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Atheists: what's the point?

Benshapiro
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10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?

It doesn't have to be eternal in order to be meaningful. If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,. If atheism is true, there is no meaning to our lives and none of our experiences are captured. Knowledge, truth, love, etc., is fiction. It's a fleeting illusion. All of it will be destroyed someday in our impending doom. So what's the point of chasing those ideals of anything for that matter if it's ultimately meaningless and pointless?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2014 1:06:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

Meaningful:
having meaning.
having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/27/2014 1:17:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

I assign values in my life and prioritize certain aspects, that would be my point to life. I was not born with an inherent understanding to comport with an "ultimate or divine entity", you may label it as you may, but the few inherent functions objectively, that serve a purpose are my sexual abilities to procreate, consuming food, and surviving.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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10/27/2014 1:20:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:17:23 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

I assign values in my life and prioritize certain aspects, that would be my point to life. I was not born with an inherent understanding to comport with an "ultimate or divine entity", you may label it as you may, but the few inherent functions objectively, that serve a purpose are my sexual abilities to procreate, consuming food, and surviving.

Even those few functions don't serve an objective purpose. How could you even argue that logically?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,210
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10/27/2014 1:27:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.

First, in nine trillion or so years, so I am not terribly worried about my calendar being full.

Second, in the grand scheme of the universe, why do you need to feel so important? I have my life, of which I live and love with people, of which those things are important to me. An 'impending' event that occurs beyond my comprehension, dare I say further away than the universe has been 'alive', doesn't frighten me. My life, and those things and people in it are what gives me a sense of duty an accomplishment.

To put a real fine point on it: why should I torment myself with an overly watchful boogeyman, and how does that all of a sudden bring meaning and importance? Why can't you do all the things you would have done under His gaze, just without worry of Hell fire, even after heat death?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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10/27/2014 1:28:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:20:48 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:17:23 AM, intellectuallyprimitive wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

I assign values in my life and prioritize certain aspects, that would be my point to life. I was not born with an inherent understanding to comport with an "ultimate or divine entity", you may label it as you may, but the few inherent functions objectively, that serve a purpose are my sexual abilities to procreate, consuming food, and surviving.

Even those few functions don't serve an objective purpose. How could you even argue that logically?

To which functions do you refer?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/27/2014 1:35:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?

It doesn't have to be eternal in order to be meaningful. If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,. If atheism is true, there is no meaning to our lives and none of our experiences are captured. Knowledge, truth, love, etc., is fiction. It's a fleeting illusion. All of it will be destroyed someday in our impending doom. So what's the point of chasing those ideals of anything for that matter if it's ultimately meaningless and pointless?

That's just not true, Ben. Whether a God exists or not, our lives still have meaning. I can't even conceive of an outlook that is so lame, that you could possibly think your experiences with your parents, siblings, girlfriends, wife, children etc., all just become meaningless because there isn't any over-bearing, over-seeing, something to report to for the rest of eternity. To me that's just incredibly dismissive of everything we know to be powerfully meaningful in life. I would love to believe that at some point, my fiance and I will be together again. But there simply isn't a scrap of evidence on which to base such a belief. And if that doesn't happen, it does nothing to affect how much she meant to me for the short time we were together. I'm not trying to take this personally, or direct it back to you personally, but I can't imagine how anyone is supposed to consider such an idea, and not instantly take some level of offense. It so cheapens life and everything in it, to place the entire value of meaning on the existence of some entity too detached from us to even let us know beyond doubt, that it actually exists. That's like basing all of the meaning in your life, on whether or not a guy named "Ralph" lives in a hidden cave, on the other side of the world, and never even bothers to try to communicate with you. But somehow, you just dismiss life's most intense interactions and the value inherent in everything you do, everyone you know, and mostly, everything anyone has ever done for you, just because they find value in who you are... taking all of that and holding it over a garbage can, prepared to drop it and pretend it never mattered, because maybe Ralph isn't sitting in that cave, so unconcerned with you, that he never even showed himself to you.

To me, I can't conceive of a more pathetic outlook to hold on life.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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10/27/2014 1:37:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:27:26 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.


First, in nine trillion or so years, so I am not terribly worried about my calendar being full.

Second, in the grand scheme of the universe, why do you need to feel so important? I have my life, of which I live and love with people, of which those things are important to me. An 'impending' event that occurs beyond my comprehension, dare I say further away than the universe has been 'alive', doesn't frighten me. My life, and those things and people in it are what gives me a sense of duty an accomplishment.

To put a real fine point on it: why should I torment myself with an overly watchful boogeyman, and how does that all of a sudden bring meaning and importance? Why can't you do all the things you would have done under His gaze, just without worry of Hell fire, even after heat death?

Because life would be pointless from beginning to end. It makes no difference what you do with your life in the grand scheme of things. The person who produces the most serotonin or feel good chemicals in his/her brain will live the most ideal life in the grand scheme of things. If God exists, our experiences and our lives are measured against an ultimate source of truth. knowledge, love, etc and our experiences and lives do have an underlying significance and point.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,210
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10/27/2014 1:41:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:37:11 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:27:26 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.


First, in nine trillion or so years, so I am not terribly worried about my calendar being full.

Second, in the grand scheme of the universe, why do you need to feel so important? I have my life, of which I live and love with people, of which those things are important to me. An 'impending' event that occurs beyond my comprehension, dare I say further away than the universe has been 'alive', doesn't frighten me. My life, and those things and people in it are what gives me a sense of duty an accomplishment.

To put a real fine point on it: why should I torment myself with an overly watchful boogeyman, and how does that all of a sudden bring meaning and importance? Why can't you do all the things you would have done under His gaze, just without worry of Hell fire, even after heat death?

Because life would be pointless from beginning to end. It makes no difference what you do with your life in the grand scheme of things. The person who produces the most serotonin or feel good chemicals in his/her brain will live the most ideal life in the grand scheme of things. If God exists, our experiences and our lives are measured against an ultimate source of truth. knowledge, love, etc and our experiences and lives do have an underlying significance and point.

If there is eternal damnation or reward, it doesn't make much difference either, as its still a finite test bed, it just so happens that you have done your works for your own gain, rather than a a genuine desire for others.

If YOUR version of God exists as you state, then sure, but that sounds a lot more like your Serotonin, etc, than any actual explanation for WHY His approval might devalue what you enjoy at His whims.

I am sorry your life needs a yardstick in another dimension by which to measure it.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2014 1:44:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.

That currency in you wallet right now...it will eventually be worthless. Why does it have value to you?

You are welcome to send the worthless stuff to me.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,963
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10/27/2014 1:45:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:35:32 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?

It doesn't have to be eternal in order to be meaningful. If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,. If atheism is true, there is no meaning to our lives and none of our experiences are captured. Knowledge, truth, love, etc., is fiction. It's a fleeting illusion. All of it will be destroyed someday in our impending doom. So what's the point of chasing those ideals of anything for that matter if it's ultimately meaningless and pointless?

That's just not true, Ben. Whether a God exists or not, our lives still have meaning. I can't even conceive of an outlook that is so lame, that you could possibly think your experiences with your parents, siblings, girlfriends, wife, children etc., all just become meaningless because there isn't any over-bearing, over-seeing, something to report to for the rest of eternity. To me that's just incredibly dismissive of everything we know to be powerfully meaningful in life. I would love to believe that at some point, my fiance and I will be together again. But there simply isn't a scrap of evidence on which to base such a belief. And if that doesn't happen, it does nothing to affect how much she meant to me for the short time we were together. I'm not trying to take this personally, or direct it back to you personally, but I can't imagine how anyone is supposed to consider such an idea, and not instantly take some level of offense. It so cheapens life and everything in it, to place the entire value of meaning on the existence of some entity too detached from us to even let us know beyond doubt, that it actually exists. That's like basing all of the meaning in your life, on whether or not a guy named "Ralph" lives in a hidden cave, on the other side of the world, and never even bothers to try to communicate with you. But somehow, you just dismiss life's most intense interactions and the value inherent in everything you do, everyone you know, and mostly, everything anyone has ever done for you, just because they find value in who you are... taking all of that and holding it over a garbage can, prepared to drop it and pretend it never mattered, because maybe Ralph isn't sitting in that cave, so unconcerned with you, that he never even showed himself to you.

To me, I can't conceive of a more pathetic outlook to hold on life.

Well sadly it's true Beast and you know it. If the universe gave rise to humans by random interactions and the universe itself is facing impending doom then there is absolutely nothing meaningful or important in life in the grand scheme of things. If there is a God, our experiences are meaningful and important. I believe that our innate moral code tells us the traits of God. These traits will exist in the purest form when looking back at our life in the afterlife.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/27/2014 1:46:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.

In the grand scheme of things? I wouldn't even want to hold the pretense of believing that I should have meaning in the grand pretense of things. Do you have to be president of your country to feel like a vital member? Must you be the absolute best ever to exist - at some special skill or talent - before you can see your life as meaningful? What is so wrong with living the best life you can, developing your mind in the areas you find most intriguing, finding that one person in your life which gives your life color, and flavor and moments diversely sad and happy, and just soaking in the richness of what really matters? Why this intense longing for some kind of meaningless "glory" and admiration? So what if 99.9999999999% of the universe is never affected one way or another by your presence? Why does that matter? It's the 0.0000000001% that should matter to you. You need to learn to matter to you, rather than mattering to the things that couldn't possibly ever matter to you. Why waste your only existence, pursuing what will never matter, while ignoring everything around you - that tiny fragment of existence - which actually could, should, and can matter to you?

Give me adequate shelter, food, a moderate number of experiences in life, and mostly - give me that one person through who my life takes on the properties of brilliance, sadness, joy, love, infatuation, admiration, usefulness... and I could want for little more. Who cares about the "grand scheme of things"? Why should anyone care? It only devalues the immediate scheme which is so rich with the rewards, pleasures and even the hardships of existence itself.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
biznis
Posts: 125
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10/27/2014 1:47:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?

Sorry for your loss.....

May I ask an off topic question?

Can something non-eternal.....be made to be eternal? Theoretically? This is a serious question from me...... I'm not sure if it's an intelligent question...but can you give me a serious answer?

Thanks for your opinion
bulproof
Posts: 25,226
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10/27/2014 1:53:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
It doesn't have to be eternal in order to be meaningful. If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,.

Only if it's your particular flavour of god out of the many thousands of god flavours.
Hubris much?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/27/2014 2:12:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:45:53 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:35:32 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?

It doesn't have to be eternal in order to be meaningful. If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,. If atheism is true, there is no meaning to our lives and none of our experiences are captured. Knowledge, truth, love, etc., is fiction. It's a fleeting illusion. All of it will be destroyed someday in our impending doom. So what's the point of chasing those ideals of anything for that matter if it's ultimately meaningless and pointless?

That's just not true, Ben. Whether a God exists or not, our lives still have meaning. I can't even conceive of an outlook that is so lame, that you could possibly think your experiences with your parents, siblings, girlfriends, wife, children etc., all just become meaningless because there isn't any over-bearing, over-seeing, something to report to for the rest of eternity. To me that's just incredibly dismissive of everything we know to be powerfully meaningful in life. I would love to believe that at some point, my fiance and I will be together again. But there simply isn't a scrap of evidence on which to base such a belief. And if that doesn't happen, it does nothing to affect how much she meant to me for the short time we were together. I'm not trying to take this personally, or direct it back to you personally, but I can't imagine how anyone is supposed to consider such an idea, and not instantly take some level of offense. It so cheapens life and everything in it, to place the entire value of meaning on the existence of some entity too detached from us to even let us know beyond doubt, that it actually exists. That's like basing all of the meaning in your life, on whether or not a guy named "Ralph" lives in a hidden cave, on the other side of the world, and never even bothers to try to communicate with you. But somehow, you just dismiss life's most intense interactions and the value inherent in everything you do, everyone you know, and mostly, everything anyone has ever done for you, just because they find value in who you are... taking all of that and holding it over a garbage can, prepared to drop it and pretend it never mattered, because maybe Ralph isn't sitting in that cave, so unconcerned with you, that he never even showed himself to you.

To me, I can't conceive of a more pathetic outlook to hold on life.

Well sadly it's true Beast and you know it. If the universe gave rise to humans by random interactions and the universe itself is facing impending doom then there is absolutely nothing meaningful or important in life in the grand scheme of things. If there is a God, our experiences are meaningful and important. I believe that our innate moral code tells us the traits of God. These traits will exist in the purest form when looking back at our life in the afterlife.

No Ben, it's not true. You are so completely missing the point that I - who have nothing of what mattered to me left in life - feel absolutely sorry for you. Nothing could be any less true than the synthetic plastic-bouquet glob of error you just wrote. I seriously hope that if you've never sincerely contemplated anything I've every written to you before, that you focus genuinely on this;

Lose everything in your life that matters. Hopefully, only for a little while. But actually experience that. And you'll never again ever worry about eternity, infinity, the universe, God, an afterlife, fame, money, extravagances or any need for recognition beyond who you are in the eyes of the people closest to you in your tiny little speck of the universe. When you lose what really matters, you suddenly gain an understanding of what does and doesn't matter. And I can tell you that from both my perspective, and the perspective of my late fiance as the reality of what was happening to her began to close in. Her focus shifted from a better house, a newer car, a higher-paying job, a better neighborhood, richer foods, better cameras, bigger kilns (she was a ceramic artist), to being with me, where we lived, together... for the rest of our lives. It's all she wanted. And she didn't get that. And all I wanted for the 20-years before her, while I was sad, and alone, and hating every day of my life because I lacked some special person to share life with, was to have that one person who thought I was worth spending their life with. And less than 3-years after we found each other, she died. Neither of us had a clue she was even sick until 10-months before she died.

And now, you could offer me an eternity, the lottery, a monstrous mansion covering a hillside, fame, recognition, women, cars, trips, admiration, glory... it means nothing. None of that is of any importance at all, Ben. When you spend your life chasing the things that aren't in your immediate grasp, the things beyond the people who are close to you in your life, you squander your life. And if your life lasted forever, you'd squander and eternity in pursuit of a plastic sense of meaning, that will never mean a damned thing.

Look around you. Do you have a serviceable home? A wife who loves you? Are you not starving? Do you have interests in your life? If so, then you're rich beyond anything eternity, glory, fame, recognition or even the love of a creator of universes could ever bring you. And you're so busy looking past that, that you're letting it go by unnoticed. What a shame.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/27/2014 2:18:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:47:32 AM, biznis wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?


Sorry for your loss.....

May I ask an off topic question?

Can something non-eternal.....be made to be eternal? Theoretically? This is a serious question from me...... I'm not sure if it's an intelligent question...but can you give me a serious answer?

Thanks for your opinion

My best answer is that based on what we know (which isn't all that much in this regard), everything is eternal, but in constant flux. This universe will not last forever, and will never cease to be. The basic components from which all things are formed, appear not to have an ability to cease to exist. But nothing retains a particular state eternally. So the rock outside your front door will someday become dust, and eventually, even that dust will change form. Perhaps it will become energy. Maybe it will become dark-matter or something we've not even begun to suspect exists. But I suspect that it is forever. It's just never forever in a given form. And because our lives and our consciousness are a manifestation from the form we have while we're alive, we will not exist forever as who we are, or as a consciousness that we are. We - the person, the consciousness, the living things - will cease to exist. But the specs of the things which form our bodies will remain forever, because they can do nothing else.

And thank you for your words.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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10/27/2014 2:24:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:06:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

Meaningful:
having meaning.
having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose.

...to whom? Ben seems to think it needs to be meaningful to an eternal entity - which for all of the evidence reality provides, likely does not exist. I think it only needs to be meaningful for the one experiencing that existence, for the period they experience it.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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10/27/2014 7:10:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:44:47 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:13:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:08:36 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 1:01:05 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:59:09 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Why does how life begins or how it ends have anything to do with living a meaningful life?

How would you describe what something meaningful is?

I've defined it for ya, now answer my question.

Now ask yourself how your life has any serious importance or purpose in the grand scheme of things in a universe that created you from randomness and is currently facing an impending heat death.

That currency in you wallet right now...it will eventually be worthless. Why does it have value to you?
You are welcome to send the worthless stuff to me.

Bump
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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10/27/2014 7:30:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Here we go again. Poor Ben can't understand how atheists lead meaningful and purposeful lives. He's going to insist that they can't, even though they obviously do. Why, there have been and are today, largely atheistic societies which have functioned just fine. All the atheists haven't hurled themselves over cliffs like lemmings because their lives held no meaning. It's absurd to even raise this as an issue.

Here's a hint, Ben. If you can't imagine the worldview of an atheist then don't try. If you, as a deist or theist or whatever you are, need an imaginary external entity to lend meaning to your life, then go for it. Meanwhile you let us atheists worry about whether our lives have meaning or not. We get along just fine without nitwits trying to tell us how we should think.

Meanwhile you might want to ponder why your 'benevolent' god has created a universe which winds down and dies. What's that all about? He was incapable of producing a universe that lasted? Lol.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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10/27/2014 7:40:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:42:19 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Lives are finite. Why do theists think that anything which isn't eternal, is meaningless? Is sex meaningless? I don't know about you, but I don't think I could handle an eternal orgasm. That doesn't make them meaningless. Name anything that can be shown to last eternally (demonstrable, via objective evidence). If you can't think of anything, yet you still choose to cope with the rigors of life, there must be something meaningful to you about it. And I agree. Life is meaningful. My life was never more meaningful than when my fiance and I were together (before her death). I must admit to a very serious loss of meaning since then. And still, I remain.

So at least answer this; why do you think that "meaningful", has to mean "eternal"?

It doesn't have to be eternal in order to be meaningful. If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,. If atheism is true, there is no meaning to our lives and none of our experiences are captured. Knowledge, truth, love, etc., is fiction. It's a fleeting illusion. All of it will be destroyed someday in our impending doom. So what's the point of chasing those ideals of anything for that matter if it's ultimately meaningless and pointless?

If believing in a god makes you feel like your life is meaningful, and that's the only way you can feel like your life has any meaning, then please never stop believing in a god. The fact is that your god either exists or it doesn't, and it's possible that your god doesn't exist. Whether or not he does, you're going to feel like your life is meaningful as long as you keep believing. And if your god doesn't exist, if no gods exist, then your sense of meaningfulness comes from a lie.

I'd personally rather ascribe meaning to my life based on what I can reasonably know to be true: I've probably done more good than harm while I was alive, I've experienced a lot of joy, and my kids probably will do the same. Beyond that, just living as long as I can for as long as life is more joy than pain is meaningful enough for me.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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10/27/2014 7:57:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

That is only on the assumption that I can only value life if there is some overall purpose or 'end'. I am an emotional being, and hence my values are grounded in fulfilling my emotions. If I had no emotions, then there would be no point, since I would have no values, I would just be machinery with no preference for certain outcomes over others.

I can ask the same question of theists, since their additional stage of our
One from god only pushes the question back 1 stage further, is there a point to god? And to any answer, why is that answer meaningful?
dee-em
Posts: 6,469
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10/27/2014 8:25:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 1:37:11 AM, Benshapiro wrote:

Because life would be pointless from beginning to end. It makes no difference what you do with your life in the grand scheme of things. The person who produces the most serotonin or feel good chemicals in his/her brain will live the most ideal life in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, yes, tell us one more time how pointless an atheist's life must be. Perhaps if you repeat it one more time you just might make it true. Lol.

If God exists, our experiences and our lives are measured against an ultimate source of truth. knowledge, love, etc and our experiences and lives do have an underlying significance and point.

And that significance and point is? What are we here for, Ben? Enlighten us. The god you imagine obviously doesn't need us otherwise we would have been around for more than the last half a million years. All you have is wishful thinking as to what this alleged god would do for us. Where does that belief come from, thin air?
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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10/27/2014 11:39:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:38:20 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
Someday the universe will reach heat death as the amount of usable energy approaches maximum entropy. No life will be able exist anymore.

So what's the point? If life began pointlessly and ends pointlessly, how do you reconcile that with anything you hold to be meaningful or important in your life?

Because I am alive during a time that the universe won't end. Also, have you heard Neil degrasse Tyson?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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10/27/2014 8:22:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/27/2014 12:57:29 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
If there is a God, our experiences are captured and our lives are held to an ultimate embodiment of truth, love, wisdom, etc,. If atheism is true, there is no meaning to our lives and none of our experiences are captured.

And what difference does any of this make to your life now?