that he aspired to be greater than God.

--My biggest question was, How did he sin without any negative influences? If it was not his enviornment, then it follows that it was something which was in his nature. But why would God knowingly create his greatest enemy?

Free will?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/18/2010 7:11:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:08:24 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:04:08 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...

--From my interpretation, Satan's initial sin was that he aspired to be greater than God.

--My biggest question was, How did he sin without any negative influences? If it was not his enviornment, then it follows that it was something which was in his nature. But why would God knowingly create his greatest enemy?

Free will?

--But the desire to do something arises either from outside influence or nature. Both of which were completely controled by God. Even with free will, it doesn't seem that the wisest angel would start a fight that he knew he couldn't win.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 7:16:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:04:08 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...

--From my interpretation, Satan's initial sin was that he aspired to be greater than God.

He didn't see why god had to be GOD... he didn't want to bow down to someone if he didn't see good reason to... he wanted reason.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 7:19:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:16:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:04:08 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...

--From my interpretation, Satan's initial sin was that he aspired to be greater than God.

He didn't see why god had to be GOD... he didn't want to bow down to someone if he didn't see good reason to... he wanted reason.

Tertullian, who dislikes philosophy was one of the first to think of Lucifer (lightbearer) as Satan.

And Alexander pope who also hates "vain philosophy" is a catholic... which, as I said believe in Lucifer/Satan
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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4/18/2010 7:36:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:11:56 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:08:24 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:04:08 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:44 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Turning that light on God, was his sin...

He tried to understand why God was GOD...

--From my interpretation, Satan's initial sin was that he aspired to be greater than God.

--My biggest question was, How did he sin without any negative influences? If it was not his enviornment, then it follows that it was something which was in his nature. But why would God knowingly create his greatest enemy?

Free will?

--But the desire to do something arises either from outside influence or nature. Both of which were completely controled by God. Even with free will, it doesn't seem that the wisest angel would start a fight that he knew he couldn't win.

That doesn't seem true. It appears to me that doubt most often springs from cognition rather than nature or influence. There must always be an origin, and that origin cannot possess it as a part of nature nor influence by the merit of the fact that he or she is the original.

On the other hand, from intelligence often springs arrogance, even that which is all-consuming. Remember, his sin was vanity. He began to love himself more than God, and felt that others should as well. Right now, he's competing with God for love... and that's about it.

But, for all intents and purposes, that actually suggests that the gods are engaged in a millenia-long pissing match.

Que ser a. Wtf else would they do? The Universe couldn't be very much more than an XBox to them.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/19/2010 8:25:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
some have suggested that the one set of scriptures that refers to Lucifer is actually a metephoric person for man.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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4/19/2010 10:55:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...

Some decent(ish) arguments from both sides are here too: http://www.debate.org...
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/19/2010 11:55:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...
No the term Lucifer as devil is in the OT. However, Lucifer the Archangel who defected from Heaven, the personification of pride, is from the book of Revelations, which is canon before the 4/5th Century.

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...
No original OT Jews where Monolatrist they believed in other demi gods, whore gods and demonic gods but only worshiped Yahweh(eg.Baal, Leviathan). The Devil has many forms he has more than one body, Lucifer the archangel is only one.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/19/2010 12:13:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Lucifer and Satan are differeent beings but the same thing, If that makes sencent.
They are both the devil, but differenct acepts of personificated self indugent sin. Wrath-Satan, Lufifer-Pride.

There's also...

Leviathan[Demon of the Sea][SelfDevil-Envy]
Baal[False God.]
Behemoth[Demon of the Land]
Ur[Other Demon of the Sky]
Lucifer[SelfDevil-Pride]
Pan[Satanic god]
Baphomet[C-N's old avatar]
Morgoth[The Dark one]
Yama
Yazdiv[Satanic god]
Ziz[Demon of the Sky]
Beelzebub[The Lord of the Flies][SelfDevil-Gluttony]
Amon[SelfDevil-Wrath]
Asmodus[SelfDevil-Lust]
Mammon[SelfDevil-Greed]

Some of them you may know form popular culture, eg Morgoth is the god predecessor of Sauron in LOTR, the devil.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/19/2010 12:47:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 12:13:05 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Lucifer and Satan are differeent beings but the same thing, If that makes sencent.
They are both the devil, but differenct acepts of personificated self indugent sin. Wrath-Satan, Lufifer-Pride.

There's also...

