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"Creator" God

mattrodstrom
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4/27/2010 9:34:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why would God "create".

Before creation = God (Absolute, Complete and utter, perfection)

After creation = God + Hell + Dead Babies + etc. etc.

Why would he choose to pollute existence with things that are non-perfect.

Why not just leave it at complete perfection.

.....

The only thing I can think of is that he's NECESSARILY a "creator"... Those unsavory aspects of "creation" are necessary aspects of "perfection"... That is God is not God (he's not perfect) without "creating"... the creation is a necessary part of 'Perfection'.

.....

Ideas stolen from: Avicenna; copyright (somewhere round) 1100 AD

(disclaimer: I don't actually believe in god.. just talkin bout the concept)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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4/27/2010 9:48:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
God created man in His own image. We were perfect but after Adam's disobedience sin corrupted our nature.
Then God sent His only son to save us so that whosoever believes in His son might have eternal life and they should not perish.
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 10:13:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 9:34:16 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Why not just leave it at complete perfection.

He's was probably just bored. The same argument could be applied to "Why buy a dog" Before the dog there was no crap, no barking at random animals, no fear of the vacuum cleaner. Afterward there was all those things so why have a dog?

Because dogs are cool and God was like I want me some of them humans so he made them. I mean a dog that doesn't bark at random crap, afraid of the vacuum cleaner, pooping all over the place just isn't a dog.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/27/2010 10:45:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 9:48:34 AM, lastrequest691 wrote:
God created man in His own image. We were perfect but after Adam's disobedience sin corrupted our nature.
Then God sent His only son to save us so that whosoever believes in His son might have eternal life and they should not perish.

So... many... flaws...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/27/2010 11:27:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
you can not have perfection without giving your creation free will. you can not have free will without the existance of the possibility of choosing to go against what is perfect.

I dont know about you but I am having a great time existing; I am quite glad he didnt just leave us to not exist. as far as all the flaws we have brought upon ourselves dont sweat it Gods got a plan and we can overcome what makes unperfect in the end. that unperfect thing is sin, and Jesus died for you so that you do not have to be enslaved to it no more. Today can be the day you choose to go back to perfect relationship with god, to have peace between you and him. and until christ return you can spend the rest of time in your new relationship with god bringing more people to this perfect relationship.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/27/2010 11:44:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 9:48:34 AM, lastrequest691 wrote:
God created man in His own image. We were perfect but after Adam's disobedience sin corrupted our nature.

FAIL. If Adam was perfect, then how could he commit an imperfect sin. Also, his action is not something I consider a sin, nor do I think that is serious enough to be a just cause of all the destruction and suffering that has occurred.

In my book, Adam and Eve were brave for standing up against a powerful tyrant. Their act of disobedience should be rewarded and a symbol of freedom.

Then God sent His only son to save us

Save who? Millions of people suffer and die everyday. Where's your Savior now? He's not saving anybody.

so that whosoever believes in His son might have eternal life and they should not perish.

A very cruel and immoral requirement to avoid perishing. Believe just in me, and if you don't like it, you can burn and suffer for eternity. Essentially, you're threatened by force to accept his savior. How noble!
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 11:48:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 10:13:50 AM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 9:34:16 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Why not just leave it at complete perfection.

He's was probably just bored. The same argument could be applied to "Why buy a dog" Before the dog there was no crap, no barking at random animals, no fear of the vacuum cleaner. Afterward there was all those things so why have a dog?

Because dogs are cool and God was like I want me some of them humans so he made them. I mean a dog that doesn't bark at random crap, afraid of the vacuum cleaner, pooping all over the place just isn't a dog.

No one can beat the dog analogy.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/27/2010 12:54:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 11:48:15 AM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 10:13:50 AM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 9:34:16 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Why not just leave it at complete perfection.

He's was probably just bored. The same argument could be applied to "Why buy a dog" Before the dog there was no crap, no barking at random animals, no fear of the vacuum cleaner. Afterward there was all those things so why have a dog?

Because dogs are cool and God was like I want me some of them humans so he made them. I mean a dog that doesn't bark at random crap, afraid of the vacuum cleaner, pooping all over the place just isn't a dog.

No one can beat the dog analogy.

You're right dogs are cool.

But if they're so cool then they'd necessarily be part of a perfect existence...

THUS: NECESSARILY a part of "God"(perfection) in the first place.

so god didn't "create" dogs... dogs are a necessary part of perfection (god)..

as, of course, is evinced by dog = god backwards
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 12:57:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 12:54:01 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
You're right dogs are cool.

But if they're so cool then they'd necessarily be part of a perfect existence...

THUS: NECESSARILY a part of "God"(perfection) in the first place.

so god didn't "create" dogs... dogs are a necessary part of perfection (god)..

as, of course, is evinced by dog = god backwards

10/10 for this beauty.

But seriously though. My point was that imperfections can make something perfect. I wouldn't want a perfect dog, that'd be unbelievably boring. I want a dog that does stupid things.
mattrodstrom
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4/27/2010 1:14:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 12:57:38 PM, tmoney225 wrote:
....

so dogs... people... etc....

all go into "perfection"...

so God/perfection didn't "create"... but rather all of "creation" is really just a necessary feature of "perfection".
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 1:15:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:14:29 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/27/2010 12:57:38 PM, tmoney225 wrote:
....

so dogs... people... etc....

all go into "perfection"...

so God/perfection didn't "create"... but rather all of "creation" is really just a necessary feature of "perfection".

lol wat
mattrodstrom
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4/27/2010 1:28:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
tmoney...

Your saying the "imperfections" of the dog make it perfect.

so it wouldn't be perfect otherwise.

so why are there people???... b/c existence wouldn't be perfect otherwise.

so would there be perfection without people... dogs... dead babies???

no. Those things necessarily go into "perfection" even if they can be a bit unsavory.

For if they didn't... why would God "create" them... why would God pollute existence with uneccessary "imperfect" (partially EVIL, if you will) things.

If those things weren't necessarily part of "Perfection" why would God allow them to exist?

There is no good reason.

And there's no good reason to believe in such a "creator" God... the very notion makes makes no sense.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/27/2010 1:31:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
someone said Adam and Eve were "perfect" prior to sin.

to you I say: "BLASPHEMER!"

God = perfection... not man

man =/= god :. man ("with" or "without" sin) =/= perfection

God couldn't consider a life of sin... Adam/Eve could... A&E =/= perfect
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/27/2010 1:34:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:31:58 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
someone said Adam and Eve were "perfect" prior to sin.

to you I say: "BLASPHEMER!"

God = perfection... not man

man =/= god :. man ("with" or "without" sin) =/= perfection

God couldn't consider a life of sin... Adam/Eve could... A&E =/= perfect

they were perfect for what they were. perfect in relationship with the divine.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/27/2010 1:34:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 10:13:50 AM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 9:34:16 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Why not just leave it at complete perfection.

He's was probably just bored
A perfect God does not get bored.
Because dogs are cool and God was like I want me some of them humans
A perfect God does not want or need.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 1:36:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:28:43 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

You seem to be confused about the definition of perfection. You're assuming there is only one scenario where perfection can be met. This is incorrect.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/27/2010 1:38:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:34:01 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 4/27/2010 1:31:58 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
someone said Adam and Eve were "perfect" prior to sin.

to you I say: "BLASPHEMER!"

God = perfection... not man

man =/= god :. man ("with" or "without" sin) =/= perfection

God couldn't consider a life of sin... Adam/Eve could... A&E =/= perfect

they were perfect for what they were. perfect in relationship with the divine.

so their existence is part of "perfection"... their existence is a necessary part of God (who is "perfection")

so God/perfection didn't create them... they are literally a part of the whole that is "perfection".
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 1:39:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:34:52 PM, wjmelements wrote:
He's was probably just bored
A perfect God does not get bored.

Lol just because you're perfect doesn't mean you don't get bored. God made us in his image, as we have emotions such as loneliness, boredom, so does god.

He even needs to chill sometimes. Day Phase 7 after making a bunch of crap God chilled for a day.

Because dogs are cool and God was like I want me some of them humans
A perfect God does not want or need.

This is incorrect. Just because you are perfect doesn't mean there aren't things you need. God wants everyone to go to heaven. Does this in and of itself refute the fact that he's perfect? No. Wanting and needing is a precursor to action. God wanted humans so he made some humans.
mattrodstrom
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4/27/2010 1:39:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:36:14 PM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 1:28:43 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

You seem to be confused about the definition of perfection. You're assuming there is only one scenario where perfection can be met. This is incorrect.

GOD = ABSOLUTE PERFECTION... MOST PERFECT

why would he pollute existence with any other supposed kind of perfection?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/27/2010 1:43:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:34:52 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 4/27/2010 10:13:50 AM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 9:34:16 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Why not just leave it at complete perfection.

He's was probably just bored
A perfect God does not get bored.
Because dogs are cool and God was like I want me some of them humans
A perfect God does not want or need.

you call yourself a christian...

do you believe God to be a "creator"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tmoney225
Posts: 168
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4/27/2010 1:43:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:39:53 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
GOD = ABSOLUTE PERFECTION... MOST PERFECT


why would he pollute existence with any other supposed kind of perfection?

I told you probably because he was bored. I mean what else was he going to do? Just because he himself is perfect doesn't mean that he wants to surround himself with perfect beings without imperfections.
mattrodstrom
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4/27/2010 1:50:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:43:52 PM, tmoney225 wrote:
At 4/27/2010 1:39:53 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
GOD = ABSOLUTE PERFECTION... MOST PERFECT


why would he pollute existence with any other supposed kind of perfection?

I told you probably because he was bored. I mean what else was he going to do? Just because he himself is perfect doesn't mean that he wants to surround himself with perfect beings without imperfections.

so god introduced dead babies into existence for fun??

sick dude.. not my Idea of Perfection personified.

You seem to suggest that non-perfection is something Fun or entertaining...

I guess God gets kicks out of tormenting "evil"/Ungodly/imperfect souls???

again... doesn't make too much sense for Perfection personified to take delight in such diversions...

"Perfection" suggests that in it all is right... so why would god "create" imperfection.... /corrupt the "rightness" that was a perfect existence?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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4/27/2010 1:51:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
God = perfectX
Man (with/without sin) =/= God
Man (with/without sin) =/= perfectX
Man (without sin) = perfectY
perfectX > perfectY
Man (with sin) =/= perfectY

God is always > than perfectY
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
mattrodstrom
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4/27/2010 1:58:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:51:16 PM, Marauder wrote:
God is always > than perfect **man**

sure. so why would god corrupt a perfect existence with shittier, false, perfections such as man.

GOD = PERFECTION

Man = imperfect

"Perfect" Man =/= PERFECTION

"Perfect "Man = potential sinner

"Perfect" Man = weakling

"Perfect" Man = One with Vices

"Perfect" Man =/= God

so why would GOD corrupt an utterly PERFECT existence with, so called, "Perfect" Man

why would he corrupt PERFECTION with the Imperfection that is "Perfect" Man
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/27/2010 2:00:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
So tmoney believes that his perfect God created dead babies, holocausts, mutilated bodies, mass genocide, and destruction, simply for his own entertainment.

Wonderful. That's not a God that anyone should worship. (In fact, no one should worship anything.)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/27/2010 2:13:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 2:00:38 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So tmoney believes that his perfect God created dead babies, holocausts, mutilated bodies, mass genocide, and destruction, simply for his own entertainment.

I'd say he believes God created the potential for those things....

granted, Potential which HE, in his infinite wisdom, KNEW would be realized...

pretty nonsensical move on God's part, that one...

For even the Good bits of Man are but shallow imitations of God's Goodness... and couldn't possibly increase the Good in an already Utterly PERFECT existence.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/27/2010 2:16:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 2:13:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/27/2010 2:00:38 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So tmoney believes that his perfect God created dead babies, holocausts, mutilated bodies, mass genocide, and destruction, simply for his own entertainment.


I'd say he believes God created the potential for those things....

granted, Potential which HE, in his infinite wisdom, KNEW would be realized...

pretty nonsensical move on God's part, that one...

For even the Good bits of Man are but shallow imitations of God's Goodness... and couldn't possibly increase the Good in an already Utterly PERFECT existence.

so being that he wasn't "Upping" the amount of "the good" in existence he was really only introducing dead babies... holocausts.. and whatnot.

doesn't make sense for an All Good/Perfect god to do that now does it???....
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Marauder
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4/28/2010 11:45:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/27/2010 1:58:43 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/27/2010 1:51:16 PM, Marauder wrote:
God is always > than perfect **man**

sure. so why would god corrupt a perfect existence with shittier, false, perfections such as man.

GOD = PERFECTION

Man = imperfect

"Perfect" Man =/= PERFECTION

"Perfect "Man = potential sinner

"Perfect" Man = weakling

"Perfect" Man = One with Vices

"Perfect" Man =/= God

so why would GOD corrupt an utterly PERFECT existence with, so called, "Perfect" Man

why would he corrupt PERFECTION with the Imperfection that is "Perfect" Man

man not having the potential to be God does not make man imperfect. Incedently it would be pretty stupid for God to make another 'God' that can be as perfect as himself apart from himself. If you were god would you changed the status quo so that your not the only alpha dog in existance? No cause that would be very stupid, you should only create things that cant harm you if it can at all be helped.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.