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Father and son

MadCornishBiker
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11/4/2014 9:04:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Throughout scripture, wherever the two are mentioned they are father and son, two distinct people with two distinct personalities.

God's son was created by his father as the "Beginning of how way" Proverbs 8:22-24 "22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water."

Note he was "brought forth", he was "set up" Proverbs 8 is an exact parallel to God's son and his role including, or maybe especially verses 30,31 " 30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him, 31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men; which matches in well with Colossians 1:16 ASV(i) "16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;" Highlighting is mine.

Through his time on earth he always stressed that he was in subjection to his father, as any son should be according to the Mosaic Law..

He also told Mary after his resurrection that he had a God as well as Father,the same one that she had John 20:17 "ASV(i) 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."

Revelation 3:14 also calls him the beginning of the creation by God" indicating that he was the first act of creation since the beginning of any task is the first act taken in that task.

This also fits in with John 1:14, which calls God's son God's "only begotten son" which can only apply to God's son pre human existence, and fits in well with Proverbs 8:22, and Colossians 1:15 ASV(i) "15 who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; "

Some say that "first-born" refers only to pre-eminence, but that in effect is a nonsense because his pre-eminence comes from the simple fact the he was indeed the first-born of all creation, literally as all the others show.

So, the very few mistranslations and one or two misunderstandings aside, God son was and is a created being, one generation down from his father, and being used in the creation of all else becomes the eternal father of all of us.

Eternal does not mean without beginning, it does however mean without end. After all Adam was created to be eternal and he had a most definite beginning

It is also noticeable that the Apostles took their cue from Jesus and always praise his father over and above Christ himself wit writings such as 1 Peter 1:3, even, in Paul's case at least, pointing to the scripture in Joel 2:32 which tells that salvation comes to those who call on Jehovah, Christ's father, so that Salvation comes through Christ but from his father, this is, of course, because without the power God provides through holy spirit, even his son can do nothing.

To any who read the Christian Greek Scriptures to any depth whatever it soon becomes obvious that the whole of those writings that have been gathered treat God's son as a completely separate being in subjection to his father as a son should be. It is however only the detail, such as I have pointed out, that reveals that God's son was indeed a created being, though the broadest hint is in the fact that he is called God's son with all that implies.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/4/2014 9:41:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ok then, what does this mean in your theology? (Note this is not to exclude the scripture you have quoted)
KJV
Jn:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Also just what is the Light of men? And what is the light that God told creation to let be? Note that it is the first thing He said after He was Present in His creation. The sun and stars weren"t until the 4th day.

Jesus says God is Spirit, therefore what is Son of Spirit? Also what was it that Adam died of, consdering what (KJV) Lk:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/4/2014 10:32:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't think Jesus was created. Besides all the arguments showing that Jesus is God, there are a few others that specifically bare on whether Jesus could've been created or not.

One of them is John 1:3 which says that apart from Jesus, nothing came into being that has come into being. That means everything that came into being did so through Jesus. That makes it impossible that Jesus himself could've come into being.

Colossians 1:16 makes the same point. It says that all things were created by Jesus. Then it goes on to say, "whether in the heavens or on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through him and for him." Paul's intention is obviously to be exhaustive about what came into being through Jesus. That makes it impossible that Jesus himself came into being.

None of the passages you brought up show unequivocally that Jesus was created. Proverbs 8:22-24 is a poem about wisdom, and the personification of wisdom in this passage is a literary device. It's not talking literally about Jesus OR wisdom.

The fact that Jesus is called the son of God doesn't imply that Jesus was created because (1) Jesus is not a literal son of God at all in the same sense that we are sons of our fathers. That is, Jesus was not the result of literal procreation. (2) If "son of God" WAS literally, it would follow that Jesus is God. After all, the son of a human is a human, so the son of God would have to be God. (3) "Son of God" is a messianic title that comes from passages like these:

Psalm 2:6-7 "But as for me, I have installed my king upon Zion, my holy mountain. I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.""

Psalm 89:20-27 "I have found David my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him".He will cry out to me, "You are my Father, my God, and the rock of my salvation." I also shall make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth."

2 Samuel 12:12-14 "When your [David"s] days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be a father to him, and he will be a son to me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men."

So "son of God" was a title attributed to kings of Israel who were annointed as kings. It's a messianic title and doesn't tell us anything about whether the person who bares that title was created or not.

The subordination of Jesus doesn't tell us anything about whether he was created or not.

Revelation 3:14 doesn't unequivocally say that Jesus was the first thing God created. Being the "beginning of the creation of God" could just as well mean that Jesus is the origin of creation. In other words, Jesus is the one through whom creation came, just as John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 say. Another possible meaning is that Jesus is the ruler of creation. The word, "arche," has a semantic domain that includes beginning, origin, highest, etc.

John 1:14 does not say that Jesus is the only BEGOTTEN son. That is a mistranslation. The word used is "monogenes," which means "unique" or "one of a kind." If it had meant begotten, it would'ved said, "monogennao."

Your response to the claim that "firstborn" when used of Jesus in Colossians 1:15 refers to his pre-eminence comes from the fact that he the first born (literally, the first one created), but that's more of an assertion than an argument. There is no reason to think "firstborn" in that context means anything other than pre-eminance. If you read the whole passage there in Colossians, the reason Jesus is pre-eminant over creation is because he is the source of creation, not because he is the first one created. Just look at it.

Colossians 1:15-16 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created. . ."

It is because all things were created by him that he is the firstborn of all creation, not because he was the first thing created. Paul goes on to say,

"Firstborn" is another messianic title that comes from Psalm 89:27, which I cited earlier. There, it calls David the "firstborn," and tells us specifically what it means. It means "the highest of the kings of the earth." That is why Jesus is called the "king of kings." David was neither the first king of Israel, nor the first son of his father, nor the first thing God created. "Firstborn" refers strictly to his pre-eminance as king, and since Jesus is the king of kings, that's what it means in his case, too. The context of Colossians makes this clear.

At the beginning of your post, you rightly pointed out that Jesus is a different person than the Father. Then at the end, you say he's a separate being. The only way you can just from saying he's a separate person to saying he's a separate being is if you beg the question against Trinitarians by assuming from the get go that God can only be one person. Obviously if you begin with the assumption that God is only one person, then any passage showing Jesus to be a distinct person from the Father will show that Jesus is a distinct being. But that's a question-begging argument. If God is more than one person, then the fact that Jesus and the Father are separate persons does not entail that they are separate beings. So you can't settle the issue of whether God is one person or three persons by assuming your own point of view in order to arrive at your conclusion. That's circular reasoning.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/4/2014 10:37:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/4/2014 9:04:59 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Throughout scripture, wherever the two are mentioned they are father and son, two distinct people with two distinct personalities.

God's son was created by his father as the "Beginning of how way" Proverbs 8:22-24 "22 Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water."

Note he was "brought forth", he was "set up" Proverbs 8 is an exact parallel to God's son and his role including, or maybe especially verses 30,31 " 30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him, 31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men; which matches in well with Colossians 1:16 ASV(i) "16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;" Highlighting is mine.

Through his time on earth he always stressed that he was in subjection to his father, as any son should be according to the Mosaic Law..

He also told Mary after his resurrection that he had a God as well as Father,the same one that she had John 20:17 "ASV(i) 17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God."

Revelation 3:14 also calls him the beginning of the creation by God" indicating that he was the first act of creation since the beginning of any task is the first act taken in that task.

This also fits in with John 1:14, which calls God's son God's "only begotten son" which can only apply to God's son pre human existence, and fits in well with Proverbs 8:22, and Colossians 1:15 ASV(i) "15 who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; "

Some say that "first-born" refers only to pre-eminence, but that in effect is a nonsense because his pre-eminence comes from the simple fact the he was indeed the first-born of all creation, literally as all the others show.

So, the very few mistranslations and one or two misunderstandings aside, God son was and is a created being, one generation down from his father, and being used in the creation of all else becomes the eternal father of all of us.

Eternal does not mean without beginning, it does however mean without end. After all Adam was created to be eternal and he had a most definite beginning

It is also noticeable that the Apostles took their cue from Jesus and always praise his father over and above Christ himself wit writings such as 1 Peter 1:3, even, in Paul's case at least, pointing to the scripture in Joel 2:32 which tells that salvation comes to those who call on Jehovah, Christ's father, so that Salvation comes through Christ but from his father, this is, of course, because without the power God provides through holy spirit, even his son can do nothing.

To any who read the Christian Greek Scriptures to any depth whatever it soon becomes obvious that the whole of those writings that have been gathered treat God's son as a completely separate being in subjection to his father as a son should be. It is however only the detail, such as I have pointed out, that reveals that God's son was indeed a created being, though the broadest hint is in the fact that he is called God's son with all that implies.

You still don't understand what "Christ" means.

Psalm 92
5: How great are thy works, O LORD! Thy thoughts are very deep!
6: The dull man cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this: