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Religion is an Excuse

Such
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10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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10/25/2014 12:05:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.

I see. Is it reasonable for me to assume that what you're saying is "We don't need religion to be moral! Religion is just a distraction from being moral!"?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Such
Posts: 1,110
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10/25/2014 12:10:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 12:05:54 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.

I see. Is it reasonable for me to assume that what you're saying is "We don't need religion to be moral! Religion is just a distraction from being moral!"?

Well... somewhat. More that, religion is just an excuse to accept you're immoral. If you accept that you're immoral, religious rituals aren't going to make you moral. Folding your hands and talking to yourself at night wouldn't make you moral. If you want to be a moral person, you need to live a righteous life.

Instead of preaching and engaging in weird rituals, people should spend their time doing good things for people. Instead of tithing, if a church with 1,000 attendees had each of them contribute $10 every Sunday, they could do something great for their community with a budget of $10,000, which is so significant, every church in every small town would make a significant enough difference to end hunger.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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10/25/2014 12:14:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.

Can you explain how you see Christianity as a way to not be a good person?
Such
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10/25/2014 12:20:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 12:14:55 PM, stubs wrote:
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.

Can you explain how you see Christianity as a way to not be a good person?

The way I see it as like this. If you're a good person, then you would do good things. You would be selfless, considerate, humble, and honest. It wouldn't require any sort of allegiance, ritual, or whatever.

If you're a bad person, I think an easy way to make yourself feel better about it is to say, "well, an incomprehensible being made me this way," and do whatever meaningless rituals that person says will make it okay to pretend you're a good person. Then, go to spokespersons for that being once a week and give that person money (your favorite thing, presumably), and you're set to go, right? Well, that sounds like the perfect summation of Christianity and most religions, and it sounds outright preposterous.

Instead, people should focus on being good people, not supporting and defending a belief system alone. If that belief system were so conducive to good people, then it would focus on that, rather than singing, praying, confession, Church attendance, and tithing.
stubs
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10/25/2014 12:35:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 12:20:25 PM, Such wrote:
The way I see it as like this. If you're a good person, then you would do good things. You would be selfless, considerate, humble, and honest. It wouldn't require any sort of allegiance, ritual, or whatever.

Why would a Christian disagree with this?

If you're a bad person, I think an easy way to make yourself feel better about it is to say, "well, an incomprehensible being made me this way,"

A lot of Christians don't don't think that's how it works.

and do whatever meaningless rituals that person says will make it okay to pretend you're a good person. Then, go to spokespersons for that being once a week and give that person money (your favorite thing, presumably), and you're set to go, right?

Most Christians don't believe that either.

Well, that sounds like the perfect summation of Christianity and most religions, and it sounds outright preposterous.

That doesn't sound anything like the bible.

Instead, people should focus on being good people, not supporting and defending a belief system alone. If that belief system were so conducive to good people, then it would focus on that, rather than singing, praying, confession, Church attendance, and tithing.

It can't focus on all the above?
Such
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10/25/2014 12:53:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 12:35:34 PM, stubs wrote:
At 10/25/2014 12:20:25 PM, Such wrote:
The way I see it as like this. If you're a good person, then you would do good things. You would be selfless, considerate, humble, and honest. It wouldn't require any sort of allegiance, ritual, or whatever.

Why would a Christian disagree with this?

I don't know. Christians seem to believe that one needs to reflect a given perspective, belief, even sexuality, before those things even matter.

If you're a bad person, I think an easy way to make yourself feel better about it is to say, "well, an incomprehensible being made me this way,"

A lot of Christians don't don't think that's how it works.

"God made me a sinner, and the only way that I can be good in God's eyes is if I confess my sins, get Baptized, and accept Jesus as my Lord and savior."

If a lot of Christians don't believe that anymore, that's awesome, but the last time I went to church, and for the two decades I attended it preceding that, it was precisely that way.

and do whatever meaningless rituals that person says will make it okay to pretend you're a good person. Then, go to spokespersons for that being once a week and give that person money (your favorite thing, presumably), and you're set to go, right?

Most Christians don't believe that either.

I would hope not, but it sure doesn't seem that way. The U.S. is mostly Christian, and it's also full of asssholes. Seems to be a disconnect there.

Well, that sounds like the perfect summation of Christianity and most religions, and it sounds outright preposterous.

That doesn't sound anything like the bible.

I agree! But, I also aver that the majority of all Christian worship throughout history as I've read and seen it, does not reflect the doctrine.

Instead, people should focus on being good people, not supporting and defending a belief system alone. If that belief system were so conducive to good people, then it would focus on that, rather than singing, praying, confession, Church attendance, and tithing.

It can't focus on all the above?

Of course it can... but, I don't see why it needs to, and more importantly, I don't see that it does.

Christianity would be hard to contradict if it truly produced inarguably good people.
Vox_Veritas
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10/25/2014 1:05:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 12:10:58 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/25/2014 12:05:54 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.

I see. Is it reasonable for me to assume that what you're saying is "We don't need religion to be moral! Religion is just a distraction from being moral!"?

Well... somewhat. More that, religion is just an excuse to accept you're immoral. If you accept that you're immoral, religious rituals aren't going to make you moral. Folding your hands and talking to yourself at night wouldn't make you moral. If you want to be a moral person, you need to live a righteous life.

Instead of preaching and engaging in weird rituals, people should spend their time doing good things for people. Instead of tithing, if a church with 1,000 attendees had each of them contribute $10 every Sunday, they could do something great for their community with a budget of $10,000, which is so significant, every church in every small town would make a significant enough difference to end hunger.

