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Is Theism Rational/Logical

ChristianPunk
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11/2/2014 6:47:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No.

Theism is not logical or rational and for a good reason. It is to automatically make the assumption that a God or creator (who is similar to us, but has holy divine nature) exists and therefore faith is all it takes to believe in him. This is the opposite of rationalism since it takes exploring the boundaries of the claim and at least showing evidence of why you believe he exists. To say you only have faith and nothing will change your mind is irrational.

Why is a theist himself making this? Well ever since I watch AronRa's video of Theism Is Not Rational, I have pondered on the idea. I find it interesting that faith is what it takes to believe in God, but people claim that is reasonable or is evidence alone. I came to the realization that while it may not be rational to believe, the believers themselves can be rational. How so? Well they can't be rational about their religion, just the other stuff.

You can look at a window and use logic and reason to determine that sunlight can come through and brighten the house up if your window is transparent and see through. It's even more logical if you find out the specifics behind the design of the window. This doesn't require a belief in God.

If somebody were to answer the question, What is it that keeps the nucleus in balance? Some people will use logical scientific answers, but theists like Bryan Fischer will say that the only real answer is God. This is not rational and is the sign that a white flag for knowledge has been shown.

Can we solve this problem? If we learn to be more open and reasonable to the secular world, then a theist of any religion can learn to acquire that not all of the things that are deemed bad by it's culture are as bad as they'd imagine.
MEK
Posts: 253
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11/3/2014 11:42:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 9:15:37 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Any thoughts or comments?

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to discuss. It appears you have written a fair argument for why faith and reason are incompatible but then go on to state you are a theist despite this understanding. Are you just trying to state your conflicting thoughts to get others perspectives or were you positing something that I missed?
ChristianPunk
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11/4/2014 7:30:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:42:51 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:15:37 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Any thoughts or comments?

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to discuss. It appears you have written a fair argument for why faith and reason are incompatible but then go on to state you are a theist despite this understanding. Are you just trying to state your conflicting thoughts to get others perspectives or were you positing something that I missed?

I am basically trying to get a conversation started about rationalism and theism. I am stating that while faith not be reasonable, people who faith can still be reasonable about other things. I cling to my faith because I want to.
MEK
Posts: 253
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11/4/2014 10:40:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 7:30:30 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:42:51 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:15:37 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:

I am basically trying to get a conversation started about rationalism and theism. I am stating that while faith not be reasonable, people who faith can still be reasonable about other things. I cling to my faith because I want to.

Ok, great. A few thoughts. I agree, having faith in a religious ideology or dogma does not preclude one from being reasonable in other facets of their lives. For example, Francis Collins, a devout Catholic is also a brilliant geneticist who started the genome project.

I will say and then ask you the same thing I would say and ask Dr Collins. Having faith is basically pretending to know something you cannot possibly know. So, if you use logic and reason to address other areas in your life (decisions about finding a job, finding a good car mechanic, planning a trip abroad or developing a healthy work out schedule) why do you not use the same mental software to address arguably the most important questions we as humans can conceive - why and how are we here, what happens when we die, etc. rather than leave it up to chance?

I will offer an opinion. Having lived on both sides of faith (raised Catholic and now an atheist or anti-theist to be exact) I understand what it "feels" like to believe that God or Christ loves me. There is something very satisfying believing that something or someone is looking out for me and loves me unconditionally. As you can imagine there is an extremely deep rooted emotional basis to this idea. This is why, in my opinion, most religious people become offended or shut down when I challenge their beliefs. They will respond with defensive vitriol or passively say, "This is a personal matter not to be openly discussed."
Well, this is exactly what I would expect one to say who is discussing an area of their lives that has deep emotional projections.

Contrast this to say, you and I are having a discussion about the best way to travel across the country. We both "believe" in a certain specific route for various reasons but if you say to me, "I don't think your route is as efficient because of X,Y or Z", I will most likely weigh your propositions with logic and reason and probably not be offended. This does not happen with discussions that challenge ones religious beliefs.

I believe the most important way to come to a basic understanding of each others different beliefs is to have continued conversations especially in light of the ideology driven horrors occurring in the Middle East with the doctrines of Islam.
So, when you say things like, "I cling to my faith because I want to.", is in a way a conversation stopper because you are not offering any "reasonable" argument to why you cling to your faith.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/4/2014 10:44:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/2/2014 6:47:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
No.

Theism is not logical or rational and for a good reason. It is to automatically make the assumption that a God or creator (who is similar to us, but has holy divine nature) exists and therefore faith is all it takes to believe in him. This is the opposite of rationalism since it takes exploring the boundaries of the claim and at least showing evidence of why you believe he exists. To say you only have faith and nothing will change your mind is irrational.

Why is a theist himself making this? Well ever since I watch AronRa's video of Theism Is Not Rational, I have pondered on the idea. I find it interesting that faith is what it takes to believe in God, but people claim that is reasonable or is evidence alone. I came to the realization that while it may not be rational to believe, the believers themselves can be rational. How so? Well they can't be rational about their religion, just the other stuff.

You can look at a window and use logic and reason to determine that sunlight can come through and brighten the house up if your window is transparent and see through. It's even more logical if you find out the specifics behind the design of the window. This doesn't require a belief in God.

If somebody were to answer the question, What is it that keeps the nucleus in balance? Some people will use logical scientific answers, but theists like Bryan Fischer will say that the only real answer is God. This is not rational and is the sign that a white flag for knowledge has been shown.

Can we solve this problem? If we learn to be more open and reasonable to the secular world, then a theist of any religion can learn to acquire that not all of the things that are deemed bad by it's culture are as bad as they'd imagine.



It is the only true logic and rationality.
Steph24
Posts: 1
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11/4/2014 11:52:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/2/2014 6:47:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
No.

Theism is not logical or rational and for a good reason. It is to automatically make the assumption that a God or creator (who is similar to us, but has holy divine nature) exists and therefore faith is all it takes to believe in him. This is the opposite of rationalism since it takes exploring the boundaries of the claim and at least showing evidence of why you believe he exists. To say you only have faith and nothing will change your mind is irrational.

Why is a theist himself making this? Well ever since I watch AronRa's video of Theism Is Not Rational, I have pondered on the idea. I find it interesting that faith is what it takes to believe in God, but people claim that is reasonable or is evidence alone. I came to the realization that while it may not be rational to believe, the believers themselves can be rational. How so? Well they can't be rational about their religion, just the other stuff.

You can look at a window and use logic and reason to determine that sunlight can come through and brighten the house up if your window is transparent and see through. It's even more logical if you find out the specifics behind the design of the window. This doesn't require a belief in God.

If somebody were to answer the question, What is it that keeps the nucleus in balance? Some people will use logical scientific answers, but theists like Bryan Fischer will say that the only real answer is God. This is not rational and is the sign that a white flag for knowledge has been shown.

Can we solve this problem? If we learn to be more open and reasonable to the secular world, then a theist of any religion can learn to acquire that not all of the things that are deemed bad by it's culture are as bad as they'd imagine.



Hi, uhmm I'm 19, currently doing an investigation on the rationality of theism, and found this forum. My boyfriend is Agnostic, but I believe in God. He, just like you, points out that Theism is not Rational. But, I have done my homework and yesterday I found something interest called "The Flew Case of 2004" It's about world's famous Atheist Philosopher Antony Flew, from 15 to 80 years of age he was Atheist. On 2004, after many books saying that atheism was the only rational view, he changed his position...writing a book called "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." Flew explained how he found rationality in science. And a Creator behind it all....

What I'm trying to point out is... if Antony Flew, world's most notorious atheist, found rationality behind it all, then why believe there isn't?

My Boyfriend then pointed out that Atheist are logical and the Theist men is not. He said I had to read how much of an atheist was Nikola Tesla, and he mentioned a few more... turns out he was just misinformed.. Nikola Tesla too believed in a God, he once said "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible." This lead me to search other great minds.. I found out that even Albert Einstein believed in the existence of a supreme being , he was not a christian but he for sure was a theist. He even said: "There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

In conclusion, all of the men I said above, were inventors and somehow really important in the world. They were three of the world's most logical and rational men.. and one of them, Antony Flew, was a complete Atheist until he found the Rationality in Theism.

Does this make you believe in the rationality of Theism?
18Karl
Posts: 351
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11/4/2014 1:47:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 9:15:37 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Any thoughts or comments?

You have destroyed the mere basis of philosophical religion. Theism is often irrational, but can be made rational and logical + should be made rational and logical
praise the lord Chin Chin
18Karl
Posts: 351
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11/4/2014 1:51:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:52:52 AM, Steph24 wrote:
At 11/2/2014 6:47:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
No.

Theism is not logical or rational and for a good reason. It is to automatically make the assumption that a God or creator (who is similar to us, but has holy divine nature) exists and therefore faith is all it takes to believe in him. This is the opposite of rationalism since it takes exploring the boundaries of the claim and at least showing evidence of why you believe he exists. To say you only have faith and nothing will change your mind is irrational.

Why is a theist himself making this? Well ever since I watch AronRa's video of Theism Is Not Rational, I have pondered on the idea. I find it interesting that faith is what it takes to believe in God, but people claim that is reasonable or is evidence alone. I came to the realization that while it may not be rational to believe, the believers themselves can be rational. How so? Well they can't be rational about their religion, just the other stuff.

You can look at a window and use logic and reason to determine that sunlight can come through and brighten the house up if your window is transparent and see through. It's even more logical if you find out the specifics behind the design of the window. This doesn't require a belief in God.

If somebody were to answer the question, What is it that keeps the nucleus in balance? Some people will use logical scientific answers, but theists like Bryan Fischer will say that the only real answer is God. This is not rational and is the sign that a white flag for knowledge has been shown.

Can we solve this problem? If we learn to be more open and reasonable to the secular world, then a theist of any religion can learn to acquire that not all of the things that are deemed bad by it's culture are as bad as they'd imagine.




Hi, uhmm I'm 19, currently doing an investigation on the rationality of theism, and found this forum. My boyfriend is Agnostic, but I believe in God. He, just like you, points out that Theism is not Rational. But, I have done my homework and yesterday I found something interest called "The Flew Case of 2004" It's about world's famous Atheist Philosopher Antony Flew, from 15 to 80 years of age he was Atheist. On 2004, after many books saying that atheism was the only rational view, he changed his position...writing a book called "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." Flew explained how he found rationality in science. And a Creator behind it all....

What I'm trying to point out is... if Antony Flew, world's most notorious atheist, found rationality behind it all, then why believe there isn't?

My Boyfriend then pointed out that Atheist are logical and the Theist men is not. He said I had to read how much of an atheist was Nikola Tesla, and he mentioned a few more... turns out he was just misinformed.. Nikola Tesla too believed in a God, he once said "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible." This lead me to search other great minds.. I found out that even Albert Einstein believed in the existence of a supreme being , he was not a christian but he for sure was a theist. He even said: "There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

In conclusion, all of the men I said above, were inventors and somehow really important in the world. They were three of the world's most logical and rational men.. and one of them, Antony Flew, was a complete Atheist until he found the Rationality in Theism.

Does this make you believe in the rationality of Theism?

The fundamental premise of this debate is a fallacious one, as it assumes that since x did y, and x is a good guy, then y is a good action. Argument from genetics.
praise the lord Chin Chin
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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11/4/2014 2:03:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 10:44:10 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/2/2014 6:47:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
No.

Theism is not logical or rational and for a good reason. It is to automatically make the assumption that a God or creator (who is similar to us, but has holy divine nature) exists and therefore faith is all it takes to believe in him. This is the opposite of rationalism since it takes exploring the boundaries of the claim and at least showing evidence of why you believe he exists. To say you only have faith and nothing will change your mind is irrational.

Why is a theist himself making this? Well ever since I watch AronRa's video of Theism Is Not Rational, I have pondered on the idea. I find it interesting that faith is what it takes to believe in God, but people claim that is reasonable or is evidence alone. I came to the realization that while it may not be rational to believe, the believers themselves can be rational. How so? Well they can't be rational about their religion, just the other stuff.

You can look at a window and use logic and reason to determine that sunlight can come through and brighten the house up if your window is transparent and see through. It's even more logical if you find out the specifics behind the design of the window. This doesn't require a belief in God.

