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Religion For Secularists?

GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/21/2010 3:32:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This something that I was thinking about recently after a discussion in my World Religions class. During a lecture, a student brought up science and used it to justify a metaphysical claim. And the teacher responded that science can't answer those questions we should leave things to their respective fields (he's also talks about (and is against) reductionism and how psychologists try to reduce religion to psychological terms.

Anyways, during that discussion, I countered (with regards to the questions science can't answer), "Why can't philosophy suppliment science rather than religion?" thinking that I just dispensed of religion in the argument.

He answered the question and added that philosophy cant replace religion because religion (being its own separate field from philosophy) is something that is more emotionally involved and powerful for people. (Thats not exactly how he said it, but close.)

And I thought to myself, well, actually you're right. Good point.

So, why is it that secularists have a more apathetic attitude towards their path in life? Why no devotional hymns? Why don't they live by whatever philosophy they follow instead of act apathetic towards it or consider it a side hobby?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/21/2010 4:36:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Secularist can have any way of living but it means nothing. Any morality they might have, as nice as it is, is worth nothing, and is equal to the same natures as religion. My all means, they can be anything they want but it must be treated the same.

+What that teacher said is enough.

They can live, hymn, sing and love all they want but that nature must be treated with the same lesser apathetic treatment as religion, each to her own.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/21/2010 4:40:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Religion is simply a model of metaphysics, ethics and a guide to living. Individual philosophy can easily fulfill same.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/21/2010 4:43:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 4:36:47 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Secularist can have any way of living but it means nothing.

Life's meaning is in the living of it.

Any morality they might have, as nice as it is, is worth nothing

A moral system is guide of right/wrong in regards to evaluating action. As such it is a model on how to live life according to that moral system. Religious moral systems are no different.

and is equal to the same natures as religion.

Huh?

My all means, they can be anything they want but it must be treated the same.

Huh?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/21/2010 6:24:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 4:40:05 PM, Puck wrote:
Religion is simply a model of metaphysics, ethics and a guide to living. Individual philosophy can easily fulfill same.


Ok, then how come you don't have devotional songs? Or a symbol like the Jesus fish embedded on the back of your car?

I think that's what distinguishes religion from philosophy. It's the devotional aspect of religion that separates it from philosophy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/21/2010 7:27:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 6:24:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/21/2010 4:40:05 PM, Puck wrote:
Religion is simply a model of metaphysics, ethics and a guide to living. Individual philosophy can easily fulfill same.


Ok, then how come you don't have devotional songs? Or a symbol like the Jesus fish embedded on the back of your car?

Because that isn't a necessary component of religion or philosophy. Bad aesthetic choices, sure. :P Also, you have never seen the Darwin fish on cars? lol Let's say there's this Christian group, meets once a week to talk over coffee. It's a huge success. Soon they blog, twitter, facebook it, groups spring up everywhere talking bible over coffee. In fact it becomes so fashionable that millions do it every week, meet in small groups over coffee to talk about the bible. Now, is drinking coffee while talking about the Bible at this stage "Christian" or "part of the religion"? Not at all. Same with all those other extra hang ons like singing, and stickers and Jesus loves you pictures on a wall.

I think that's what distinguishes religion from philosophy. It's the devotional aspect of religion that separates it from philosophy.

Certain religions encourage devotion, that's separate.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/21/2010 9:53:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 6:24:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/21/2010 4:40:05 PM, Puck wrote:
Religion is simply a model of metaphysics, ethics and a guide to living. Individual philosophy can easily fulfill same.


Ok, then how come you don't have devotional songs? Or a symbol like the Jesus fish embedded on the back of your car?

I'm thinkin bout getting an eagle (being) and snake(knowledge) (nietzsche's representations of "man") Tattoo...

prolly somethin similar in content to this...

http://www.livius.org...

though maybe with the snake half-swallowing an apple... just to make it rather clear... :)

and also the Eagles gonna be so badass everyone knows who wins out...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/22/2010 3:07:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 3:32:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Anyways, during that discussion, I countered (with regards to the questions science can't answer), "Why can't philosophy suppliment science rather than religion?" thinking that I just dispensed of religion in the argument.


Philosophy generally does suppliment science as opposed to religion.

He answered the question and added that philosophy cant replace religion because religion (being its own separate field from philosophy) is something that is more emotionally involved and powerful for people. (Thats not exactly how he said it, but close.)

That is often the case, but there is no clear divide between religion and philosophy.


And I thought to myself, well, actually you're right. Good point.

So, why is it that secularists have a more apathetic attitude towards their path in life? Why no devotional hymns? Why don't they live by whatever philosophy they follow instead of act apathetic towards it or consider it a side hobby?

