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Jesus' Divinity

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/20/2010 7:17:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Most Christians nowadays believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. They claim that he was God in human form, who came here to sacrifice himself.

As a Muslim, I deny this. Is it logical if I said that the Bible is wrong because the Qur'an disagrees? No. What can I do? Prove from the Bible itself that Jesus never said "I am God, worship me". He prayed to God, he ate, he said that God is greater than him.

I do not have to quote verses from the Bible supporting my view now, because I want to refute anyone coming with the opposite claim. If any Christian believes that Jesus claimed divinity, let him quote maximum two verses from the Bible where Jesus claims to be God. After I refute these, then two other verses can be quoted.

Maybe in the end, some Christians will start following the Bible as it should be followed.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/20/2010 7:23:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 7:17:38 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most Christians nowadays believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. They claim that he was God in human form, who came here to sacrifice himself.

As a Muslim, I deny this. Is it logical if I said that the Bible is wrong because the Qur'an disagrees? No. What can I do? Prove from the Bible itself that Jesus never said "I am God, worship me". He prayed to God, he ate, he said that God is greater than him.

I do not have to quote verses from the Bible supporting my view now, because I want to refute anyone coming with the opposite claim. If any Christian believes that Jesus claimed divinity, let him quote maximum two verses from the Bible where Jesus claims to be God. After I refute these, then two other verses can be quoted.

Maybe in the end, some Christians will start following the Bible as it should be followed.

well for starters you have John 14: 8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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4/20/2010 8:18:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Nice one Marauder. How about the whole sermon on the mount, where Jesus said "but I say unto you..." dozens of times while teaching. Not even the Pharisees directly spoke from their own authority like that. Jesus was clarifying God's teachings with His (Jesus) own words. You'd have to be God to do that.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/20/2010 8:19:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 7:23:01 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/20/2010 7:17:38 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most Christians nowadays believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. They claim that he was God in human form, who came here to sacrifice himself.

As a Muslim, I deny this. Is it logical if I said that the Bible is wrong because the Qur'an disagrees? No. What can I do? Prove from the Bible itself that Jesus never said "I am God, worship me". He prayed to God, he ate, he said that God is greater than him.

I do not have to quote verses from the Bible supporting my view now, because I want to refute anyone coming with the opposite claim. If any Christian believes that Jesus claimed divinity, let him quote maximum two verses from the Bible where Jesus claims to be God. After I refute these, then two other verses can be quoted.

Maybe in the end, some Christians will start following the Bible as it should be followed.

well for starters you have John 14: 8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com...

That could be interpreted in a different way.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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4/20/2010 10:06:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Jesus is the Son of God so that makes Him God.

Easy- A King's son is called a Prince automatically.

Jesus has called God - Father so many times in the Bible. It is the proof
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
Mirza
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4/20/2010 10:30:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 7:23:01 AM, Marauder wrote:
well for starters you have John 14: 8-11 http://www.biblegateway.com...
This one is not quoted in context. Let us look at a few verses before and after.

[John 14:1-4] "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. (2)In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. (3)And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. (4)You know the way to the place where I am going."

A few passages back, we see that Jesus spoke about Paradise. He said that we should trust God, but also him. Why would he not just say God? Or why would he not just say himself? It is clear that Jesus and God are two different beings.

[John 14:5-8] "Thomas said to him, 'Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?' (6)Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (7)If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' (8)Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.'"

Here, Jesus says that he is the one who is the way to God. This is nothing special, since it applies to Islam too. Whoever denies Jesus will not go to Paradise. This is a Biblical view, and because Jesus was the Prophet unto whom the New Testament was revealed, he was the way, the truth, and the light to God. Moses was the exact same thing before Jesus was born (peace be upon them).

Now, the interesting thing in this verse is that Jesus says "From now on..." - What does this mean? Thomas asks Jesus to show God to him, and had Jesus been God, he would have said something similar to, "I am God" or "You have been looking at good all the time" (i.e. by looking at Jesus). However, Jesus said, after telling Thomas that Jesus is the way to God, "From now on, you do know him and have seen him." - This means that now, after that Jesus told Thomas about God and Paradise, Jesus told him that Thomas has gotten to know God and seen him, because whoever accepts Jesus' message, he has 'seen' God, because he will go to Paradise.

[John 14:9-12] "Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (10)Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. (11)Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. (12)I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

This could look like Jesus is saying that he is God. However, let us analyze the highlighted words.

Firstly, Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) says that he is in God and that God is in him. I will address that a few passages later. Secondly, Jesus states that the words he utters are not only his own, but of the one who lives in him, namely God (this is the issue of Jesus inside God and vice versa). It means, without doubt, that what Jesus says is not only his work, but the work of God. He would never say such a thing if he himself were God. It means: What Jesus said was not only his own words, but also of the Father, i.e. God. Thirdly, Jesus says that he is going to the Father. If I read this verse, not knowing anything about Christianity, I doubt I would ever think that one who says that he will go to God is God Himself.

Moving on...

[John 14:15-20] "'If you love me, you will obey what I command. (16)And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— (17)the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (18)I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. (19)Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. (20)On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'"

In this part, Jesus says that he will ask God for another Counselor, i.e. the Spirit of Truth. God will not ask Himself for anything.

Lastly, I said that I would address the 'Jesus in God' and vice versa-issue, and I will. If you read the last highlighted sentence, Jesus says that he is in God (as we already know), but then he says that Thomas and Phillip (his followers) are in Jesus, and he says that he is in them. God is not only in Jesus, but also the followers of him. Jesus is inside the followers. It means that neither God nor Jesus are one because they are inside each other, because others are also in Jesus etc.

The refutations are clear.

----------------
Let me also explain why Jesus is not God.

[Exodus 33:17-18] "And the LORD said to Moses, 'I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.' (18)Then Moses said, '"Now show me your glory.'"

Exodus 33:19-20] "And the LORD said, 'I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (20)But,' he said, 'you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.'"

Moses (peace be upon him), being a Prophet, was not allowed to see God. Then why would God show himself to all people, being a man? This is illogical. You cannot say that none who sees God can live, and yet say that Jesus is God, since that is contradictory.

[John 14:28] [Jesus says] "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

As usual, we see that Jesus says that he is going to God. After that, he says that God is greater than him. This is perfect evidence. Why would God ever make such a statement about Himself? "I am that I am" is how God sometimes refers to Himself in the Bible. "God is greater than I" is somehow similar to that? I do not believe that any person with a fair mind will say that these two are nearly the same. Jesus admitted that God is greater than him, especially in this passage.

[Mark 13:32] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

This is another perfect example. Only God knows when Day of Judgement will arrive. Had Jesus been God, this verse would not have 'the Son' included. These words are also found in Matthew 24:36.

[Luke 22:42] "'Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.'"

Jesus prays to God. Jesus asks God to do something, and says that God's will must be done, not his own.

[John 14:31] "... the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me."

Jesus loves God, and does exactly what God tells him to do. Why would God tell Himself what to do? This is nothing but illogical.

As much as a man and woman are different beings, so are Jesus and God. Read: 1 Corinthians 11:3
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/20/2010 10:31:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 10:06:28 AM, lastrequest691 wrote:
Jesus is the Son of God so that makes Him God.
God does not give birth to Himself.

Easy- A King's son is called a Prince automatically.
I agree. However, then there are two Gods according to you. A King is a person of his own, while his son may get the same status, he is not the father (king) himself. If you say that Jesus is the son of God, and also God, simply because you can be a king, have a son, and he also becomes king, then there are two gods, which the Bible speaks against.

