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Lying - the true face of Religion

Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Thanksfornotraping
Posts: 238
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11/9/2014 1:31:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

The answer, as we both know, is quite simple- these people are completely insane and live their entire lives in fear because of something they think they did to offend a god who would torture them forever...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/9/2014 2:19:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You obviously don't know what lying is.

Sincerely believing something that is false doesn't constitute lying.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Beastt
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11/9/2014 2:33:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 2:19:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You obviously don't know what lying is.

Sincerely believing something that is false doesn't constitute lying.

I never said it did. Please show me where I said any such thing. I'm talking about the blatant dishonesty involved in trying to defend the beliefs. For example; challenging someone to provide scripture which makes a particular claim, and then lying and claiming they didn't ever present that scripture even after it has been presented multiple times.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
celestialtorahteacher
Posts: 1,369
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11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others? You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority, i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do? You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable of overcoming your mental illness that drives you to be a complete archetypal TROLL, the ugly ubiquitous followers of Christians stalking Christians on most every internet public religious forum, each of you boring the shite out of us with the same old cliche arguments against theism and the Bible and all that that is so passe as to be a living joke.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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11/9/2014 5:48:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others? You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority, i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do? You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable ...

Dang, you only wanted to see NO POSTS from me for one day.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
carriead20
Posts: 1,394
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11/9/2014 5:56:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others? You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority, i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do? You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable of overcoming your mental illness that drives you to be a complete archetypal TROLL, the ugly ubiquitous followers of Christians stalking Christians on most every internet public religious forum, each of you boring the shite out of us with the same old cliche arguments against theism and the Bible and all that that is so passe as to be a living joke.

This is exactly why I don't like theists. All they do is attack atheists.
To all the people fighting a hard battle out there - life's giving you a pretty hard beating. There's no sugarcoating that, but there's no shadow that's free of light. When life sneers at you and asks, "Ready to go again?" - Raise your hand. Reach out to victory. Don't give in.

---Help Bsh and YYW see each other---
http://www.gofundme.com...
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/9/2014 6:09:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

Does that principle also apply to you?

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

How willing would you be to admit it is more than just a ball of gas?
http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com...
It seems people constantly draw wrong conclusions due to their own interpretation of their observations and also due to a lack of information.
In a thousand years from today how much of what we currently believe will be superseded by the newer advanced technology and information of the future? How does anyone know that all we believe today is not just merely a more "advanced" superstition and is ultimately no better than what our superstitious ancestors believed to be true in their time. History teaches us that humans believe their own observations and often draw false conclusions from them. Then they teach those theories to future generations as truth because they believe they are true. It is all a mater of perception and faith in the end regardless of whether you wish to believe science or religion. You need to have faith that your teachers are in fact telling the truth and not simply parroting what they also were taught was truth.
Reality has plenty of evidence that the truth can be hidden behind all kinds of illusions. The sad thing is that many people still believe only what they see and do not consider it might be just an illusion, a trick of nature, a trick of human perception, something which appears to be real but is not real at all.
Till such a time as something is invented which can actually enter the sun and take a sample of its core and return to Earth with the evidence, no human on Earth will ever really know what is in it.

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

Do you really believe it is just a ball of gas? How can you be certain the sun is actually a ball of hydrogen gas?
How can anyone be certain it has a surface crust made of iron?
What if both are illusions created by human technology which will be perceived as nothing better than cave man tools in a few thousand years from today? Human technology can create many illusions.

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

Science is not exempt from being prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they are taught.
They also attempt to defend their theories and resort to calling presumptions by other names to make their conclusions regarding their perceptions of their own observations sound convincing.
It takes just as much faith to believe a universe was created by some big bang as it does to believe it was created by a magic fairy or a god. Any evidence is circumstantial and humans make mistakes in what they conclude from circumstantial evidence.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

No religion insists that people lie to themselves any more than science insists that scientists lie to themselves but they still do because they want to believe what they are taught rather than questioning the feasability, logic and reality of any concepts and ideas and theories. Anything that implies life in general once did not exist is based on human imagination and based on the whole idea that just because a single life form has a beginning and end that life in general also must have a beginning and end. That is false reasoning. It is the kind of reasoning which throws out circular thinking or circular reasoning in favor of linear thinking. You need to embrace both to get the whole overall view of any reality which moves in cycles and repeats itself. When looking at anything cyclic you need to use circular reasoning simply due to the fact that the beginning and end are in exactly the same place. It is like placing a point on the circumference of a circle. It makes no difference where you place the point and call it the beginning of the circle, the fact is that you will always end at the same place as you began if you wish to complete the circle. In this way the beginning and end are the same point.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Humans create and write stories. Some believe the stories and some do not. It makes no difference of the stories are religious or scientific. Both have areas of fantasy and reality. All fantasy is based on some kind of reality and created by reality.
The reality is hidden behind the fantasy just like the truth about how an illusion is created is hidden behind the illusion itself. The sad thing is that many gullible people believe the illusion (the lie) is a reality ( truth) rather than understanding the Truth behind the illusion.
They are not lying any more than a child is lying when they claim that a magical Santa exists at the North Pole. They really do believe it and have evidence to prove it even if the evidence is all circumstantial and they draw wrong conclusions from it. The fact is that humans believe their own perceptions because those perceptions appear real to them as individuals.
Self deceived people have no clue they are deceiving themselves.
If they knew they were deceiving themselves, would they still be deceiving themselves?
Why would anyone want to deliberately fool themselves about anything in the first place?
Gullible humans are unaware of the deception which fools them.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/9/2014 6:26:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 1:31:35 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

The answer, as we both know, is quite simple- these people are completely insane and live their entire lives in fear because of something they think they did to offend a god who would torture them forever...

When children are taught that Santa is real or taught that they are bad and useless from birth and don't deserve to live. Does that make the children insane for believing what they were taught or does it make the adults insane for teaching those kinds of lies to the children? Growing up is all about learning that the people we trusted the most lied to us, deceived and fooled us when we were children. The adults who truly believe they are evil and worthless and don't deserve to live, then also teach children to have the same attitude toward themselves are leading the children astray and creating very low self esteem in them. Then the adults wonder why the children rebel against them and don't trust them later in life.

It makes no difference if those adults believe religious doctrines or scientific theories. Deception exists in all circles and the adult will pass on the things they have learned as being right and acceptable through their own traditions. Obviously deception is an acceptable part of life. If it was not, adults would stop teaching children that fantasy characters exist in reality.

There is religious fiction and also science fiction.
The trick is learning to tell the difference between what is a fantasy and what is a reality.
The only way to learn about reality is by studying reality not by studying theories or hypothetical situations or believing in any imaginary beings.
To learn about illusions you need to study the illusions and understand they are based on a reality.
If you do not have a reality in the first place, you have nothing to create an illusion.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/9/2014 6:28:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 2:19:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You obviously don't know what lying is.

Sincerely believing something that is false doesn't constitute lying.

Obviously not but it does constitute self deception of which people are obviously unaware, otherwise they would not be deceiving themselves.
Thanksfornotraping
Posts: 238
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11/9/2014 6:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 6:26:23 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:31:35 PM, Thanksfornotraping wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

The answer, as we both know, is quite simple- these people are completely insane and live their entire lives in fear because of something they think they did to offend a god who would torture them forever...

When children are taught that Santa is real or taught that they are bad and useless from birth and don't deserve to live. Does that make the children insane for believing what they were taught or does it make the adults insane for teaching those kinds of lies to the children? Growing up is all about learning that the people we trusted the most lied to us, deceived and fooled us when we were children. The adults who truly believe they are evil and worthless and don't deserve to live, then also teach children to have the same attitude toward themselves are leading the children astray and creating very low self esteem in them. Then the adults wonder why the children rebel against them and don't trust them later in life.

It makes no difference if those adults believe religious doctrines or scientific theories. Deception exists in all circles and the adult will pass on the things they have learned as being right and acceptable through their own traditions. Obviously deception is an acceptable part of life. If it was not, adults would stop teaching children that fantasy characters exist in reality.

There is religious fiction and also science fiction.
The trick is learning to tell the difference between what is a fantasy and what is a reality.
The only way to learn about reality is by studying reality not by studying theories or hypothetical situations or believing in any imaginary beings.
To learn about illusions you need to study the illusions and understand they are based on a reality.
If you do not have a reality in the first place, you have nothing to create an illusion.

Yep
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/9/2014 6:49:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

Not everyone is an independent thinker.

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

I'll have to agree with the pooka. They defend it because it is a belief.

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This a problem. Unfortunately not a problem with religion that can be fixed by abolishing it, but with people in general.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

This is just a symptom of the disease. It's not religion. It's people.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/9/2014 6:53:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others?
Truths like, evidence indicates existence and a lack of evidence indicates non-existence?

You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority
I readily admit that it is a belief. Every issue of non-existence is a belief. I don't believe there are any unicorns because there isn't any evidence for unicorns. I don't believe whales fly because I see no evidence of flying whales (and no, I don't mean with the aid of an aircraft). And this is the same authority you use for everything... EXCEPT your religious beliefs which you hold not for truth, but for pacification.

i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do?
I'm not lying. And this is one of the problems. It is so much a part of what some people are, that they can't seem to grasp that many people aren't like that. I don't lie to myself just because I don't like a particular aspect of reality. And I don't lie in debate. Lying in debate is like faking an orgasm while masturbating. Who do you think you're fooling?

And which theists do you suppose are most motivated to head to this thread and launch a counter-attack; those who know it's not directed at them because they try to be honest, or those who know they lie as a regular part of their debates, and feel that "the finger pointing" is directed specifically at them? You didn't even bother to notice that I spelled out one theist in particular who has been engaging in this combination of evasion and outright lies. And yet, I receive those who tend to be guilty of this behavior en mass. And there are some I don't see here... I haven't seen a single response from any of the theists who have been more honest in the experiences I've had with them.
Welcome to the thread. :)

You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.
The truth is that my beliefs can be substantiated to the same level as any other belief of non-existence, based on a lack of evidence. And yet, you couldn't drive a car, shave your face, enter a room, or ever know if you've left the gas on without such beliefs based on a lack of evidence. Do you smell any gas? No? Isn't that a lack of evidence FOR gas? Grow a little.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable of overcoming your mental illness that drives you to be a complete archetypal TROLL, the ugly ubiquitous followers of Christians stalking Christians on most every internet public religious forum, each of you boring the shite out of us with the same old cliche arguments against theism and the Bible and all that that is so passe as to be a living joke.
If you don't want to seek posts from me, why did you click on my thread to read the O.P. See? Try being honest. You read the thread title, and instantly felt accused, but not because any finger was pointed at you. You weren't even mentioned. You pointed the finger. I just supplied an available accusation for you to hang on that finger. And as I said, I spelled out one specific person, but acknowledged that it is a wide-spread issue. And the first thing out of your mouth was essentially "well, you do it too!". If confession is good for the soul, consider your soul medicated.

The guilty are the fastest to try to answer an accusation not directed specifically to them.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
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11/9/2014 7:18:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 6:49:22 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

Not everyone is an independent thinker.
And if someone doesn't realize their beliefs are untrue, that's not a lie. But that's not what I'm talking about here.

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

I'll have to agree with the pooka. They defend it because it is a belief.
But they defend it to the point of saying things they absolutely know are not true. And they usually mix that in with accusing their opponent of lying.

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This a problem. Unfortunately not a problem with religion that can be fixed by abolishing it, but with people in general.
I would never support the ridiculous idea of abolishing religion. You might be able to quash many of the social aspects. But what a person believes is theirs. You can't take it away from them. But that doesn't make it wrong to try to show them where it fails. The problem is that so many will engage in willful false claims, in the hope of defending what obviously isn't true. And that's my issue here. Someone who looks right at a verse from the Bible and responds, "THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT!" And does it repeatedly, mixed with allegations of lying.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

This is just a symptom of the disease. It's not religion. It's people.
And without people, religion would be.... what?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/9/2014 7:53:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 7:18:05 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/9/2014 6:49:22 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

Not everyone is an independent thinker.
And if someone doesn't realize their beliefs are untrue, that's not a lie. But that's not what I'm talking about here.

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

I'll have to agree with the pooka. They defend it because it is a belief.
But they defend it to the point of saying things they absolutely know are not true. And they usually mix that in with accusing their opponent of lying.

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This a problem. Unfortunately not a problem with religion that can be fixed by abolishing it, but with people in general.
I would never support the ridiculous idea of abolishing religion. You might be able to quash many of the social aspects. But what a person believes is theirs. You can't take it away from them. But that doesn't make it wrong to try to show them where it fails. The problem is that so many will engage in willful false claims, in the hope of defending what obviously isn't true. And that's my issue here. Someone who looks right at a verse from the Bible and responds, "THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY THAT!" And does it repeatedly, mixed with allegations of lying.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

This is just a symptom of the disease. It's not religion. It's people.
And without people, religion would be.... what?

Without people, religion would not exist. Without complex beliefs, people would be no different from apes.

This forum does not adequately represent the reality of the situation or the psychology of its members. It is simply a place where people of all beliefs and mental states come to share ideas and to debate the validity of those ideas. There is nothing special about it. There are thousands more just like this one and they all have the same arguments. The same infectious comments, the same delusions, the same manipulation of truth, the same war.

Beliefs are core to everyone's psyche. When those beliefs are challenged it is completely natural for them to defend them, even it it means they must manipulate the truth. who wants to have an integral part of them ripped out. It is defense and counter defense.

As I said, not everyone is an independent thinker. Not everyone can think objectively. Not everyone can muster an empathetic response. It's frustrating.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/9/2014 9:03:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Acts 17
24: The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
25: nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.
26: And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,
27: that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us,
28: for ..In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, ..For we are indeed his offspring.'
29: Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/10/2014 1:33:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 2:33:36 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/9/2014 2:19:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You obviously don't know what lying is.

Sincerely believing something that is false doesn't constitute lying.

I never said it did. Please show me where I said any such thing. I'm talking about the blatant dishonesty involved in trying to defend the beliefs. For example; challenging someone to provide scripture which makes a particular claim, and then lying and claiming they didn't ever present that scripture even after it has been presented multiple times.

Cool but you never said that in the OP; you were talking about a supposed general phenomena and not a specific phenomena.

And how is it blatant dishonesty simplicter in trying to defend sincerely held beliefs?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/10/2014 1:44:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 1:33:13 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/9/2014 2:33:36 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/9/2014 2:19:45 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
You obviously don't know what lying is.

Sincerely believing something that is false doesn't constitute lying.

I never said it did. Please show me where I said any such thing. I'm talking about the blatant dishonesty involved in trying to defend the beliefs. For example; challenging someone to provide scripture which makes a particular claim, and then lying and claiming they didn't ever present that scripture even after it has been presented multiple times.

Cool but you never said that in the OP; you were talking about a supposed general phenomena and not a specific phenomena.

And how is it blatant dishonesty simplicter in trying to defend sincerely held beliefs?

Some people believe that the Bible is the word of God.
Those people also tend to believe that the Bible contains supreme moral codes.
Those are sincerely held beliefs, but they clash with what we observe to be true.
When you show these people that the Bible promotes slavery, they have a conflict to resolve and there are a number of common responses.
But some will simply respond with "the Bible doesn't say that". So scripture is posted, along with chapter and verse.
When they again respond with "The Bible doesn't say that", that's a blatant lie.

And this is - while being a fabricated example - is a fair parallel to what I've seen a number of times, and a number of times recently.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/10/2014 1:51:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Among the worst and most despicable of religions is the Botchtower, that are commanded to knowingly LIE & knowingly PREACH ERROR despite the fact that they KNOW & ARE FULLY AWARE that they are lying & preaching error, yet agree to do this because their masters at Bethel dictate they must,or else those that refuse face expulsion & shunning!

This fact is confirmed by the Douglas-Walsh Court Transcript, Scotland, 1954.

How they even keep a straight face is beyond me!
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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11/10/2014 1:52:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Atheists never lie.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/10/2014 2:40:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 1:52:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Atheists never lie.

The truth tends to be supported by true statements so we have no need to lie. False claims and beliefs are contrary to the truth, necessitating a continuous string of lies... like claiming people don't know the authors of the books they've read. And the key to religion is to never admit you were wrong... so you don't.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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11/10/2014 3:00:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 2:40:32 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/10/2014 1:52:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Atheists never lie.

The truth tends to be supported by true statements so we have no need to lie. False claims and beliefs are contrary to the truth, necessitating a continuous string of lies... like claiming people don't know the authors of the books they've read. And the key to religion is to never admit you were wrong... so you don't.

So, atheists never lie ... and its not like atheists EVER admit when they are wrong.

And I do love the generalization here, that religious people ALWAYS lie but never atheists.

Perhaps you guys need a mirror.

The bigoted preconceptions just keep flowing, the world will be free of dishonesty if ONLY religion were destroyed.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/10/2014 3:07:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 3:00:16 AM, neutral wrote:
At 11/10/2014 2:40:32 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/10/2014 1:52:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Atheists never lie.

The truth tends to be supported by true statements so we have no need to lie. False claims and beliefs are contrary to the truth, necessitating a continuous string of lies... like claiming people don't know the authors of the books they've read. And the key to religion is to never admit you were wrong... so you don't.

So, atheists never lie ... and its not like atheists EVER admit when they are wrong.
Hey, if you want to promote the idea that atheists never lie, best of luck to you. But they don't have to lie to promote atheism. Theists, on the other hand, have a great deal of trouble being honest and trying to promote stories about talking snakes, studio apartments in whales, and magic metaphysical sperm.

And I do love the generalization here, that religious people ALWAYS lie but never atheists.
It's your generalization so feel free to love it.

Perhaps you guys need a mirror.
No, mirrors reflect light, not lies. if we wanted to lie, we could do better than reflect your lies back at you. But we have no need to lie.

The bigoted preconceptions just keep flowing, the world will be free of dishonesty if ONLY religion were destroyed.
If you have that many crows in your area, try something other than strawmen. They're not working.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
neutral
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11/10/2014 3:39:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 3:07:00 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/10/2014 3:00:16 AM, neutral wrote:
At 11/10/2014 2:40:32 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/10/2014 1:52:34 AM, neutral wrote:
At 11/9/2014 1:22:50 PM, Beastt wrote:
Obvious Belief-based Evasive Dishonesty

I'm sick of this. Those who wish to be treated like adults, should try earning it.

If you were told that the sun was a huge cosmic ball of orange juice and that you had to believe that in order to avoid an infinity of pure torment, how willing would you be to admit that it's actually a ball of hydrogen gas (with small amounts of other elements)?

And how viciously would you defend the lie that it's actually made of orange juice? Would you lie to defend that untruth?

This is why the religious tend to be so prone to dishonesty. It's actually what they're taught. Despite the admonishments to dishonesty ("bearing false witness"), in defending beliefs which are obviously untrue, they resort to lying. And for some reason, this is rarely more obvious than when dealing with the world's most popular religion.