Leviathan[Demon of the Sea][SelfDevil-Envy]
Baal[False God.]
Behemoth[Demon of the Land]
Ur[Other Demon of the Sky]
Lucifer[SelfDevil-Pride]
Pan[Satanic god]
Baphomet[C-N's old avatar]
Morgoth[The Dark one]
Yama
Yazdiv[Satanic god]
Ziz[Demon of the Sky]
Beelzebub[The Lord of the Flies][SelfDevil-Gluttony]
Amon[SelfDevil-Wrath]
Asmodus[SelfDevil-Lust]
Mammon[SelfDevil-Greed]

Some of them you may know form popular culture, eg Morgoth is the god predecessor of Sauron in LOTR, the devil.

I dont know where you got all the names for this list but take Ziz, Behemoth, and Levathan off. their just dinosours nothing mystical or supernatural about them.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/19/2010 2:19:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 12:47:20 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/19/2010 12:13:05 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Lucifer and Satan are differeent beings but the same thing, If that makes sencent.
They are both the devil, but differenct acepts of personificated self indugent sin. Wrath-Satan, Lufifer-Pride.

There's also...

Leviathan[Demon of the Sea][SelfDevil-Envy]
Baal[False God.]
Behemoth[Demon of the Land]
Ur[Other Demon of the Sky]
Lucifer[SelfDevil-Pride]
Pan[Satanic god]
Baphomet[C-N's old avatar]
Morgoth[The Dark one]
Yama
Yazdiv[Satanic god]
Ziz[Demon of the Sky]
Beelzebub[The Lord of the Flies][SelfDevil-Gluttony]
Amon[SelfDevil-Wrath]
Asmodus[SelfDevil-Lust]
Mammon[SelfDevil-Greed]

Some of them you may know form popular culture, eg Morgoth is the god predecessor of Sauron in LOTR, the devil.

I dont know where you got all the names for this list but take Ziz, Behemoth, and Levathan off. their just dinosours nothing mystical or supernatural about them.

Look em up at Demonology. They are reason demons, beast of the Devil, there's a biblical concept about and army of deamons (who are all the devil) that are of the apocalypse. 666 the number of the beast. ZLP are all in the bible.)
'sup DDO -- july 2013
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/19/2010 2:22:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...

Are you willing to debate it? Lucifer is Satan. I'll be Pro.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/19/2010 3:16:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 2:22:06 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...

Are you willing to debate it? Lucifer is Satan. I'll be Pro.

What is your argument name. Tell me that.

EG, Gay. - Animals aren't.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/22/2010 7:14:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/19/2010 3:16:01 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/19/2010 2:22:06 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...

Are you willing to debate it? Lucifer is Satan. I'll be Pro.

What is your argument name. Tell me that.

EG, Gay. - Animals aren't.

--The argument title would be "Lucifer is Satan". And like I said, I'll be pro, you'll be con.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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4/22/2010 7:40:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Satan was an Angel (spirit)...Angels are "spirits", and are so called (Heb. 1:7, 14).

Angels are not Human, never were nor can be, and they are or can be subject to sin.

Satan sinned by sir coming to the same three weaknesses he exploited in Adam and Eve;

"Profit, Pride, and pleasure".,, as we all do to this day !
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/23/2010 4:50:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 7:14:52 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/19/2010 3:16:01 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/19/2010 2:22:06 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...

Are you willing to debate it? Lucifer is Satan. I'll be Pro.

What is your argument name. Tell me that.

EG, Gay. - Animals aren't.

--The argument title would be "Lucifer is Satan". And like I said, I'll be pro, you'll be con.

What are the names of your arguments. Just want to see if I can win.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/24/2010 6:12:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 4:50:09 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/22/2010 7:14:52 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/19/2010 3:16:01 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 4/19/2010 2:22:06 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 8:29:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:01:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Lucifer =/= Satan.

Fail.

Whoa we agree. :P

Lucifer as Satan is an artifact of a Monk from the 4/5th Century.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

In the OT Satan acts as an agent of God, agent provocateur.
http://bible.cc...
http://www.biblegateway.com...

Are you willing to debate it? Lucifer is Satan. I'll be Pro.

What is your argument name. Tell me that.

EG, Gay. - Animals aren't.

--The argument title would be "Lucifer is Satan". And like I said, I'll be pro, you'll be con.

What are the names of your arguments. Just want to see if I can win.

--Names of my arguments?
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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4/24/2010 10:15:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
First of all we must keep in mind that Lucifer was a Cherubh.
Cherubh do not have their own light like the Seraph.
Cherubh need a source of light to reflect that light. When Lucifer lost the presence of God he had no light.
According to the Catholic Church, Seraph is a higher Angelic being than a Cherubh. (Read Book of Enoch)

God never sends Seraphim to get involved on Earth. Only Cherubh are used in human affairs.

All Cherubh have 4 wings so did Lucifer.

Read the book "Angels"
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell