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Quranic challenge to jews and christians

POPOO5560
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11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
the Quran claims in several verses that the original scriptures of David (pbuh) - Psalms Moses (pbuh) - Torah and of Jesus (pbuh)- the Gospel were corrupted and we cant trust them of what we have today, so my challenge here to jews and christains is why not consider what it claims? if you want to prove Quran is wrong here you go prove the bible is intact, if you do that, we muslims will have no hesitation to become christains of jews because we also believe in the same prophets and we believe in the originals messages of the prophets. but the problem is almost all scholars (except fundamentalists) say it corrupted.. here some the verses:

Quran:
7:162
But the transgressors among them changed the word from that which had been given them so we sent on them a plague from heaven. For that they repeatedly transgressed.

5:13-14
But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

4:48
Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few

6:91
No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

2:75,79
Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it" Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

3:187
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.

5:15
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

2:159
Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse

2:174
Indeed, they who conceal what Allah has sent down of the Book and exchange it for a small price - those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment.

hadith:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136) (Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 12)

Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.
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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/4/2014 3:03:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If the religious needed proof o anything or cared about proof of anything they wouldn't be religious. Saying the bible is corrupt and that the Koran is not are both unfalsifiable statements.
12_13
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11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.
POPOO5560
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11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it. But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews, we must become part of you becuase we believe in the same prophets you wouldnt be religious conflict (atleast for half of earth population) so literally its a gift for you...
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POPOO5560
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11/4/2014 4:15:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 3:03:17 PM, Wylted wrote:
If the religious needed proof o anything or cared about proof of anything they wouldn't be religious. Saying the bible is corrupt and that the Koran is not are both unfalsifiable statements.

We have westren scholars confirming Quran preservation (othmanic), for the bible what we have ? unanimous agreement about Bible corruption.
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Wylted
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11/4/2014 4:18:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:15:19 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:03:17 PM, Wylted wrote:
If the religious needed proof o anything or cared about proof of anything they wouldn't be religious. Saying the bible is corrupt and that the Koran is not are both unfalsifiable statements.

We have westren scholars confirming Quran preservation (othmanic), for the bible what we have ? unanimous agreement about Bible corruption.

Most dik is also uncorrupted. It's words are the same as when written. Does that alter your religious beliefs?
POPOO5560
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11/4/2014 4:56:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:18:51 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/4/2014 4:15:19 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:03:17 PM, Wylted wrote:
If the religious needed proof o anything or cared about proof of anything they wouldn't be religious. Saying the bible is corrupt and that the Koran is not are both unfalsifiable statements.

We have westren scholars confirming Quran preservation (othmanic), for the bible what we have ? unanimous agreement about Bible corruption.

Most dik is also uncorrupted. It's words are the same as when written. Does that alter your religious beliefs?

Lol im not saying it proves that the Quran is the word of God, simply saying in simple language before you believe in something check its original or doesnt contain any changes whether its religious or secular stuff. Would you read newspaper that someone changed its content? Its not reliable. any more.
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DPMartin
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11/4/2014 5:18:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Question, why is Mecca the center of Islam? Didn"t Mohammad find his god in the collection of gods in that building back in his day? I maybe miss informed but I do believe that"s how it started correct?

Anyway, most Christians have no real reason to disprove anyone's belief. Most that don"t believe as Christians do are usually trying to disprove the Christian belief. So most if they give any time to it spend their efforts explaining their faith as best they can, and not always to the asker"s satisfaction.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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11/4/2014 7:42:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it. But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews,

You can't even solve the wars between Muslims and Muslims. Clean up your backyard first, then we'll talk.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
jh1234lnew
Posts: 225
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11/4/2014 8:51:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

The problem is that you are shifting the burden of proof: you are asking us to prove a negative: to prove that your claim, that the Bible was corrupted, was wrong.

Anyways, we can see the older manuscripts of the Bible in historical records, as well as older copies of the Bible dating to 50 CE dug up from the ground. This allows us to see if the Bible was changed over the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
POPOO5560
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11/4/2014 11:55:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 5:18:53 PM, DPMartin wrote:
Question, why is Mecca the center of Islam? Didn"t Mohammad find his god in the collection of gods in that building back in his day? I maybe miss informed but I do believe that"s how it started correct?

Anyway, most Christians have no real reason to disprove anyone's belief. Most that don"t believe as Christians do are usually trying to disprove the Christian belief. So most if they give any time to it spend their efforts explaining their faith as best they can, and not always to the asker"s satisfaction.

Im not attacking christainy or judaism, my simple goal is to answer why people believe in something corrupted anyway? and if they think its not corrupted and can prove it (for their own benefit to ensure their faith), they will gain all muslims in a second that is what the muslim what the originals... if cant prove it, he loses evidence for his faith first and foremost wasting his time on things. logic tells me first you must have it intact if not, its wasting time. you disagree with this?

about the question, Mohhamed (pbuh) never found God "Allah" in mecca, its only the name for God in Arabic, if you open the Arabic Bible all the places where the word "God" are replaced with the word "Allah". its only in another langauge.
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POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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11/4/2014 11:55:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 7:42:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it. But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews,

You can't even solve the wars between Muslims and Muslims. Clean up your backyard first, then we'll talk.

hhhh well if you prove the Bible is intact, it would solve this one too :D
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POPOO5560
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11/5/2014 12:11:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 8:51:28 PM, jh1234lnew wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

The problem is that you are shifting the burden of proof: you are asking us to prove a negative: to prove that your claim, that the Bible was corrupted, was wrong.

i have nothing to prove becuase your christain scholars (non christians too) telling me that, so why i should go out of my way to prove something which the christains themselves telling me?


Anyways, we can see the older manuscripts of the Bible in historical records, as well as older copies of the Bible dating to 50 CE dug up from the ground. This allows us to see if the Bible was changed over the years.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

how 50 CE, the oldest manuscript is actually a parchment P52 like size of a little card dating from 125 CE. in the link you shared, it shows you the dates of the manuscripts. you have there 5800 manuscripts and only 6% are before 9th century, so 94% of the 5800 Greek manuscripts are after 9th century 800 years after Jesus's death. and the problem is the more you go to search in early manuscripts, the more differences you find (Bart Ehrman)... here Bart explains - https://www.youtube.com...
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,245
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11/5/2014 1:04:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is an interesting topic and one that I've been wondering about but haven't done much research into. Let me say I don't personally assert any type of truth value into any of the following, nor am I religious or a theist in any conventional sense. So most of this is just me stating the traditional view for the sake of trying to understanding your (The OP) perspective and wanting to know how it relates to the traditional Jewish perspective.

So I want to ask just a couple basic questions as they relate specifically to the Torah. What specifically has been corrupted? What did it say before it was corrupted? and what does it say now?

Jewish tradition believes that the Torah is completely uncorrupted (naturally they'd believe this). Part of the reason for this is because, for a Torah scroll (the written text which has to be written in a specific way, on specific material etc, and by an expert in writing them - and those are the texts used for official purposes) to be kosher (in the literal sense of "ok and valid" - not the terminology of ok to eat) it has to be 100% perfect. The rules regarding this are stringent enough that if even one letter (of the 304,805) of the scroll has become distorted or faded, the entire scroll is un-kosher. This type of stringency that we can assume for the sake of this goes back to antiquity (and by tradition since the very first one was provided through transmission by god) means that while many of the extremely expensive torah scrolls through the generations have had to be disposed of for not being 100% proper, it's meant that every single one of them in existence, since day one, is exactly identical.

Because of this stringency in the process of writing them, maintaining them, and being sure they are 100% accurate, (writing Torah scrolls is itself its own profession even) this would seem to make it unlikely that at any point during their transmission from day one ("Day one" is an arguable point itself being that there isn't a legitimate primary source I'd care to argue - though this topic assumes divinity anyway so we can ignore that) up to today, that "corruption" would go unnoticed. How so is it that this corruption, as asserted by the OP, and I understand Islam in general, backs up this assertion given this method of generational textual transmission?

If we can ignore the above and say that it's not the text itself that has been corrupted, and instead say that it's the "oral law", (which was provided along side this written version in traditional understanding) then isn't it incumbent upon one who is saying it is corrupted to provide an example of this? If so, what in particular has been corrupted? If not, what value is there in knowing that something was corrupted?