I agree...to an extent. While God does command His servants to care for the poor and those in need, worshipping God comes first. It is the reason that humans were created. "Weird rituals" will not make one more Holy. You are correct in this regard. However, neither will simply "being holy". Good deeds cannot eliminate your sinful nature; instead of focusing simply on being good and not doing bad, one should focus on and abide in Christ, and all these other things will be added to you as you become more Christlike.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Such
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10/25/2014 1:20:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 1:05:41 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/25/2014 12:10:58 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/25/2014 12:05:54 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.

I see. Is it reasonable for me to assume that what you're saying is "We don't need religion to be moral! Religion is just a distraction from being moral!"?

Well... somewhat. More that, religion is just an excuse to accept you're immoral. If you accept that you're immoral, religious rituals aren't going to make you moral. Folding your hands and talking to yourself at night wouldn't make you moral. If you want to be a moral person, you need to live a righteous life.

Instead of preaching and engaging in weird rituals, people should spend their time doing good things for people. Instead of tithing, if a church with 1,000 attendees had each of them contribute $10 every Sunday, they could do something great for their community with a budget of $10,000, which is so significant, every church in every small town would make a significant enough difference to end hunger.

I agree...to an extent. While God does command His servants to care for the poor and those in need, worshipping God comes first. It is the reason that humans were created. "Weird rituals" will not make one more Holy. You are correct in this regard. However, neither will simply "being holy". Good deeds cannot eliminate your sinful nature; instead of focusing simply on being good and not doing bad, one should focus on and abide in Christ, and all these other things will be added to you as you become more Christlike.

See, and this is what I have a problem with. First, there's, "I'm a sinner, and there's nothing I can do about it unless I subscribe to these rituals," and then there's, "You're a good person, but you're not good enough until you subscribe to these rituals/this worldview."

Both a equally flawed, in my opinion. A God that deserves worship would promote righteousness in and of itself, despite beliefs or rituals.

If you were to read the Bible, you'd see that it agrees.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/25/2014 1:33:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 11:59:37 AM, Such wrote:
So, I was thinking, and it occurred to me that much of religion is rituals, superstition, and some means of attaining what should already be attained by good people.
It's the easy route. You can work hard to help others, or talk to their pretend creator on their behalf, rarely if ever seeing the realization of your pleas. But at least you asked. You simply asked an empty sky and fittingly, demonstrate no surprise when your requests go unfulfilled.

Perhaps, then, religion is just an excuse not to be a good person. Take Christianity, for example. Orient your hands in a certain way, close your eyes, and speak to no one in particular, saying things that you'd be expected to say in front of a crowd of a hundred or more people, and you're suddenly a good person. Kind of detracts from actually trying to be a good person, though, because being a good person has nothing to do with placing your hands in a certain way, limiting your sight, or talking to yourself.
Christianity takes the excuse not to be good a step further by offering that you have already been forgiven your discretions, even before you make them. All one must do is accept complicity in a horrendous and unjust tormented death, and then reap the benefits. But if one stands on ethics and refuses to reap the benefits gained through the barbarity, then you are not afforded any benefit, and will be seen as worthy of eternal torment.

If you're not willing to pound the nails yourself, you shouldn't be willing to accept the proceeds. But Christianity teaches an inverse of integrity and ethics, by demanding that "good people" happily accept the proceeds of the slaughter of an innocent.

Church should have nothing to do with rituals and recitations. It should be run like a nonprofit.

Prayer shouldn't exist.
But without prayer, people might see fit to actually do something.
The fun part about prayer is that it demonstrates the pure fallacy of Christianity. The Christian God can only do what facilitates the greater good. So if you pray for that which doesn't facilitate the greater good, God will not grant your request. And if you do pray for that which facilitates the greater good, God was going to do so anyway. He has no choice.

People should do things for the sake of being right, and discard any preoccupation with hell.
But then they would have no fallacious threat to toss at those who discount their fallacious claims.

Judgement among men shouldn't exist.

Discuss.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
stubs
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10/25/2014 9:25:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/25/2014 12:53:21 PM, Such wrote:
At 10/25/2014 12:35:34 PM, stubs wrote:
A lot of Christians don't don't think that's how it works.

"God made me a sinner, and the only way that I can be good in God's eyes is if I confess my sins, get Baptized, and accept Jesus as my Lord and savior."

If a lot of Christians don't believe that anymore, that's awesome, but the last time I went to church, and for the two decades I attended it preceding that, it was precisely that way.

And how is that an excuse to be immoral? That seems to be more like simply an acknowledgment of wrong doing, and actually baptism was always, in history, paired with repentance. So you actually are disproving your point that it is an excuse to be immoral. It was actually used to spur on moral behavior.

I would hope not, but it sure doesn't seem that way. The U.S. is mostly Christian, and it's also full of asssholes. Seems to be a disconnect there.

I hear you. It also does not effect the truth value of claims of Christianity.

I agree! But, I also aver that the majority of all Christian worship throughout history as I've read and seen it, does not reflect the doctrine.

So are you claiming that Christians are immoral or the proposition is untruthful?

Of course it can... but, I don't see why it needs to, and more importantly, I don't see that it does.

Christianity would be hard to contradict if it truly produced inarguably good people.

Is anything always going to produce unarguable good people?
popculturepooka
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10/26/2014 11:41:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Whenever people argue against "religion" like this I often scratch my head in puzzlement. What YOU view as religion simply has no purchase with what the lived religious experience is like for many. It's like you are talking about something wholly other.
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