Total Posts:43|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

A Question for Christians

mrsatan
Posts: 429
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
mrsatan
Posts: 429
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 8:43:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:48:32 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
I would think that anyone who believes that God exists would say objective.

Jesus's teachings would suggest otherwise.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 8:44:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm a Christian, and, yes, I believe morality is objective. I think Benshapiro is mostly right.
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 8:46:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Morality is an illusion ( tree of the knowledge of good and evil ) that will be destroyed by our Creator's program called Eternal Life, the one who designed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to keep His people totally confused by what they see, hear, taste, smell, touch and feel emotionally.
james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 8:59:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 8:46:58 AM, bornofgod wrote:

Morality is an illusion ( tree of the knowledge of good and evil ) that will be destroyed by our Creator's program called Eternal Life, the one who designed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to keep His people totally confused by what they see, hear, taste, smell, touch and feel emotionally.

Seriously? Morality is an illusion? That is what Pantheists, not Christians, believe. Do you not believe some things are "good" and some are "evil"? All through the Bible God condemns certain behaviors and rewards others. More to the point, He calls idolatry and murder "evil" and obedience "good." Your position is unbiblical.
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 9:07:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 8:59:57 AM, james14 wrote:
At 11/10/2014 8:46:58 AM, bornofgod wrote:

Morality is an illusion ( tree of the knowledge of good and evil ) that will be destroyed by our Creator's program called Eternal Life, the one who designed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to keep His people totally confused by what they see, hear, taste, smell, touch and feel emotionally.

Seriously? Morality is an illusion? That is what Pantheists, not Christians, believe. Do you not believe some things are "good" and some are "evil"? All through the Bible God condemns certain behaviors and rewards others. More to the point, He calls idolatry and murder "evil" and obedience "good." Your position is unbiblical.

Will God reward a Christian who worships false deities ( imaginary gods called Jesus and Mother Mary ) and builds false gods ( churches built with human hands ) to worship their deities in, which are totally against the Law of God?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 9:28:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Objective.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 9:30:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am going to use this thread as a plug for a debate I am hosting:

"Assuming God Exists, Objective Morals Exist"

I am Con.

http://www.debate.org...
james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 12:53:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 9:07:01 AM, bornofgod wrote:

Will God reward a Christian who worships false deities ( imaginary gods called Jesus and Mother Mary ) and builds false gods ( churches built with human hands ) to worship their deities in, which are totally against the Law of God?

No. My point exactly. Morality is a framework from which we determine what is right and wrong. The Law of God could be easily called the Moral Law of God, as God forbids what is wrong. To say morality is an illusion is to say that God's law is an illusion.
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 1:03:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 12:53:24 PM, james14 wrote:
At 11/10/2014 9:07:01 AM, bornofgod wrote:

Will God reward a Christian who worships false deities ( imaginary gods called Jesus and Mother Mary ) and builds false gods ( churches built with human hands ) to worship their deities in, which are totally against the Law of God?

No. My point exactly. Morality is a framework from which we determine what is right and wrong. The Law of God could be easily called the Moral Law of God, as God forbids what is wrong. To say morality is an illusion is to say that God's law is an illusion.

You didn't understand what I posted. God could care less about morality because He's the one who made His people immoral to deceive them from knowing who they really are within His thoughts.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is the visible world that man thought was real. The tree of life is the invisible thoughts of God where we were created as characters in His dream. Which tree do you think will be destroyed at the end of this first age?
james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 5:08:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bornofgod, you have some weird theology. Not exactly "Christian." Can you show me any bible verses that support your "dream theory"?
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2014 5:23:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

Objective.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
steffon66
Posts: 240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/11/2014 1:45:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:48:32 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
I would think that anyone who believes that God exists would say objective.

the problem with that is that everyone who believes in god contradicts everyone who believes in god when it comes to morality. so morality cannot be objective and people of faith are retards blind to this and many other truths.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 7:28:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Objective.

Aaarrrg! I hate waiting through those few posts when a new user doesn't yet know about BoG.

But I love when it dawns on the new user for the first time what BoG actually is.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 10:15:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Best not to assume. Personally believe it is objective because there are only two truly valid bases for it:

"You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole being".

And.

"You must love your fellow man as yourself".

Neither of these is completely possible alone, because without the extra wisdom that God provides it is impossible to know whether we are truly showing love to our fellow man or harming them, since we cannot see the end result of our decisions. God can.

On those two commandments, as Jesus said, the whole of the law and prophets hang, thus if you fulfil them you have fulfilled the whole of God's law.
mrsatan
Posts: 429
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 4:10:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 10:15:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Best not to assume.

...I know... That's why I asked...

Personally believe it is objective because there are only two truly valid bases for it:

"You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole being".

I can't love something I've had no experience of. Besides which, what does this have to do with morality?


And.

"You must love your fellow man as yourself".

A sentiment I wish more people would honor, but it is far from objective.

Neither of these is completely possible alone, because without the extra wisdom that God provides it is impossible to know whether we are truly showing love to our fellow man or harming them, since we cannot see the end result of our decisions. God can.

And what wisdom has God provided? The only possibilities I can think of are our consciences and feelings of empathy. Both of which are highly subjective.

On those two commandments, as Jesus said, the whole of the law and prophets hang, thus if you fulfil them you have fulfilled the whole of God's law.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 4:13:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

If "arbitrarily selected by God due to his personal tastes" fits into "objective", then yes, I think all christians will answer objective.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 4:57:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 4:10:12 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 11/12/2014 10:15:22 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Best not to assume.

...I know... That's why I asked...

Personally believe it is objective because there are only two truly valid bases for it:

"You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart, your whole mind and your whole being".

I can't love something I've had no experience of. Besides which, what does this have to do with morality?

However you have experience of God every day in the wonders he has built in the universe, including your own body.

Actually it is more the second command that is directly connected to morality,the first is connected only in that if we love God we will accept his guidance as to the form of morality which does no harm to anyone.


And.

"You must love your fellow man as yourself".

A sentiment I wish more people would honor, but it is far from objective.


What could be more objective?there is no choice as to who our fellow main is, it is every other human being on this planet.

What it is really saying is that just as we would do ourselves no deliberate harm so we should do no harm to others, but actively practice doing good.

That is the entire basis of morality.

Everything God bans does harm to someone somehow, or at the very least threatens to do them harm.

Neither of these is completely possible alone, because without the extra wisdom that God provides it is impossible to know whether we are truly showing love to our fellow man or harming them, since we cannot see the end result of our decisions. God can.

And what wisdom has God provided? The only possibilities I can think of are our consciences and feelings of empathy. Both of which are highly subjective.


God's wisdom is written in his word, and if we accept his guidance he will help us to find it.

However the Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start. As Ghandi said, "If the whole world would put into action the principles embedded in the sermon on the mount there would be no need for armies or police forces".

Interestingly he also said, "I love your Christianity, but I hate Christians".

Why?

He loved Christianity because of the qualities it taught, as in the sermon on the mount, but hated Christians because it was clear to him that so very few even knew what Christianity actually asks of us let alone cared enough to practice it.

In fact it was just such hypocrisy which for some time made me feel that God had abandoned us. However I know better now, but he is searching for those willing to abide by his ways.

On those two commandments, as Jesus said, the whole of the law and prophets hang, thus if you fulfil them you have fulfilled the whole of God's law.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 4:58:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 4:13:17 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

If "arbitrarily selected by God due to his personal tastes" fits into "objective", then yes, I think all christians will answer objective.

Good thing all Christians don't believe that.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 9:23:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

subjective, but the outcomes can be very predictive. Go around asking 100 random people (without asking their religious views) about topics like killing somebody. A majority or 100% is most likely going to say killing is wrong. We determine this based on logic and reasoning. My subjective view on killing is that murdering and killing somebody in your own species is a form of suicide since you decrease a part of your species. Especially in genocide.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 10:15:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 9:23:21 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

subjective, but the outcomes can be very predictive. Go around asking 100 random people (without asking their religious views) about topics like killing somebody. A majority or 100% is most likely going to say killing is wrong. We determine this based on logic and reasoning. My subjective view on killing is that murdering and killing somebody in your own species is a form of suicide since you decrease a part of your species. Especially in genocide.

Many states and nations kill convicted murderers as a way of preserving the species.
MEK
Posts: 253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/12/2014 11:17:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Morality is an interesting construct within the human experience. In order to determine whether or not it is objective or subjective, morality needs to be defined. In general, it is an internal guide that more or less directs us to either establish and or maintain the well being of and avoid the worst possible misery for others.

In this regard, as Sam Harris has written, there are various peaks and valleys to what this looks like but in general most of us ,without definable psychopathy, would agree that there is a spectrum of human experiences we should preserve while there are others we should avoid. In this vane, morality should be objective as we are all the same species with few relative variations based on individual and cultural experiences.

Complex question and very much worth discussing but one should not confuse my words "internal guide" meant as a product of human evolution with that of something divinely given.

That we have a moral framework which allows us to build solidarity with one another (an evolved process established through natural selection) says nothing in support of a supervising, supernatural being. To this latter concept I would argue that there is no evidence or need of such an entity.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/13/2014 4:28:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 4:58:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:13:17 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

If "arbitrarily selected by God due to his personal tastes" fits into "objective", then yes, I think all christians will answer objective.

Good thing all Christians don't believe that.

So would you say morals are not objective because God wants them to be objective? Are they objective regardless of God?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/13/2014 6:22:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/12/2014 10:15:00 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 11/12/2014 9:23:21 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

subjective, but the outcomes can be very predictive. Go around asking 100 random people (without asking their religious views) about topics like killing somebody. A majority or 100% is most likely going to say killing is wrong. We determine this based on logic and reasoning. My subjective view on killing is that murdering and killing somebody in your own species is a form of suicide since you decrease a part of your species. Especially in genocide.

Many states and nations kill convicted murderers as a way of preserving the species.

Unfortunately that is our defect now. I personally am against it and most christians justify self defense like that with eye for an eye.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/13/2014 9:27:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 4:28:15 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:58:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:13:17 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

If "arbitrarily selected by God due to his personal tastes" fits into "objective", then yes, I think all christians will answer objective.

Good thing all Christians don't believe that.

So would you say morals are not objective because God wants them to be objective? Are they objective regardless of God?

The two main theories on offer are divine command theory (protestants) and natural law theory (catholic). Neither entaisl that morality is "arbitarily selected by God due to his personal tastes.

On DCT, God is literally the Form of the Good (in a platonic sense) so he is identical with the good. Moral values (axiology) flow from his being, and moral obligations (deonotolgoy) take the form of his commands. Nothing is arbitrary about about his commands because 1) he is identical to the Good, 2) his commands aren't based on his "personal tatstes".

On Natural Law theory, the type of beings we are objectively determines what sort of things we are obligated to do and what sort of things are good for us. Even God couldn't change that considering he created us as the sort of beings we are.

In short, neither option is like what you said.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/13/2014 9:42:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

Without an agreement, in biblical terms covenant, there is no morality understood. Morality is relative to the agreement and what is stated in the agreement that is between living beings that can agree. Even if its one"s own choices on what one would or should do in a given situation, that can be between one and one"s self. Or holding one"s self to a standard.

Example; the Ten Commandments are relative to the Israelites of the day it was Israeli law and also to the Lord their God. An agreement, as the Lord their God said it was, a covenant. It wasn"t anything to anyone else in the world, nor any other nation in the world, because they didn"t come into agreement with the Almighty as did the Children of Israel did.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/13/2014 2:07:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 9:27:19 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/13/2014 4:28:15 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:58:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:13:17 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

If "arbitrarily selected by God due to his personal tastes" fits into "objective", then yes, I think all christians will answer objective.

Good thing all Christians don't believe that.

So would you say morals are not objective because God wants them to be objective? Are they objective regardless of God?

The two main theories on offer are divine command theory (protestants) and natural law theory (catholic). Neither entaisl that morality is "arbitarily selected by God due to his personal tastes.

On DCT, God is literally the Form of the Good (in a platonic sense) so he is identical with the good. Moral values (axiology) flow from his being, and moral obligations (deonotolgoy) take the form of his commands. Nothing is arbitrary about about his commands because 1) he is identical to the Good, 2) his commands aren't based on his "personal tatstes".

Being "identical to the good" seems like the typical logical absurdity christians resort to when they can not (or don't want to) explain something.


On Natural Law theory, the type of beings we are objectively determines what sort of things we are obligated to do and what sort of things are good for us. Even God couldn't change that considering he created us as the sort of beings we are.

But this would imply we don't need God to be moral, since morality wouldn't be dependant of God (anymore), but dependant of our nature. If we don't need christianity to be God, then suddenly this doctrine loses one of its supposedly most important warhorses.

In short, neither option is like what you said.

On the contrary, God being identical to "the God" is not even a logical concept. God making us moral according to our nature, requires first that God thinks about what would be a "moral nature" and that would effectively be his personal opinion/taste.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 9:25:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 2:07:20 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/13/2014 9:27:19 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/13/2014 4:28:15 AM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:58:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2014 4:13:17 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 11/10/2014 7:38:39 AM, mrsatan wrote:
Do you believe morality is objective or subjective?

I would assume most would say 'objective', but I don't like to assume things.

If "arbitrarily selected by God due to his personal tastes" fits into "objective", then yes, I think all christians will answer objective.

Good thing all Christians don't believe that.

So would you say morals are not objective because God wants them to be objective? Are they objective regardless of God?

The two main theories on offer are divine command theory (protestants) and natural law theory (catholic). Neither entaisl that morality is "arbitarily selected by God due to his personal tastes.

On DCT, God is literally the Form of the Good (in a platonic sense) so he is identical with the good. Moral values (axiology) flow from his being, and moral obligations (deonotolgoy) take the form of his commands. Nothing is arbitrary about about his commands because 1) he is identical to the Good, 2) his commands aren't based on his "personal tatstes".

Being "identical to the good" seems like the typical logical absurdity christians resort to when they can not (or don't want to) explain something.


I bet you aren't going to explain what is "logically absurd" about it. I take it you aren't familiar with platonic philosophy, either.


On Natural Law theory, the type of beings we are objectively determines what sort of things we are obligated to do and what sort of things are good for us. Even God couldn't change that considering he created us as the sort of beings we are.

But this would imply we don't need God to be moral, since morality wouldn't be dependant of God (anymore), but dependant of our nature. If we don't need christianity to be God, then suddenly this doctrine loses one of its supposedly most important warhorses.


Huh? If God created out natures, and all of contigent reality is dependent on God's creative activity, then in an important way we "need" God to be moral. If you are talking about in an epistemological sense, no one claims that you need to beleive in God to do good. No theistic philosopher has ever said that.

In short, neither option is like what you said.

On the contrary, God being identical to "the God" is not even a logical concept. God making us moral according to our nature, requires first that God thinks about what would be a "moral nature" and that would effectively be his personal opinion/taste.

No it doesn't. Again, explain.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 9:36:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 9:25:25 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
If God created out natures, and all of contigent reality is dependent on God's creative activity, then in an important way we "need" God to be moral. If you are talking about in an epistemological sense, no one claims that you need to beleive in God to do good. No theistic philosopher has ever said that.

Now remove the first word and make the same argument.