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Wouldyou have failed Abraham's test?

popculturepooka
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11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Emilrose
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11/3/2014 12:11:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)

The point of the "test" is that it did not follow through. While Abram listened to G-d, an Angel appears and tells him to stay his hand--before promising him that his seed shall increase.

This in fact shows that G-d never actually intended for Issac to be killed. As stated, it was a test of Abram's devotion towards G-d.
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mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/3/2014 12:20:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:11:55 PM, Emilrose wrote:
Stuff...

The question was would you have failed/passed the test.

Would you have tied your child down and set about the process of sacrificing him/her to God.. With the intent of murdering your child.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/3/2014 12:24:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:20:53 PM, mortsdor wrote:
With the intent of murdering your child.

And yes, I know you said it wasn't God's intent to have abraham murder his child...

I implied that it was Abraham's intent. That is he tied his son down with the intent of slitting his throat.

In this way he passed.

The question was whether or not you would have willingly began the actions of sacrificing Your child, Intending to Slit his/her throat because that's what you think god wants.
popculturepooka
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11/3/2014 12:25:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:11:55 PM, Emilrose wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)

The point of the "test" is that it did not follow through. While Abram listened to G-d, an Angel appears and tells him to stay his hand--before promising him that his seed shall increase.

This in fact shows that G-d never actually intended for Issac to be killed. As stated, it was a test of Abram's devotion towards G-d.

This doesn't answer my question...would YOU have done so?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Emilrose
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11/3/2014 12:26:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:20:53 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:11:55 PM, Emilrose wrote:
Stuff...

The question was would you have failed/passed the test.

Would you have tied your child down and set about the process of sacrificing him/her to God.. With the intent of murdering your child.

I can see perfectly well what the question is--what I'm stating is that before anything context and eventual outcome (I.E Issac surviving) is what should be considered.

Moreover, such a "command" was exclusive to Abram; not me or any other theists out there.
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
popculturepooka
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11/3/2014 12:26:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:24:51 PM, mortsdor wrote:

The question was whether or not you would have willingly began the actions of sacrificing Your child, Intending to Slit his/her throat because that's what you think god wants.

this.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
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11/3/2014 12:30:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:26:14 PM, Emilrose wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:20:53 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:11:55 PM, Emilrose wrote:
Stuff...

The question was would you have failed/passed the test.

Would you have tied your child down and set about the process of sacrificing him/her to God.. With the intent of murdering your child.

I can see perfectly well what the question is--what I'm stating is that before anything context and eventual outcome (I.E Issac surviving) is what should be considered.

Moreover, such a "command" was exclusive to Abram; not me or any other theists out there.

Pretend you were/are Abram - would YOU have done what he did?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/3/2014 12:42:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And sorry that I'm probably discouraging theist from posting responses, but this is kind of a favorite topic of mine... :/

At 11/3/2014 12:30:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Pretend you were/are Abram - would YOU have done what he did?

oh, but that we all could be as strong and righteous as Abraham!

I suppose many will aspire to such devotion, but think themselves too faint-hearted, and too tied to this ephemeral world to carry such a thing out.

Saint Augustine the hippopotamus would probably do it though....
as well as all the other truly nihilistic self-despisers and world-haters that scramble at the chance to replace themselves and the world with:
"God" and "His Will"
RoderickSpode
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11/3/2014 12:44:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)
I think I would have failed.
mortsdor
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11/3/2014 12:52:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:44:50 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
I think I would have failed.

Why would you have failed?

Would it be better to pass?
God thought it was better that Abraham passed right?
RoderickSpode
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11/3/2014 12:57:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:52:25 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:44:50 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
I think I would have failed.

Why would you have failed?

Would it be better to pass?
God thought it was better that Abraham passed right?
I'm speculating that I would have failed, but obviously from the given scenario, it would have been better to pass.

What's notable is that like the scenario with Japheth's daughter, Isaac was willing to be sacrificed. So there's is a possibility that the willingness of sacrificed may have influenced my decision.
popculturepooka
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11/3/2014 1:00:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:44:50 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)
I think I would have failed.

Do you think that would be a moral failing on your part?

Thank you for answering, btw.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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11/3/2014 1:17:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The moral failure shows in everyone who actually swallows the Orwellian Double-Think that offering to murder your own son to appease an invisible Voice of God constitutes "Righteousness". In any sane society, such behavior is appropriately labeled "criminal insanity" and severe child abuse and the perps of such are locked up for many years. Whereas Abrahamic believers, never questioning their Bible ethics, fail to see the horror story behind the tale of the Vedic god, Brahma taken by ancient Hebrews to be reworked into the stories of "Abraham" and Sara, (Sarasvati in the Vedic original as Brahma's consort, with Ghaggar, the main tributary to the the Sarasvati River becoming "Hagar" the handmaiden of Sarah in the Hebrew makeover. And all Abrahamic religionists are told this is "Hebrew history" and that they should emulate a man who would be thrown in prison today.

Here is my Gift to Humanity re Abrahamic religious evil instructions. The Abrahamic Emancipation Proclamation at; http://biomystic.org...
mortsdor
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11/4/2014 6:12:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)

wondering where this was going ? o.O
RoderickSpode
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11/4/2014 7:58:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 1:00:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:44:50 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)
I think I would have failed.

Do you think that would be a moral failing on your part?

I think it would be a moral failing, but not in the traditional or standard sense of what the Bible generally speaks of when referring to morality. It's understood in the passage that it's a staggering request. The request is not the typical command to obey standard law of morality (forgive trespasses, help those in need, etc.). The reluctance to sacrifice a son involves love and compassion.

The Bible does indicate that God doesn't place anyone in a situation they can't handle, and I think even in Abraham's test he was given a certain amount of foresight that lead him to believe that Isaac would somehow come out alive in the end. There was the promise of descendents which would have been impossible from Isaac if he were dead. And Abraham did tell his servant that both Isaac and himself would return. It also appears that Isaac must have been willing in the end because it's unlikely that Abraham could have bound an unwilling man of Isaac's age. I personally don't think God would have put Abraham through a test of having to see his son crying for mercy, and/or having to commit an act of violence just to get an unwilling party in that sacrificial position. I think adding up God's promises in his mind (I think he did a lot thinking during those moments), plus observing a willing son, gave him a certain amount of divine strength.

I still have a hard time with the idea that I could carry that out, thus it's quite possible I would still fail. To not fail would require a lot of divine intervention similar to what Abraham experienced.

But back to your question about a moral failure, I say it would be because it's never immoral to obey God's command, thus any command denied would be immoral. But...I wouldn't put that type of failure in the same league as moral failings that result in obvious severe judgments like, say, King David experienced at times.

Thank you for answering, btw.
It's a very good question, and not an easy one to answer.
bornofgod
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11/4/2014 8:12:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)

If theists actually knew God, they would listen to His voice and obey ALL His commandments. It's impossible not to obey Him once you know Him and who you are in Him.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/4/2014 8:16:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 7:58:29 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
I think even in Abraham's test he was given a certain amount of foresight that lead him to believe that Isaac would somehow come out alive in the end.

That kind of takes the point out of the test doesn't it?

God says: You must carry out actions to kill your son (but also grants him assurances through insight that he won't really have to kill his son)

Abraham begins carrying out the actions that were commanded, knowing he won't really have to kill his son... And, then.. surprise surprise, he doesn't have to really kill his son.

if anything that counts as nothing more than a petty Ritual to pronounce Abraham's complete self-denial and embrace of god's will...

It would hardly show that Abraham Actually Does deny his own will to such an extent..
That would require Abraham to believe God's will truly was for Abraham to slaughter his son, and for Abraham to pursue God's will at the expense of what would be his own.
mortsdor
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11/4/2014 8:23:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 8:16:12 AM, mortsdor wrote:
if anything that counts as nothing more than a petty Ritual to pronounce Abraham's complete self-denial and embrace of god's will...

So, the extent to which Abraham believed that God didn't really will Abraham to slaughter his son.. is the extent to which this mock killing was not really any kind of real 'Test'... just a outward show of subservience.
popculturepooka
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11/4/2014 9:12:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 6:12:28 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)

wondering where this was going ? o.O

I was hoping for more responses but I'll reveal later today.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,386
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11/4/2014 10:42:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 8:16:12 AM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/4/2014 7:58:29 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
I think even in Abraham's test he was given a certain amount of foresight that lead him to believe that Isaac would somehow come out alive in the end.

That kind of takes the point out of the test doesn't it?

God says: You must carry out actions to kill your son (but also grants him assurances through insight that he won't really have to kill his son)

Abraham begins carrying out the actions that were commanded, knowing he won't really have to kill his son... And, then.. surprise surprise, he doesn't have to really kill his son.

if anything that counts as nothing more than a petty Ritual to pronounce Abraham's complete self-denial and embrace of god's will...

It would hardly show that Abraham Actually Does deny his own will to such an extent..
That would require Abraham to believe God's will truly was for Abraham to slaughter his son, and for Abraham to pursue God's will at the expense of what would be his own.
God's will apparently was for Abraham to believe the promise that a nation would come forth through Isaac's seed. The point of the narrative was to focus on the faith of Abraham. The focus of that faith is based on belief in the promise. Whether one believes the test is petty or not doesn't remove the spotlight on Abraham's faith in the initial promise God gave to him.

I think you're viewing the test as merely accepting a death of a son, and being the one to bring it about simply because God commands it.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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11/5/2014 11:42:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would have passed.
I would have told him to go fuc himself.
The neighbours dog is always telling me to do things.
missmedic
Posts: 390
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11/5/2014 11:50:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
YES, as it makes no sense, god knows all (omniscient) and any outcome before hand . So how is it a test? It's like the garden of Eden, god put all the condition in place so A&E would fail and he could assign them guilt, shame, fear and sin. It is no test when god knows the out come. Faith is not a virtue.
Many people do simply awful things out of sincere religious belief, because they believe that this is what God wants them to do, going all the way back to Abraham being willing to sacrifice Issac because God told him to. Putting God ahead of humanity is a terrible thing.
bulproof
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11/5/2014 11:57:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Was David Berkowitz a modern day equivolent to Abraham?
A voice in the head telling him to kill?

BTW how did the author of genesis know what was being said in Abraham's head?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/5/2014 11:59:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 12:26:14 PM, Emilrose wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:20:53 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/3/2014 12:11:55 PM, Emilrose wrote:
Stuff...

The question was would you have failed/passed the test.

Would you have tied your child down and set about the process of sacrificing him/her to God.. With the intent of murdering your child.

I can see perfectly well what the question is--what I'm stating is that before anything context and eventual outcome (I.E Issac surviving) is what should be considered.

Moreover, such a "command" was exclusive to Abram; not me or any other theists out there.

What should be considered is that you wouldn't know God would stop you just before you killed your child. So would you have undertaken the preparation with the intent of killing your child, or wouldn't you?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
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11/6/2014 12:43:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/3/2014 11:35:48 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I have a question for the Abrahamic theists here: would you have failed Abraham's test to sacrifice his son? I.e. Tie him down to a rock. Gather kindling. Prepare to slit his throat and set him on fire.

I have somewhere I'm going with this but I'll reveal that later. :)

Failed. Not even started to make the efforts of killing my kid.

I would much rather sever my ties with such an entity than keep relations to one that requires me to kill my child to demonstrate how lowly I am and how glorious He is.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
jodybirdy
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11/6/2014 3:21:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I wouldn't even take the test.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Juan_Pablo
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11/6/2014 3:40:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The only conversation this mentally messed-up God should be having with anyone is how to improve the situation of humanity; encouraging anyone to sacrifice humans or animals for his pathetic behalf is disgusting and, in the end I think, ineffectual!

There is right way of doing things and a wrong way of doing things and following through with God's pathetic, homicidal orders is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!

Let him watch while his disobedient children build a fantastic world without him!