Bit of a non-sequiter isn't it?
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/22/2010 7:18:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 3:32:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So, why is it that secularists have a more apathetic attitude towards their path in life? Why no devotional hymns? Why don't they live by whatever philosophy they follow instead of act apathetic towards it or consider it a side hobby?

my guess is because secularists aren't interested in singing hymns lol. when was the last time you went to church and people were actually singing along rather than just mumbling half heartedly :P

also i think what you're trying to get at isn't so much devotional as it is ritualistic. if you wanna know why secularists tend not to have rituals, its because rituals tend not to make sense... and theres a lot less of a premium on orthodoxy and following tradition in secular communities.

if you want to talk about the lack of community amongst secular groups you'd have a point. probably due to the fact that its a lot harder for a matter of disbeliving something to bring a bunch of disparate people together than it is for a positive belief like "we are all the children of god" or something
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Floid
Posts: 751
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4/22/2010 10:31:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
He answered the question and added that philosophy cant replace religion because religion (being its own separate field from philosophy) is something that is more emotionally involved and powerful for people. (Thats not exactly how he said it, but close.)

In that I would partially disagree with your teacher. In one sense philosophy and religion are separate fields because they take two different approaches: one intellectual and one emotional. But in another sense they are closely related because they both attempt to answer the same questions: what is moral, why are we here, what is our purpose, etc.

So, why is it that secularists have a more apathetic attitude towards their path in life?

They don't. I would say in some cases they have a much less apathetic attitude because they believe they are solely responsible for themselves (they don't have some divine being on their side, some divine being trying to trick them into doing wrong, etc).

Why no devotional hymns?

What does that matter?

Why don't they live by whatever philosophy they follow instead of act apathetic towards it or consider it a side hobby?

I think by definition one lives by whatever philosophy they follow. That is a strangely worded question.

Secularist can have any way of living but it means nothing.

I would hardly claim that George Carlin, Mark Twain, or Bertrand Russell (just to name a few) lived lives that meant nothing.

Ok, then how come you don't have devotional songs?

Where does this imaginary requirement for a devotional song come from?

Or a symbol like the Jesus fish embedded on the back of your car?

Why must I define myself with a simple symbol? What do you think that is somehow necessary for anything?

I think that's what distinguishes religion from philosophy.

No, what distinguishes religion from philosophy is the belief in some supernatural being that gave you your system of thought (religion) versus a logical attempt at building your system of thought (philosophy).

also I think what you're trying to get at isn't so much devotional as it is ritualistic

Exactly, a symbol and a song isn't necessary for a religion. They represent the ritual side of things that basically build brand recognition, which psychologically is a tool to foster devotion and allegiance. Why do you think companies have common jingles and logos? Or take countries with national anthems and flags. Or even the Nazis with a swastika. Common symbology is used to illicit blind support and not foster independent thinking.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/22/2010 11:06:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/21/2010 6:24:57 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 4/21/2010 4:40:05 PM, Puck wrote:
Religion is simply a model of metaphysics, ethics and a guide to living. Individual philosophy can easily fulfill same.


Ok, then how come you don't have devotional songs? Or a symbol like the Jesus fish embedded on the back of your car?

secularist do have fish on the back of there cars. in fact it has such a similarity to the jesus fish that one would almost suspect a connection. Some fish have feet, some with feet and DARWIN in them; and some instead of feet have rocket fins and SCIENCE in them. http://www.notempire.com... http://www.kitschulike.com... and then ofcourse theres my favorite http://files.shroomery.org... the Flying spagetti decal.

my truck had this one on it before someone tampered with the adheasive that kept it on http://store.answersingenesis.org...
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/23/2010 6:43:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/22/2010 10:31:34 AM, Floid wrote:

I think that's what distinguishes religion from philosophy.

No, what distinguishes religion from philosophy is the belief in some supernatural being that gave you your system of thought (religion) versus a logical attempt at building your system of thought (philosophy).


That distinction isn't all that entirely clear when you look at theology.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Floid
Posts: 751
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4/25/2010 9:21:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/23/2010 6:43:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:31:34 AM, Floid wrote:

I think that's what distinguishes religion from philosophy.

No, what distinguishes religion from philosophy is the belief in some supernatural being that gave you your system of thought (religion) versus a logical attempt at building your system of thought (philosophy).


That distinction isn't all that entirely clear when you look at theology.

But theology is the attempt to try to discern what God really meant when he said X or so forth. It still start with what God said or wants and then builds from there. I guess there might be some grey area with some of the Catholic philosophers who seemed more interested in Greek philosophy than what was stated in the Bible.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/26/2010 9:45:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/25/2010 9:21:05 AM, Floid wrote:
At 4/23/2010 6:43:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/22/2010 10:31:34 AM, Floid wrote:

I think that's what distinguishes religion from philosophy.

No, what distinguishes religion from philosophy is the belief in some supernatural being that gave you your system of thought (religion) versus a logical attempt at building your system of thought (philosophy).


That distinction isn't all that entirely clear when you look at theology.


But theology is the attempt to try to discern what God really meant when he said X or so forth. It still start with what God said or wants and then builds from there. I guess there might be some grey area with some of the Catholic philosophers who seemed more interested in Greek philosophy than what was stated in the Bible.

Err, my bad. I meant natural theology.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!