Or rather, is saying that any part of the oral law (or any part of the written law) is corrupted a wholesale way to delegitimize the entire belief system? In other words, is even a minor aspect of a religions source material being misunderstood/corrupted/changed, being posited as a foundational perversion reaching throughout the entire religious system?

From looking at some of the verses you cited it doesn't seem to actually say that something was changed/corrupted, rather that individuals themselves are corrupt and ignoring/changing important aspects. Is this a proper interpretation? or does it mean specific things god intended to be written/understood in text/orally are no longer present in the religious doctrine?

To conclude I'll ask the following: is there something specific that was changed/corrupted significantly enough that has resulted in a situation that Jews (and Christians per an alternate line of arguments) are following a completely ungodly and unintended (unintended by god) version of their religion? Are there any examples of this?
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airmax1227
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11/5/2014 1:24:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it.

This isn't the traditional Jewish perspective. The Jewish perspective is that the written Torah was written by god and that the exact same version is what exists today. Whether this is true or not is a discussion for another time (and I don't really care to get involved in that topic), but if we assume divinity of the bible already for the sake of this discussion, then there is no inherent corruption assertion from this traditional viewpoint.

But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews, we must become part of you becuase we believe in the same prophets you wouldnt be religious conflict (atleast for half of earth population) so literally its a gift for you...

I don't really think this would be the case no matter what - especially since it's not really provable. The assertion is on the side saying the bible has been corrupted, thus it has the BOP. The lack of any specific evidence for this should count for something though - if anything in this realm of discussion really counts anyway (meaning faith matters here and if we are already assuming X is true, then having faith that there is corruption is just piling faith upon faith and there's no way I, or anyone else can disprove a matter of faith like this).

I suppose the better way to frame this might be if can you prove the OT and NT are corrupted. If so, shouldn't you may able to convert everyone else to your faith and "solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews" that way?
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DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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11/5/2014 7:43:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:55:57 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 7:42:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it. But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews,

You can't even solve the wars between Muslims and Muslims. Clean up your backyard first, then we'll talk.

hhhh well if you prove the Bible is intact, it would solve this one too :D

You can't even prove the Quran has anything to do with reality. Again, stop being a hypocrite and fix your religion first before attacking other religions.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/5/2014 8:50:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:55:11 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 5:18:53 PM, DPMartin wrote:
Question, why is Mecca the center of Islam? Didn"t Mohammad find his god in the collection of gods in that building back in his day? I maybe miss informed but I do believe that"s how it started correct?

Anyway, most Christians have no real reason to disprove anyone's belief. Most that don"t believe as Christians do are usually trying to disprove the Christian belief. So most if they give any time to it spend their efforts explaining their faith as best they can, and not always to the asker"s satisfaction.

Im not attacking christainy or judaism, my simple goal is to answer why people believe in something corrupted anyway? and if they think its not corrupted and can prove it (for their own benefit to ensure their faith), they will gain all muslims in a second that is what the muslim what the originals... if cant prove it, he loses evidence for his faith first and foremost wasting his time on things. logic tells me first you must have it intact if not, its wasting time. you disagree with this?

about the question, Mohhamed (pbuh) never found God "Allah" in mecca, its only the name for God in Arabic, if you open the Arabic Bible all the places where the word "God" are replaced with the word "Allah". its only in another langauge.

So why the pilgrimages to Mecca and the (parading for the lack of a better word) around a building that the rest of the world understands is where Mohammad found his god? Isn"t that building considered a holy place where Mohammad met his god?
bornofgod
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11/5/2014 10:21:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
the Quran claims in several verses that the original scriptures of David (pbuh) - Psalms Moses (pbuh) - Torah and of Jesus (pbuh)- the Gospel were corrupted and we cant trust them of what we have today, so my challenge here to jews and christains is why not consider what it claims? if you want to prove Quran is wrong here you go prove the bible is intact, if you do that, we muslims will have no hesitation to become christains of jews because we also believe in the same prophets and we believe in the originals messages of the prophets. but the problem is almost all scholars (except fundamentalists) say it corrupted.. here some the verses:

Quran:
7:162
But the transgressors among them changed the word from that which had been given them so we sent on them a plague from heaven. For that they repeatedly transgressed.

5:13-14
But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

4:48
Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few

6:91
No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

2:75,79
Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it" Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

3:187
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Allah took a covenant from those who were given the Scripture, [saying], "You must make it clear to the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind their backs and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which they purchased.

5:15
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.

2:159
Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse

2:174
Indeed, they who conceal what Allah has sent down of the Book and exchange it for a small price - those consume not into their bellies except the Fire. And Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. And they will have a painful punishment.

hadith:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah's Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- "We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136) (Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 12)


Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)


PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

Man was never given authority to judge another man. Only our invisible Creator has the authority to do so and that's why He had this commandment written;

Thou shalt NOT bear false witness against they neighbor.

The reason He had this commandment written is because God is the Creator of all religions to confuse His people with for His purpose.

Ever since the beginning, God has told man to listen to His voice and obey His commandments. We prophets and saints and a few believers who listen to us speak for our Creator will learn that God formed ALL His illusions from His invisible creation no matter if they appear evil or good to us observers.

The Muslims have no more right to judge Christians and Jews than Christians and Jews have a right to judge Muslims or anyone else. Both the new testament and Quran came from God's plan called the beast to confuse His people with.
peaceseeker
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11/5/2014 12:18:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Allah/God Proclaims:

I am what mankind has decided to call Allah/God.
I did not come from nowhere.
I play no magic tricks on man.
I did not create the earth by casting spells.
I had a humble beginning the same as man;
My beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.
My wisdom grows as more spirits unite
After the cessation of life after much physical strife.
Throughout time I have been named God,
Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.
I do not judge man for his vanity or naivety
To be the one who claims to please me the most.
I am easy to please. I require very little.
I only want you to do what is best for mankind.
I will bless you and wish you well.
I will inspire your mind and you will
Accomplish the unfathomable.
I require no worship. I need nothing from man.
I am self-sufficient. I am spirit.

Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can.
Live your life for the betterment of man.
Your spirit will soon be with me and then
Together we will see and traverse the universe.
There are many wonders to behold,
Your spirit will soar.
You will partake in all the wisdom
That has been gathered from the beginning of time.
The stars will be your playgrounds.
You can play with the animals,
Be with your loved ones,
Listen to the greatest opera,
Stage or musical performances,
Or you can just relax next to a bubbling brook
And enjoy the scenery.
You feel no pain, despair,
Heartache, or negative emotions.
You are now One with me.
You are with God my child.
peaceseeker
Posts: 90
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11/5/2014 12:31:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
ALL "Holy Books" were written by fallible men.

In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that may be a contributing cause of terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism; this would true enlightenment. The flaws in reasons for terrorism and violence in the name of religion should make people aware of the futility and intellectual gullibility of societies that have not progressed their beliefs since the Middle Ages.
peaceseeker
Posts: 90
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11/5/2014 12:44:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:55:57 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 7:42:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

You can't even solve the wars between Muslims and Muslims. Clean up your backyard first, then we'll talk.

hhhh well if you prove the Bible is intact, it would solve this one too :D

All Holy Books were written by fallible men.

I challenged you to a debate "Muslims Must Do More To Stop Terrorism". Will you accept it?
Ronanza
Posts: 2
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11/5/2014 12:50:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:15:19 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:03:17 PM, Wylted wrote:
If the religious needed proof o anything or cared about proof of anything they wouldn't be religious. Saying the bible is corrupt and that the Koran is not are both unfalsifiable statements.

We have westren scholars confirming Quran preservation (othmanic), for the bible what we have ? unanimous agreement about Bible corruption.

Confirming that the Quran has been perfectly preserved? You might be interested in reading the rigorously cited analysis of Ibn Warraq: http://www.newenglishreview.org...
Artur
Posts: 725
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11/5/2014 1:12:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it. But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews, we must become part of you becuase we believe in the same prophets you wouldnt be religious conflict (atleast for half of earth population) so literally its a gift for you...

ok, let us do it, let us ponder on some issues about whether it is intact or not:

1. How can we know the bible is full? It did not exclude anything? Here are about, approximately 200 types of gospels/epistles. http://earlychristianwritings.com...

now, if any of them is indeed inspired and not included in bible it will mean: bible is not intact.

What evidence do you have that the current bible is to be believed as it is? Current plight is not reliable.

2. Was Jesus jew/hebrew/israelite? Considering bible, he was.

Before Jesus, all revelations of God was done in hebrew, and all was given to jews so that they can know who the messiah is. considering this, the coming of messiah(let us assume Jesus was messiah) was to be known by the Jews and for this reason, Jesus must have spoken hebrew so that the hebrew can know he indeed is messiah.

If he spoke hebrew or aramaic, his original messages were in hebrew or aramaic, but the earliest scripts of current gospels and epistles all are in greek. Predicting, they were translated.

In order to be sure, we have to know who translated it? Did he translate correctly? Did not he add or remove anything? How can we know all this?

By comparing the original language and greek version, do you have gospels which was first written in hebrew by the disciples of Jesus?

If no, again, not reliable. Even if it is accurate, till it is proven it is not reliable.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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11/5/2014 1:43:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it.

I have no reason to think that Gospels are not as the original. To claim otherwise, person should know what the originals were. And person could as well say that "we don"t have original Quran, Muslims believe on fake Quran".
Artur
Posts: 725
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11/5/2014 2:07:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/5/2014 1:04:35 AM, airmax1227 wrote:
This is an interesting topic and one that I've been wondering about but haven't done much research into. Let me say I don't personally assert any type of truth value into any of the following, nor am I religious or a theist in any conventional sense. So most of this is just me stating the traditional view for the sake of trying to understanding your (The OP) perspective and wanting to know how it relates to the traditional Jewish perspective.

So I want to ask just a couple basic questions as they relate specifically to the Torah. What specifically has been corrupted? What did it say before it was corrupted? and what does it say now?

Jewish tradition believes that the Torah is completely uncorrupted (naturally they'd believe this). Part of the reason for this is because, for a Torah scroll (the written text which has to be written in a specific way, on specific material etc, and by an expert in writing them - and those are the texts used for official purposes) to be kosher (in the literal sense of "ok and valid" - not the terminology of ok to eat) it has to be 100% perfect. The rules regarding this are stringent enough that if even one letter (of the 304,805) of the scroll has become distorted or faded, the entire scroll is un-kosher. This type of stringency that we can assume for the sake of this goes back to antiquity (and by tradition since the very first one was provided through transmission by god) means that while many of the extremely expensive torah scrolls through the generations have had to be disposed of for not being 100% proper, it's meant that every single one of them in existence, since day one, is exactly identical.

Because of this stringency in the process of writing them, maintaining them, and being sure they are 100% accurate, (writing Torah scrolls is itself its own profession even) this would seem to make it unlikely that at any point during their transmission from day one ("Day one" is an arguable point itself being that there isn't a legitimate primary source I'd care to argue - though this topic assumes divinity anyway so we can ignore that) up to today, that "corruption" would go unnoticed. How so is it that this corruption, as asserted by the OP, and I understand Islam in general, backs up this assertion given this method of generational textual transmission?

If we can ignore the above and say that it's not the text itself that has been corrupted, and instead say that it's the "oral law", (which was provided along side this written version in traditional understanding) then isn't it incumbent upon one who is saying it is corrupted to provide an example of this? If so, what in particular has been corrupted? If not, what value is there in knowing that something was corrupted?

Or rather, is saying that any part of the oral law (or any part of the written law) is corrupted a wholesale way to delegitimize the entire belief system? In other words, is even a minor aspect of a religions source material being misunderstood/corrupted/changed, being posited as a foundational perversion reaching throughout the entire religious system?

From looking at some of the verses you cited it doesn't seem to actually say that something was changed/corrupted, rather that individuals themselves are corrupt and ignoring/changing important aspects. Is this a proper interpretation? or does it mean specific things god intended to be written/understood in text/orally are no longer present in the religious doctrine?

To conclude I'll ask the following: is there something specific that was changed/corrupted significantly enough that has resulted in a situation that Jews (and Christians per an alternate line of arguments) are following a completely ungodly and unintended (unintended by god) version of their religion? Are there any examples of this?

this post was good. Waiting answer from muslims and the author of this thread
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/5/2014 2:55:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 11:55:57 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 7:42:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/4/2014 4:08:44 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 3:37:17 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/4/2014 2:50:17 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
PROVE BIBLE IS INTACT, WE BECOME PART OF YOURS - 2 BILLION MUSLIMS ITS A LOT STUFF TO GAIN. thanks.

I think those who claim that Bible is not intact should prove that it is not intact. I have no reason to think it is not intact.

Almost all scholars christians and non christians alike telling you the bible is corrupted/changed and we dont have the originals unknown authors wrote it. But the challenge is very simple if you prove otherwise, you would solve all the wars between muslims and christians/jews,

You can't even solve the wars between Muslims and Muslims. Clean up your backyard first, then we'll talk.

hhhh well if you prove the Bible is intact, it would solve this one too :D

With all due respect to you and your knowledge of the Qur'an, I cannot bring myself agree with this statement. I know very little about the Islamic faith. I will not lie. However, I cannot see that proving the validity of the writings held dear to Jews and Christians could make any difference in the minds of Muslims. I would like for you to provide a valid proof to support your claims that it would bring peace within the Islamic nation and put an end to ongoing conflicts.

Again, with all due respect I will also say this. There are those who would argue that religion is the cause of most of the world's horrible conflicts resulting in unnecessary death and even genocide. I find extreme fallacy in such a statement. War is more often about power, land and currency. Religion is often used as an excuse to ordain such actions, but is not the cause. It is simply a catalyst.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/5/2014 5:21:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Sigh. Here is an appetizer to get the discussion going.

Hold old is the oldest OT manuscript?
Spoiler Alert: The answer is 1200 years after Moses...

Did Moses write or say this? If not, then who did, when, and where?

Deuteronomy 34:5-10
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.
9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom because Moses had laid his hands on him. So the Israelites listened to him and did what the Lord had commanded Moses.
10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,


Did Joshua write or say this? If not, then who did, when, and where?

Joshua 24:29-33
29 After these things, Joshua son of Nun, the servant of the Lord, died at the age of a hundred and ten. 30 And they buried him in the land of his inheritance, at Timnath Serah in the hill country of Ephraim, north of Mount Gaash.
31 Israel served the Lord throughout the lifetime of Joshua and of the elders who outlived him and who had experienced everything the Lord had done for Israel.
32 And Joseph"s bones, which the Israelites had brought up from Egypt, were buried at Shechem in the tract of land that Jacob bought for a hundred pieces of silver[b] from the sons of Hamor, the father of Shechem. This became the inheritance of Joseph"s descendants.
33 And Eleazar son of Aaron died and was buried at Gibeah, which had been allotted to his son Phinehas in the hill country of Ephraim.


Did Matthew write this? If not, then who did, when, and where?

Matthew 9:9
9 As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector"s booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

Also, can you be kind and inform me where these verses came from?
1 John 5:7
Mark 16:9-20
John 7 53-8:11


The above are some of the most famous "later insertions to the bible". I can easily bring you a dozen more verses omitted in some newer translations of the bible.

http://www.westarinstitute.org...
Eighty-two percent of the words ascribed to Jesus in the gospels were not actually spoken by him, according to the Jesus Seminar.

I don't want the question of whether contradictions exist in the bible to be centric to be centric to this topic, but it is related nonetheless. I find the meeting-Jesus story particularly intriguing.
Will try to be concise, here are the full texts:

Acts 9
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Acts 22
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Acts 26
https://www.biblegateway.com...

Acts 9:5-6
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."


Acts 22:10
10 ""What shall I do, Lord?" I asked.
" "Get up," the Lord said, "and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do."


Acts 26:15-18
15 "Then I asked, "Who are you, Lord?"
" "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," the Lord replied. 16 "Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me."

So... Did Paul go to the city blind or did he go already knowing what his purpose is?

---

Acts 9:7-9
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

Acts 22:9-11
6 "About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me. 7 I fell to the ground and heard a voice say to me, "Saul! Saul! Why do you persecute me?"
8 ""Who are you, Lord?" I asked.
" "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 9 My companions saw the light, but they did not understand the voice of him who was speaking to me.


Acts 26:13-14
13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

I am confused. Did Paul's companions see something or not? Did they hear a voice or gibberish? Who exactly fell and who stood still?
Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. Assuming the men did actually see something, and the light they saw was so great that it blinded Paul for three days, so why weren't his light-seeing companions blind as well?