If somebody were to answer the question, What is it that keeps the nucleus in balance? Some people will use logical scientific answers, but theists like Bryan Fischer will say that the only real answer is God. This is not rational and is the sign that a white flag for knowledge has been shown.

Can we solve this problem? If we learn to be more open and reasonable to the secular world, then a theist of any religion can learn to acquire that not all of the things that are deemed bad by it's culture are as bad as they'd imagine.



It is the only true logic and rationality.

How so? I take it your a pressupositionalist?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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11/4/2014 2:12:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:52:52 AM, Steph24 wrote:
At 11/2/2014 6:47:44 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
No.

Theism is not logical or rational and for a good reason. It is to automatically make the assumption that a God or creator (who is similar to us, but has holy divine nature) exists and therefore faith is all it takes to believe in him. This is the opposite of rationalism since it takes exploring the boundaries of the claim and at least showing evidence of why you believe he exists. To say you only have faith and nothing will change your mind is irrational.

Why is a theist himself making this? Well ever since I watch AronRa's video of Theism Is Not Rational, I have pondered on the idea. I find it interesting that faith is what it takes to believe in God, but people claim that is reasonable or is evidence alone. I came to the realization that while it may not be rational to believe, the believers themselves can be rational. How so? Well they can't be rational about their religion, just the other stuff.

You can look at a window and use logic and reason to determine that sunlight can come through and brighten the house up if your window is transparent and see through. It's even more logical if you find out the specifics behind the design of the window. This doesn't require a belief in God.

If somebody were to answer the question, What is it that keeps the nucleus in balance? Some people will use logical scientific answers, but theists like Bryan Fischer will say that the only real answer is God. This is not rational and is the sign that a white flag for knowledge has been shown.

Can we solve this problem? If we learn to be more open and reasonable to the secular world, then a theist of any religion can learn to acquire that not all of the things that are deemed bad by it's culture are as bad as they'd imagine.




Hi, uhmm I'm 19, currently doing an investigation on the rationality of theism, and found this forum. My boyfriend is Agnostic, but I believe in God. He, just like you, points out that Theism is not Rational. But, I have done my homework and yesterday I found something interest called "The Flew Case of 2004" It's about world's famous Atheist Philosopher Antony Flew, from 15 to 80 years of age he was Atheist. On 2004, after many books saying that atheism was the only rational view, he changed his position...writing a book called "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." Flew explained how he found rationality in science. And a Creator behind it all....

What I'm trying to point out is... if Antony Flew, world's most notorious atheist, found rationality behind it all, then why believe there isn't?

My Boyfriend then pointed out that Atheist are logical and the Theist men is not. He said I had to read how much of an atheist was Nikola Tesla, and he mentioned a few more... turns out he was just misinformed.. Nikola Tesla too believed in a God, he once said "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible." This lead me to search other great minds.. I found out that even Albert Einstein believed in the existence of a supreme being , he was not a christian but he for sure was a theist. He even said: "There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

In conclusion, all of the men I said above, were inventors and somehow really important in the world. They were three of the world's most logical and rational men.. and one of them, Antony Flew, was a complete Atheist until he found the Rationality in Theism.

Does this make you believe in the rationality of Theism?

Theism itself is not rational, but I never said the people weren't. Antony Flew was a deist, which is considered a religion of reason. It still however makes the claim of a creator God, while avoiding holy rules and divine ranks. Einstein pretty much believed in Spinoza's god, that a god would have to most likely be the universe, the laws of physics and so forth. Carl Sagan once mentioned this type of belief, but said he would find it silly to worship a bunch of laws like a deity.

If your boyfriend thinks theists can't be rational, then he hasn't seen TheNewCovenantGroup. It's an internet show with theists and people who identify themselves as agnostic. Agnostic Greg has a show called Inspiring Honesty while Christian shows on the program are The Palace and The Unconventional Pastor with Bob Greaves. They had guests like Sye Ten Bruggencate, Eric Hovind, Aronra, and so on. Just note that because somebody converted to a certain theistic belief, doesn't mean automatically, theism is rational. Sometimes, the reverse happens.

If you are a theist, but your boyfriend says theists aren't rational, then my advice is to talk to him. I feel like this would be an insult and burden if he consider you not rational. Have a talk with him, but don't attack him for being an agnostic. I have seen this tactic scare people away from God instead of drawing them in.
DanneJeRusse
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11/4/2014 7:39:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 7:30:30 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:42:51 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:15:37 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Any thoughts or comments?

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to discuss. It appears you have written a fair argument for why faith and reason are incompatible but then go on to state you are a theist despite this understanding. Are you just trying to state your conflicting thoughts to get others perspectives or were you positing something that I missed?

I am basically trying to get a conversation started about rationalism and theism. I am stating that while faith not be reasonable, people who faith can still be reasonable about other things. I cling to my faith because I want to.

That is certainly the crux of one of the many hypocrisies of religion.

The minute you begin to rationalize religions, fallacies and false premises dominate the landscape. There's no evidence, nothing to measure or gauge, nothing to rationalize. It's all pure speculation with no basis in reality. Why would anyone want to cling to that?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MEK
Posts: 253
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11/4/2014 9:59:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi, uhmm I'm 19, currently doing an investigation on the rationality of theism, and found this forum. My boyfriend is Agnostic, but I believe in God. He, just like you, points out that Theism is not Rational. But, I have done my homework and yesterday I found something interest called "The Flew Case of 2004" It's about world's famous Atheist Philosopher Antony Flew, from 15 to 80 years of age he was Atheist. On 2004, after many books saying that atheism was the only rational view, he changed his position...writing a book called "There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind." Flew explained how he found rationality in science. And a Creator behind it all....

What I'm trying to point out is... if Antony Flew, world's most notorious atheist, found rationality behind it all, then why believe there isn't?

My Boyfriend then pointed out that Atheist are logical and the Theist men is not. He said I had to read how much of an atheist was Nikola Tesla, and he mentioned a few more... turns out he was just misinformed.. Nikola Tesla too believed in a God, he once said "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible." This lead me to search other great minds.. I found out that even Albert Einstein believed in the existence of a supreme being , he was not a christian but he for sure was a theist. He even said: "There is harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, yet there are people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me to support such views."

In conclusion, all of the men I said above, were inventors and somehow really important in the world. They were three of the world's most logical and rational men.. and one of them, Antony Flew, was a complete Atheist until he found the Rationality in Theism.

Does this make you believe in the rationality of Theism?

Your boyfriend is making general statements with false correlations regarding atheists and being rational. Are atheists rational because they are atheists? No. Just because one does not believe in a supernatural entity in the universe does not necessarily mean he is rational. This is a logical fallacy of causation.

Secondly, when citing individuals who were atheists and then converted to some monotheistic belief does not give the idea of theism validity. This is just an argument form authority and is not an argument for the position of theism. And for the record, you are incorrect about Einstein's beliefs. He did not believe in a theistic god but is said to have stated there may have been a prime mover making him probably an agnostic.

Third, when you quote things like, "The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power." you have not made any progress in supporting your position of theism regardless who you are quoting. The burden of proof still lays in your lap in that you have to give reasonable evidence (the bible is not one of these) for the existence, not only of a supernatural being but that this being is divine and intervenes in our lives. Until you can do this - you are just pretending to know something that you cannot possibly know.
ChristianPunk
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11/4/2014 10:29:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 7:39:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/4/2014 7:30:30 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:42:51 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/3/2014 9:15:37 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Any thoughts or comments?

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to discuss. It appears you have written a fair argument for why faith and reason are incompatible but then go on to state you are a theist despite this understanding. Are you just trying to state your conflicting thoughts to get others perspectives or were you positing something that I missed?

I am basically trying to get a conversation started about rationalism and theism. I am stating that while faith not be reasonable, people who faith can still be reasonable about other things. I cling to my faith because I want to.

That is certainly the crux of one of the many hypocrisies of religion.

The minute you begin to rationalize religions, fallacies and false premises dominate the landscape. There's no evidence, nothing to measure or gauge, nothing to rationalize. It's all pure speculation with no basis in reality. Why would anyone want to cling to that?

Are you asking why I still cling to my religion?