Jesus has called God - Father so many times in the Bible. It is the proof
"Our Father, who art in heaven
hallowed be thy Name,
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/20/2010 10:34:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mirza, I'll debate you on whether or the trinity is a contradicition.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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4/20/2010 10:37:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 10:34:24 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Mirza, I'll debate you on whether or the trinity is a contradicition.
I am not up for many debates. I got my reasons. I'm already waiting for another one. If you have something to say, say it here.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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4/20/2010 11:32:26 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 7:17:38 AM, Mirza wrote:
Most Christians nowadays believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God. They claim that he was God in human form, who came here to sacrifice himself.

As a Muslim, I deny this. Is it logical if I said that the Bible is wrong because the Qur'an disagrees? No. What can I do? Prove from the Bible itself that Jesus never said "I am God, worship me". He prayed to God, he ate, he said that God is greater than him.

I do not have to quote verses from the Bible supporting my view now, because I want to refute anyone coming with the opposite claim. If any Christian believes that Jesus claimed divinity, let him quote maximum two verses from the Bible where Jesus claims to be God. After I refute these, then two other verses can be quoted.

Maybe in the end, some Christians will start following the Bible as it should be followed.

Mirza, where can I get access to the books/ sources that you use to make arguments like this?
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/20/2010 11:35:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If Jesus is God, then why follow through with the pretense of the devil attempting to tempt him?

If Jesus is God then why does he, why have you forsaken me? When on the cross?

If Jesus is God then how can he be a sacrifice to God?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
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4/20/2010 11:59:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 11:32:26 AM, Freeman wrote:
Mirza, where can I get access to the books/ sources that you use to make arguments like this?
If you have read all of what I wrote, you would probably realize that by just analyzing the verses in context, there is clear explanation. You can read on many websites about this. Mormons do not believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God either.

I have also quoted passages that explain it. There is no need to interpret or analyze some of them in a certain way.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 11:59:45 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 11:32:26 AM, Freeman wrote:
Mirza, where can I get access to the books/ sources that you use to make arguments like this?
If you have read all of what I wrote, you would probably realize that by just analyzing the verses in context, there is clear explanation. You can read on many websites about this. Mormons do not believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God either.

I have also quoted passages that explain it. There is no need to interpret or analyze some of them in a certain way.

Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
Mirza
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4/20/2010 12:05:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
There are exceptions with regards to some Mormons.

Generally, they do not claim that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God.
Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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4/20/2010 12:17:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:05:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
There are exceptions with regards to some Mormons.

Generally, they do not claim that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God.

The trinity is composed of three seperate individuals.
god-Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ
Holy Ghost-the spirit
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/20/2010 12:18:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:05:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
There are exceptions with regards to some Mormons.

Generally, they do not claim that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God.

I think they believe that he has attained God-hood. Technically they are polytheists.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Kahvan
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4/20/2010 12:18:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:17:22 PM, Kahvan wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:05:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
There are exceptions with regards to some Mormons.

Generally, they do not claim that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God.

The trinity is composed of three seperate individuals.
god-Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ
Holy Ghost-the spirit

However, we do belive that Jesus Christ is a God and that we can all also become gods ^.^ first thing I am gonna do (provided i become a god) is beat my dad in a game of chess.
InsertNameHere
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4/20/2010 12:18:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:18:08 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:05:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
There are exceptions with regards to some Mormons.

Generally, they do not claim that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God.

I think they believe that he has attained God-hood. Technically they are polytheists.

Like most Christians? :P
Mirza
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4/20/2010 12:19:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:18:08 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I think they believe that he has attained God-hood. Technically they are polytheists.
Yes, but as for Jesus (peace be upon him) being God, they generally deny that. They consider him Jesus being a Savior.
Mirza
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4/20/2010 12:20:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:18:34 PM, Kahvan wrote:
However, we do belive that Jesus Christ is a God and that we can all also become gods ^.^ first thing I am gonna do (provided i become a god) is beat my dad in a game of chess.
You mean in Heaven?

Mormonism is not about Jesus being God, although most Christian sects nowadays are polytheistic, even though they may reject this belief of Jesus (peace be upon him) being God.
Kahvan
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4/20/2010 12:22:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:20:59 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:18:34 PM, Kahvan wrote:
However, we do belive that Jesus Christ is a God and that we can all also become gods ^.^ first thing I am gonna do (provided i become a god) is beat my dad in a game of chess.
You mean in Heaven?
nah, when if i become a god i will use everything in my power to beat my dad in a game of chess lol

Mormonism is not about Jesus being God, although most Christian sects nowadays are polytheistic, even though they may reject this belief of Jesus (peace be upon him) being God.
Mirza
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4/20/2010 12:22:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
They do believe in crucifixion, although the Bible itself has passages against it. But Mormons have their own book, which makes it more complex to argue against, if you are using the Bible as your source to argue.
Kahvan
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4/20/2010 12:23:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:20:59 PM, Mirza wrote:
Mormonism is not about Jesus being God, although most Christian sects nowadays are polytheistic, even though they may reject this belief of Jesus (peace be upon him) being God.

One of the main things it is about is bringing people closer to the savior (jesus christ). we are a true religion. we don't even pay the prophet who is the head of the church.
Mirza
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4/20/2010 12:23:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:22:14 PM, Kahvan wrote:
nah, when if i become a god i will use everything in my power to beat my dad in a game of chess lol
Christianity does not hold that view.

At least not the Bible.
Kahvan
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4/20/2010 12:23:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:22:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
They do believe in crucifixion, although the Bible itself has passages against it. But Mormons have their own book, which makes it more complex to argue against, if you are using the Bible as your source to argue.

We use both the Bible and Book of Mormon.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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4/20/2010 12:24:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:18:51 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:18:08 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:05:56 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 4/20/2010 12:02:58 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Mormons don't believe Jesus is God? I should ask Kahvan about that. He's Mormon.
There are exceptions with regards to some Mormons.

Generally, they do not claim that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) is God.

I think they believe that he has attained God-hood. Technically they are polytheists.

Like most Christians? :P

No... yes... I don't know... gah!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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4/20/2010 12:24:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 11:35:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If Jesus is God, then why follow through with the pretense of the devil attempting to tempt him?

If Jesus is God then why does he, why have you forsaken me? When on the cross?

If Jesus is God then how can he be a sacrifice to God?

You are thinking of a god that must be limited by human form. You think that if he is in heaven, he can't also be in human form on earth to experience what his people experience. Who would want a god like that? So limited and powerless?
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
Mirza
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4/20/2010 12:26:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:23:26 PM, Kahvan wrote:
One of the main things it is about is bringing people closer to the savior (jesus christ). we are a true religion. we don't even pay the prophet who is the head of the church.
Trinity is polytheism.
InsertNameHere
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4/20/2010 12:26:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:24:54 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 4/20/2010 11:35:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If Jesus is God, then why follow through with the pretense of the devil attempting to tempt him?

If Jesus is God then why does he, why have you forsaken me? When on the cross?

If Jesus is God then how can he be a sacrifice to God?

You are thinking of a god that must be limited by human form. You think that if he is in heaven, he can't also be in human form on earth to experience what his people experience. Who would want a god like that? So limited and powerless?

God isn't limited. However, worshipping Jesus constitutes as idolatry and is wrong.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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4/20/2010 12:27:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/20/2010 12:24:54 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 4/20/2010 11:35:10 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
If Jesus is God, then why follow through with the pretense of the devil attempting to tempt him?

If Jesus is God then why does he, why have you forsaken me? When on the cross?

If Jesus is God then how can he be a sacrifice to God?

You are thinking of a god that must be limited by human form. You think that if he is in heaven, he can't also be in human form on earth to experience what his people experience. Who would want a god like that? So limited and powerless?

Not at all. I can accept God existing both in heaven and in human form on earth at the same time, but Jesus is not consistent with such a model. Jesus is not God.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.