So how beneficial is religion when it insists that you lie - even to yourself? Clinging to what obviously isn't true is lying to yourself. And you can't be honest with others, until you learn to be honest with yourself.

This is what what the behaviors of the religious have inspired.
http://www.goodreads.com...

Atheists never lie.

The truth tends to be supported by true statements so we have no need to lie. False claims and beliefs are contrary to the truth, necessitating a continuous string of lies... like claiming people don't know the authors of the books they've read. And the key to religion is to never admit you were wrong... so you don't.

So, atheists never lie ... and its not like atheists EVER admit when they are wrong.
Hey, if you want to promote the idea that atheists never lie, best of luck to you. But they don't have to lie to promote atheism. Theists, on the other hand, have a great deal of trouble being honest and trying to promote stories about talking snakes, studio apartments in whales, and magic metaphysical sperm.

And I do love the generalization here, that religious people ALWAYS lie but never atheists.
It's your generalization so feel free to love it.

Perhaps you guys need a mirror.
No, mirrors reflect light, not lies. if we wanted to lie, we could do better than reflect your lies back at you. But we have no need to lie.

The bigoted preconceptions just keep flowing, the world will be free of dishonesty if ONLY religion were destroyed.
If you have that many crows in your area, try something other than strawmen. They're not working.

Neither is your argument, which is once again that you are superior because you are atheist.

Lee Strobel?

Christ Myth?

No evidence of God?

Slavery? Genocide?

Demands for apologies for imagined slights?

And of course the constant victim of persecution and strawmanning.

Your entire argument is a fallacious appeal to emotion, and rank generalization.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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11/10/2014 4:20:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others? You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority, i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do? You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable of overcoming your mental illness that drives you to be a complete archetypal TROLL, the ugly ubiquitous followers of Christians stalking Christians on most every internet public religious forum, each of you boring the shite out of us with the same old cliche arguments against theism and the Bible and all that that is so passe as to be a living joke.

lol
Never fart near dog
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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11/10/2014 8:02:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 5:56:37 PM, carriead20 wrote:
At 11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others? You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority, i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do? You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable of overcoming your mental illness that drives you to be a complete archetypal TROLL, the ugly ubiquitous followers of Christians stalking Christians on most every internet public religious forum, each of you boring the shite out of us with the same old cliche arguments against theism and the Bible and all that that is so passe as to be a living joke.

This is exactly why I don't like theists. All they do is attack atheists.

I suggest you take a look at this forum, and see how many atheists are talking about positive atheism rather than attacking religion.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/10/2014 8:52:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/9/2014 5:56:37 PM, carriead20 wrote:
At 11/9/2014 3:46:08 PM, celestialtorahteacher wrote:
Little baby atheist, why not try telling the truth to yourself before pointing fingers at others? You don't tell the truth ever about your belief that there is not God that is only your belief and not ever substantiated by any recognizable authority, i.e. it's only your flapping your gums at us and you get all upset that others are lying too, like you do? You don't tell the truth that your beliefs cannot ever be substantiated, not even science can do that as you should know by now if you weren't lying to yourself everyday in order to come on to these boards and pick on theists with your own set of fantasies, e.g. the ones that think there is no spiritual reality.

I would like to see NO POSTS from you for a week, a month, a year, to see if you are capable of overcoming your mental illness that drives you to be a complete archetypal TROLL, the ugly ubiquitous followers of Christians stalking Christians on most every internet public religious forum, each of you boring the shite out of us with the same old cliche arguments against theism and the Bible and all that that is so passe as to be a living joke.

This is exactly why I don't like theists. All they do is attack atheists.

They attack people because they don't have any answers to the questions they ask. All they have is a false deity named Jesus. The rest of their knowledge is lies that have been used to justify their lack of the knowledge of God to know the past, present delusion we're in and the future age to come.