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Implications of life on Mars?

Idealist
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11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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11/7/2014 8:36:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

If it played out a certain way, the existence of alien life would not be problematic to Christianity.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Vox_Veritas
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11/7/2014 8:36:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:36:12 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

If it played out a certain way, the existence of alien life would not be problematic to Christianity.

Actually, it really doesn't provide a problem for Christianity.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
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11/7/2014 8:40:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In fact, the science fiction story that I'm writing is a scenario that includes alien life and it all fits nicely for Christianity.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/7/2014 9:02:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

I think that the Evolution vs. Creation threads prove that it would probably not go well at first. There will people who say it's a lie and a conspiracy to support evolution and to put an end to creationism.

Then again, maybe it'll go great and we will all live in peace forever. ;)
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Vox_Veritas
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11/7/2014 9:14:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 9:02:51 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

I think that the Evolution vs. Creation threads prove that it would probably not go well at first. There will people who say it's a lie and a conspiracy to support evolution and to put an end to creationism.

Well, that would be a possibility, though unlikely.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/7/2014 10:27:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 9:02:51 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

I think that the Evolution vs. Creation threads prove that it would probably not go well at first. There will people who say it's a lie and a conspiracy to support evolution and to put an end to creationism.
That's an interesting thought. You're probably correct. It would be completely denied at first, then certain denominations would declare it to be unproblematic, and eventually they'd get around to claiming the Bible (Qur'an, Oahspe, etc.), had revealed that knowledge all along.

Then again, maybe it'll go great and we will all live in peace forever. ;)
Oh no! Not that. That wouldn't happen. Were would we send the people who elect politicians to political office?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/7/2014 11:23:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

LOL Yeah, by sending plagues Pharoah's heart became harder and harder, i. e. more and more stubborn. That's like saying that giving some people more and more money makes them more greedy. But the truth is that Pharoah hardened his own heart - and the Bible so teaches.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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11/7/2014 11:31:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

Dude, God has the right to do whatever the heck He wants, even if it's to torture all of humanity eternally. Even if humans had not sinned, God still would've had a right to do that.
Why? Because He's God. It's hard for independent, selfish humans like all of us to get this through our thick skulls, as we feel entitled to control our own lives, but we actually are not entitled to anything. Nothing at all.
If the Egyptian population had NOT kept God's chosen people in bondage for centuries and they had NOT sinned against God at any point and God decided to wipe every single Egyptian out anyway, the appropriate response would be to say, "If that's what you wanted to do, God, then okay. I won't complain about it."
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/7/2014 11:32:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:23:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

LOL Yeah, by sending plagues Pharoah's heart became harder and harder, i. e. more and more stubborn. That's like saying that giving some people more and more money makes them more greedy. But the truth is that Pharoah hardened his own heart - and the Bible so teaches.

Ex 7:3-5 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

So, yeah, God mucked about with Pharaoh's free will, and to no one's surprise, Pharaoh believe the Lord's intervention to be his own free will, and held to it. Not to mention the Lord states that He will harden his heard while all these fantastic things happen.

So, yes, God made up Pharaoh's mind for him, as written in scripture. Thanks for playing.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/7/2014 11:36:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:31:21 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

Dude, God has the right to do whatever the heck He wants, even if it's to torture all of humanity eternally. Even if humans had not sinned, God still would've had a right to do that.
Why? Because He's God. It's hard for independent, selfish humans like all of us to get this through our thick skulls, as we feel entitled to control our own lives, but we actually are not entitled to anything. Nothing at all.
If the Egyptian population had NOT kept God's chosen people in bondage for centuries and they had NOT sinned against God at any point and God decided to wipe every single Egyptian out anyway, the appropriate response would be to say, "If that's what you wanted to do, God, then okay. I won't complain about it."

Then God should probably come down and explain that, then, wouldn't you agree?

The purpose of ruling in such a fashion is to encourage (extort) worship and devotion, yet from current stand points, the throne is empty.

'Entitled to control our own lives', though, is the biggest chuckle I got out of that. The very phrase infers that we SHOULD be in control of OUR OWN lives.

Why would I want to worship such a petty brat of a deity? That isn't God, that is a six year old with an Ant Farm and a magnifying glass.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/7/2014 11:46:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:32:47 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:23:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

LOL Yeah, by sending plagues Pharoah's heart became harder and harder, i. e. more and more stubborn. That's like saying that giving some people more and more money makes them more greedy. But the truth is that Pharoah hardened his own heart - and the Bible so teaches.

Ex 7:3-5 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

So, yeah, God mucked about with Pharaoh's free will, and to no one's surprise, Pharaoh believe the Lord's intervention to be his own free will, and held to it. Not to mention the Lord states that He will harden his heard while all these fantastic things happen.

So, yes, God made up Pharaoh's mind for him, as written in scripture. Thanks for playing.

There is no "playing". "And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Exo 8: 32) Who DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Pharoah did.

And again, "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." (Exo 9: 34)

Who DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Pharoah did. Did God indirectly do so by sending plagues? Yep. Did this remove Pharoah's free will? Of course not.

And again, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken."

Now who was it that DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Once again, Pharoah did. Did God play a role in indirectly doing so? Yep, this time by REMOVING the plague.

So you don't know if you are pitching or catching. You actually are silly enough to think that the Bible teaches that God stepped in, independent of means, and directly, literally, and actually caused Pharoah to make the decisions that he did. Yet in three passages up there, the Bible distinctly says that Pharoah hardened his own heart.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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11/7/2014 11:47:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:36:32 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:31:21 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

Dude, God has the right to do whatever the heck He wants, even if it's to torture all of humanity eternally. Even if humans had not sinned, God still would've had a right to do that.
Why? Because He's God. It's hard for independent, selfish humans like all of us to get this through our thick skulls, as we feel entitled to control our own lives, but we actually are not entitled to anything. Nothing at all.
If the Egyptian population had NOT kept God's chosen people in bondage for centuries and they had NOT sinned against God at any point and God decided to wipe every single Egyptian out anyway, the appropriate response would be to say, "If that's what you wanted to do, God, then okay. I won't complain about it."

Then God should probably come down and explain that, then, wouldn't you agree?

The purpose of ruling in such a fashion is to encourage (extort) worship and devotion, yet from current stand points, the throne is empty.

Extortion involves taking what doesn't belong to you. This analogy holds water only if God didn't already have a right to you and everything within you.

'Entitled to control our own lives', though, is the biggest chuckle I got out of that. The very phrase infers that we SHOULD be in control of OUR OWN lives.

Why?

Why would I want to worship such a petty brat of a deity? That isn't God, that is a six year old with an Ant Farm and a magnifying glass.

"Why would I want to worship such a petty brat of a deity?"
This statement assumes that you and God are on equal footing, and that you naturally have as many rights as He does. Well you don't. You are obligated to worship Him. However, just because He is that nice, he is giving you and me the option of not worshipping Him, and He will even allow you to spend eternity governing your own self and being in control over your own life. It's called Hell, and I guarantee you that being the servant who wipes God's sweat (He probably doesn't sweat but I'm just using that analogy here) is infinitely better than being a king while cast out from God's presence.
Of course, there's probably nothing that I'm telling you now that you haven't already heard before, so I'll stop.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/7/2014 11:52:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:46:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:32:47 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:23:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

LOL Yeah, by sending plagues Pharoah's heart became harder and harder, i. e. more and more stubborn. That's like saying that giving some people more and more money makes them more greedy. But the truth is that Pharoah hardened his own heart - and the Bible so teaches.

Ex 7:3-5 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

So, yeah, God mucked about with Pharaoh's free will, and to no one's surprise, Pharaoh believe the Lord's intervention to be his own free will, and held to it. Not to mention the Lord states that He will harden his heard while all these fantastic things happen.

So, yes, God made up Pharaoh's mind for him, as written in scripture. Thanks for playing.

There is no "playing". "And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Exo 8: 32) Who DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Pharoah did.

And again, "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." (Exo 9: 34)

Who DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Pharoah did. Did God indirectly do so by sending plagues? Yep. Did this remove Pharoah's free will? Of course not.

And again, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken."

Now who was it that DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Once again, Pharoah did. Did God play a role in indirectly doing so? Yep, this time by REMOVING the plague.

So you don't know if you are pitching or catching. You actually are silly enough to think that the Bible teaches that God stepped in, independent of means, and directly, literally, and actually caused Pharoah to make the decisions that he did. Yet in three passages up there, the Bible distinctly says that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

AFTER saying God did would do it first. You can't unthink a thought. The scripture specifically states that God would step in, God Himself specifically said He would do it, and lo, it came to pass as God said He would intervene. Post God's interference, sure, we can say it was then all up to Pharaoh, but would he have even 'hardened his heart' should God NOT have intervened?

So.... God either DID interfer with free will (even it is only once), there by setting up a disatrous chain of events...

Or He lied about it.

You aren't arguing ME on this, you are arguing the first instance of the LORD specifically stating HE would harden Pharaoh's heart. Its black-and-white-plain-as-day scripture, He mucked about with free will.
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annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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11/8/2014 12:12:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:52:08 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:46:40 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:32:47 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:23:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

LOL Yeah, by sending plagues Pharoah's heart became harder and harder, i. e. more and more stubborn. That's like saying that giving some people more and more money makes them more greedy. But the truth is that Pharoah hardened his own heart - and the Bible so teaches.

Ex 7:3-5 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

So, yeah, God mucked about with Pharaoh's free will, and to no one's surprise, Pharaoh believe the Lord's intervention to be his own free will, and held to it. Not to mention the Lord states that He will harden his heard while all these fantastic things happen.

So, yes, God made up Pharaoh's mind for him, as written in scripture. Thanks for playing.

There is no "playing". "And Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Exo 8: 32) Who DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Pharoah did.

And again, "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants." (Exo 9: 34)

Who DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Pharoah did. Did God indirectly do so by sending plagues? Yep. Did this remove Pharoah's free will? Of course not.

And again, "But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them, as Jehovah had spoken."

Now who was it that DIRECTLY hardened Pharoah's heart? Once again, Pharoah did. Did God play a role in indirectly doing so? Yep, this time by REMOVING the plague.

So you don't know if you are pitching or catching. You actually are silly enough to think that the Bible teaches that God stepped in, independent of means, and directly, literally, and actually caused Pharoah to make the decisions that he did. Yet in three passages up there, the Bible distinctly says that Pharoah hardened his own heart.

AFTER saying God did would do it first. You can't unthink a thought. The scripture specifically states that God would step in, God Himself specifically said He would do it, and lo, it came to pass as God said He would intervene. Post God's interference, sure, we can say it was then all up to Pharaoh, but would he have even 'hardened his heart' should God NOT have intervened?

So.... God either DID interfer with free will (even it is only once), there by setting up a disatrous chain of events...

Or He lied about it.

You aren't arguing ME on this, you are arguing the first instance of the LORD specifically stating HE would harden Pharaoh's heart. Its black-and-white-plain-as-day scripture, He mucked about with free will.

Very well. According to you, God hardened Pharoah's heart, and Pharoah hardened his own heart at the same time.

What did you have to say about God merely hardening Pharoah's heart in a secondary, an indirect, sense, e. g. by the employment of means? Not a thing. It's not a part of your agenda.

God could truthfully say, "I hardened Pharoah's heart" just as some girl might say, "I caused my boyfriend, or husband, or fiance to cheat on me." In neither case does it mean that the other party did so DIRECTLY, and that's a mighty big difference. No matter what the girlfriend or wife does, the man makes up his own mind to cheat.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Idealist
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11/8/2014 12:32:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:36:12 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

If it played out a certain way, the existence of alien life would not be problematic to Christianity.

Would you mind going a step further? How would it have to play-out in order to cause no problems for Christianity, especially for Young Earth Creationists?
Idealist
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11/8/2014 12:33:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:40:23 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
In fact, the science fiction story that I'm writing is a scenario that includes alien life and it all fits nicely for Christianity.

Any hints on how it deals with the advent of Christ?
Idealist
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11/8/2014 12:36:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 9:02:51 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

I think that the Evolution vs. Creation threads prove that it would probably not go well at first. There will people who say it's a lie and a conspiracy to support evolution and to put an end to creationism.

Then again, maybe it'll go great and we will all live in peace forever. ;)

Wouldn't that be nice? The "living in peace forever," I mean. Are you an idealist, too? :P I think you're right that it would settle down to some form of revised argument in the end, but it's hard for me to imagine that it wouldn't become a major factor in many arguments.
Idealist
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11/8/2014 12:41:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

To be perfectly fair, I think that almost any religious, moral, or spiritual group can twist the facts to suit their own needs. Republicans and democrats are as contentious as Catholics and Protestants. The Soviet Union was the first great empire to publicly declare itself an "enlightened" atheistic state, and yet look at how much misery and death it caused.
Idealist
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11/8/2014 12:44:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

The Romans believed that a man owned his wife and children as well as slaves, and could kill them if he wished, and they believed in polytheism. It's not fair to ignore that ancient people nearly all had harsh laws and inhumane practices.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/8/2014 12:46:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/8/2014 12:44:42 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

The Romans believed that a man owned his wife and children as well as slaves, and could kill them if he wished, and they believed in polytheism. It's not fair to ignore that ancient people nearly all had harsh laws and inhumane practices.

And just as hollow dieties and mandates, which is why credence in them is summarily dismissed.
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ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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11/8/2014 12:47:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

It would be fought with a fervor that would make their resistance to the BBT look like a picnic, I would wager. Life on ANY other planet would obliterate the presupposition that this entire universe was created with humans in mind.

Then again, there is no limit to the uses of "God made it that way..."
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/8/2014 12:52:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/8/2014 12:36:22 AM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/7/2014 9:02:51 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

I think that the Evolution vs. Creation threads prove that it would probably not go well at first. There will people who say it's a lie and a conspiracy to support evolution and to put an end to creationism.

Then again, maybe it'll go great and we will all live in peace forever. ;)

Wouldn't that be nice? The "living in peace forever," I mean. Are you an idealist, too? :P I think you're right that it would settle down to some form of revised argument in the end, but it's hard for me to imagine that it wouldn't become a major factor in many arguments.

It's always good to be an optimist!
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
ThinkFirst
Posts: 1,391
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11/8/2014 12:55:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

You call the bible the "word of god." You claim your god is the "essence of goodness," and the "grounding of objective morality." Your god is claimed to have mandated every single act Beastt indicated. By extension, your (belief in your) god having mandated these things makes them "good." Then, again, I really wouldn't anticipate that a degenerate racist would realize the implications...
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ThinkFirst
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11/8/2014 12:58:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/7/2014 11:23:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:19:43 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:18:00 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 11:15:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:26:31 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/7/2014 10:22:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/7/2014 8:04:17 PM, Idealist wrote:
How would it affect religion if it were discovered that life once existed on Mars? Would religionists be able to "twist" their holy books in a way which could include this reality? I don't see how it would much affect those who are merely spiritual and who do no subscribe to a particular faith, but it seems to me that, especially for the YECers, such a discovery would resist inclusion into their faith.

They can twist their religious books into suggesting that slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide are all moral righteous acts. Twisting them to suggest life on Mars fits with Genesis and is even indicated, should be a piece of cake for them.

I do not recall ANYONE suggesting that "slavery, rape, infanticide, and genocide" are "moral righteous acts."

That would be the Old testament taken as a whole. God killed the first born of pretty much all of Egypt, and commanded the Canaanites be slain, and other clear indications that slavery was no big, and that rape was just a clever way of taking a wife can be found, too. If God is all good and all moral, explain axing the first born of the Egyptians in one fell swoop because God made up Pharoah's mind for him.

I never claimed that "God made up Pharoah's mind for him." I see where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

You don't have to, the Bible did, and there is clear scripture that the Lord specifically stated He will harden Pharoah's heart.

LOL Yeah, by sending plagues Pharoah's heart became harder and harder, i. e. more and more stubborn. That's like saying that giving some people more and more money makes them more greedy. But the truth is that Pharoah hardened his own heart - and the Bible so teaches.

Exodus 9:12
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein