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Examining christianity.

bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/11/2014 10:04:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

I thought it started with a pregnant virgin.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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11/11/2014 10:15:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Ok, that's news to me-- the DSS narrative, that is. "What you talkin' bout, Willis?"

Seems that is yet another falsehood-- er, "selective truth" I was told in church...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek), and the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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11/11/2014 10:29:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Seriously, though, I would like some documentation on the savior narrative in the Dead Sea Scrolls, please. I am not finding sound documentation of that...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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11/11/2014 10:56:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left),

Osiris (who's second name was not Dionysius, that was a different god) was not nailed to a crucifix, he was cut into thousands of pieces by his brother Set, and then his mother collected them.

who suffered persecution,

Osiris became a great king, he did not suffer persecution, nil paralels with Jesus.

died,

According to the myths he couldn't die, which is why he was cut into a thousand pieces.

and then rose again from the dead.

He actually went back to the underworld (or the dead) and killed his brother Set.

Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

A fish was an early symbol of Christianity. Not sure how this plays into your myth ideas.

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.

and the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/11/2014 11:00:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:56:17 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left),

Osiris (who's second name was not Dionysius, that was a different god) was not nailed to a crucifix, he was cut into thousands of pieces by his brother Set, and then his mother collected them.

who suffered persecution,

Osiris became a great king, he did not suffer persecution, nil paralels with Jesus.

died,

According to the myths he couldn't die, which is why he was cut into a thousand pieces.

and then rose again from the dead.

He actually went back to the underworld (or the dead) and killed his brother Set.

Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

A fish was an early symbol of Christianity. Not sure how this plays into your myth ideas.

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

I'm not saying anything is a myth. I was just adding something to a list of theories regarding Jesus.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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11/11/2014 11:02:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 11:00:03 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:56:17 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left),

Osiris (who's second name was not Dionysius, that was a different god) was not nailed to a crucifix, he was cut into thousands of pieces by his brother Set, and then his mother collected them.

who suffered persecution,

Osiris became a great king, he did not suffer persecution, nil paralels with Jesus.

died,

According to the myths he couldn't die, which is why he was cut into a thousand pieces.

and then rose again from the dead.

He actually went back to the underworld (or the dead) and killed his brother Set.

Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

A fish was an early symbol of Christianity. Not sure how this plays into your myth ideas.

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

I'm not saying anything is a myth. I was just adding something to a list of theories regarding Jesus.

Beastt does the myth thing regularly and I assumed you were adding to him.

I just wanted to set the record straight about the myths of that time since I'm studying them atm.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...
- "has been depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th; performing miracles such as changing water into wine; appearing surrounded by or one of 12 figures; bearing epithets such as "Father" and "Savior"; dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven."

I can't vouch for the credibility of the site, but the claim in regard to Dionysus is not at all uncommon.

and the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods, and left no historical record.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
MEK
Posts: 253
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11/11/2014 2:05:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...
- "has been depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th; performing miracles such as changing water into wine; appearing surrounded by or one of 12 figures; bearing epithets such as "Father" and "Savior"; dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven."

I can't vouch for the credibility of the site, but the claim in regard to Dionysus is not at all uncommon.

and the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods, and left no historical record.

I have started studying just this topic recently and have found a few academic historians who focus on ancient history and religion. I had always taken for granted that Christ was probably a real man who lived at the time dictated by the bible who was very charismatic and influential (minus the miracles). I have; however, recently formed the opinion that Christ may not have existed at all - at least not as the bible depicts.
Based on some early research, there may have been a Jewish fanatic running about during the time of Christ's alleged presence but the historicity of Christ as written is pretty thin. (I suggest looking at the research of Richard Carrier or Hector Avalos if interested.)
I think this is an important area of discussion because if more research shows Christ is more myth than man, what then will the christian apologists use as evidence for their belief system?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/11/2014 2:55:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 2:05:04 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...
- "has been depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th; performing miracles such as changing water into wine; appearing surrounded by or one of 12 figures; bearing epithets such as "Father" and "Savior"; dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven."

I can't vouch for the credibility of the site, but the claim in regard to Dionysus is not at all uncommon.

and the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods, and left no historical record.

I have started studying just this topic recently and have found a few academic historians who focus on ancient history and religion. I had always taken for granted that Christ was probably a real man who lived at the time dictated by the bible who was very charismatic and influential (minus the miracles). I have; however, recently formed the opinion that Christ may not have existed at all - at least not as the bible depicts.
Based on some early research, there may have been a Jewish fanatic running about during the time of Christ's alleged presence but the historicity of Christ as written is pretty thin. (I suggest looking at the research of Richard Carrier or Hector Avalos if interested.)
I think this is an important area of discussion because if more research shows Christ is more myth than man, what then will the christian apologists use as evidence for their belief system?

Like you, I once assumed Jesus to be an actual influential and charismatic individual who likely preached some pretty decent values. But having done more research in this area, I've also come to believe that Jesus is a myth. I own...

"Did Jesus Exist?" - G. A. Wells
"Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth" - Bart Ehrman
"Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth" - Richard Carrier, Robert Price, Frank Zindler
"Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All" - David Fitzgerald
"Jesus Christ: A Pagan Myth" - Laurence E Daulton
"Deconstructing Jesus" Robert M Price
"Pagan Christs" - John M Roberts
"There Was No Jesus, There Is No God" - Raphael Lataster

... and I agree with your conclusion. Jesus is most likely a myth. There simply is no historical Jesus.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
MEK
Posts: 253
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11/11/2014 4:01:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 2:55:17 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 2:05:04 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...
- "has been depicted as having been born of a virgin mother on December 25th; performing miracles such as changing water into wine; appearing surrounded by or one of 12 figures; bearing epithets such as "Father" and "Savior"; dying; resurrecting after three days; and ascending into heaven."

I can't vouch for the credibility of the site, but the claim in regard to Dionysus is not at all uncommon.

and the miracle of turning water into wine at a wedding.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods, and left no historical record.

I have started studying just this topic recently and have found a few academic historians who focus on ancient history and religion. I had always taken for granted that Christ was probably a real man who lived at the time dictated by the bible who was very charismatic and influential (minus the miracles). I have; however, recently formed the opinion that Christ may not have existed at all - at least not as the bible depicts.
Based on some early research, there may have been a Jewish fanatic running about during the time of Christ's alleged presence but the historicity of Christ as written is pretty thin. (I suggest looking at the research of Richard Carrier or Hector Avalos if interested.)
I think this is an important area of discussion because if more research shows Christ is more myth than man, what then will the christian apologists use as evidence for their belief system?

Like you, I once assumed Jesus to be an actual influential and charismatic individual who likely preached some pretty decent values. But having done more research in this area, I've also come to believe that Jesus is a myth. I own...

"Did Jesus Exist?" - G. A. Wells
"Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth" - Bart Ehrman
"Bart Ehrman and the Quest of the Historical Jesus of Nazareth" - Richard Carrier, Robert Price, Frank Zindler
"Nailed: Ten Christian Myths That Show Jesus Never Existed at All" - David Fitzgerald
"Jesus Christ: A Pagan Myth" - Laurence E Daulton
"Deconstructing Jesus" Robert M Price
"Pagan Christs" - John M Roberts
"There Was No Jesus, There Is No God" - Raphael Lataster

... and I agree with your conclusion. Jesus is most likely a myth. There simply is no historical Jesus.

I have read about 3 of the above. Thanks for the other suggestions.
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...

Yeah, truthbeknown rehashes zeitgeist bs, not a good source.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods,

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.

The reason people assumed that back in the day was the influence of fascism and nazism in Europe, where most studies of the historical Jesus were done. So they came up with all these paralels of Jesus with pagan Gods to create an aryan Jesus rather than a Jewish Jesus.

You're relying on biased pseudo-history in order to lash out at Christianity.

and left no historical record.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/11/2014 8:22:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...

Yeah, truthbeknown rehashes zeitgeist bs, not a good source.
And yet you believe the Bible! Amazing

This doesn't mention the 'water into wine' miracle but the parallels are unmistakeable (to all but a Christian).
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

Also, notice how because some things in "Zeitgeist" are BS, then ALL things in Zeitgeist are BS. Yet when some things in the Bible are quite obviously BS, the Bible is God-breathed truth.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods,

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.
That's not true at all. Contemporary "SCHOLARSHIP" completely supports it. What doesn't support it is historical tradition.

The reason people assumed that back in the day was the influence of fascism and nazism in Europe, where most studies of the historical Jesus were done. So they came up with all these paralels of Jesus with pagan Gods to create an aryan Jesus rather than a Jewish Jesus.
Just made them all up, did they? Of course we have writings which predate that period by centuries which support those statements.

You're relying on biased pseudo-history in order to lash out at Christianity.
No, YOU are relying on biblical history in order to deny actual history. History DOES NOT support the actual existence of Jesus.

and left no historical record.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.
Do you know when Jesus was said to have died? (Hint: 30 - 33CE). Do you know when Josephus was born? (Hint 37CE). Do you know how many historical records Josephus left us from his first 10-years of life? (Hint: NONE). So the information found in the writings of Josephus are hearsay. That's all they are. They provide no indication of verification. It's a combination of two things. Common hearsay as recorded by Josephus, and Christian interpolation to his work, such as the "golden paragraph". Here we have an entire paragraph on Jesus, how he was the performer of "wonderous works", how it's probably inaccurate to call him a "man" and even how it WAS/IS the "messiah". And yet, this is found in the TRANSLATED works of a life-long religious Jew! (And religious Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.) And who translated these works? The same dishonest Christian mouthpiece who wrote a glowing eulogy for Emperor Constantine, even after Constantine had his own wife and son killed - Bishop Eusebius. And none of these comments are even mentioned or referenced in Christian writings, until after they were translated and interpolated. And where do we find this "golden paragraph", smack dab in the middle of a running commentary on the persecution of the Jews. Seems a likely place to stick a claim that the Jews had God executed, right?

There is not a single contemporaneous writing about Jesus. No one seems to have written anything about him during the time he was supposed to have been wowing the Roman/Jewish/Egyptian realm with his fantastic knowledge, miracles and teachings. Yet not a single historian (and we know of at least 66 historians from that time and region), found anything any such wandering teacher was doing, to be the least bit notable. Meanwhile, the Bible has the "multitudes" of Jerusalem turning out to greet this God-in-the flesh, as he came humbly to the city atop a donkey (two donkeys if you read "Matthew'").

And yet... "Zeitgeist" is all B.S. YES, "some" of the information in "Zeitgeist" is absolute baloney. But if we dismiss all of it because some of it is bad, then toss your Bible on the fire.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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11/11/2014 8:31:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:22:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...

Yeah, truthbeknown rehashes zeitgeist bs, not a good source.
And yet you believe the Bible! Amazing

This doesn't mention the 'water into wine' miracle but the parallels are unmistakeable (to all but a Christian).
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

Also, notice how because some things in "Zeitgeist" are BS, then ALL things in Zeitgeist are BS. Yet when some things in the Bible are quite obviously BS, the Bible is God-breathed truth.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods,

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.
That's not true at all. Contemporary "SCHOLARSHIP" completely supports it. What doesn't support it is historical tradition.

The reason people assumed that back in the day was the influence of fascism and nazism in Europe, where most studies of the historical Jesus were done. So they came up with all these paralels of Jesus with pagan Gods to create an aryan Jesus rather than a Jewish Jesus.
Just made them all up, did they? Of course we have writings which predate that period by centuries which support those statements.

You're relying on biased pseudo-history in order to lash out at Christianity.
No, YOU are relying on biblical history in order to deny actual history. History DOES NOT support the actual existence of Jesus.

and left no historical record.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.
Do you know when Jesus was said to have died? (Hint: 30 - 33CE). Do you know when Josephus was born? (Hint 37CE). Do you know how many historical records Josephus left us from his first 10-years of life? (Hint: NONE). So the information found in the writings of Josephus are hearsay. That's all they are. They provide no indication of verification. It's a combination of two things. Common hearsay as recorded by Josephus, and Christian interpolation to his work, such as the "golden paragraph". Here we have an entire paragraph on Jesus, how he was the performer of "wonderous works", how it's probably inaccurate to call him a "man" and even how it WAS/IS the "messiah". And yet, this is found in the TRANSLATED works of a life-long religious Jew! (And religious Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.) And who translated these works? The same dishonest Christian mouthpiece who wrote a glowing eulogy for Emperor Constantine, even after Constantine had his own wife and son killed - Bishop Eusebius. And none of these comments are even mentioned or referenced in Christian writings, until after they were translated and interpolated. And where do we find this "golden paragraph", smack dab in the middle of a running commentary on the persecution of the Jews. Seems a likely place to stick a claim that the Jews had God executed, right?

There is not a single contemporaneous writing about Jesus. No one seems to have written anything about him during the time he was supposed to have been wowing the Roman/Jewish/Egyptian realm with his fantastic knowledge, miracles and teachings. Yet not a single historian (and we know of at least 66 historians from that time and region), found anything any such wandering teacher was doing, to be the least bit notable. Meanwhile, the Bible has the "multitudes" of Jerusalem turning out to greet this God-in-the flesh, as he came humbly to the city atop a donkey (two donkeys if you read "Matthew'").

And yet... "Zeitgeist" is all B.S. YES, "some" of the information in "Zeitgeist" is absolute baloney. But if we dismiss all of it because some of it is bad, then toss your Bible on the fire.

Zeitgeist plays real fast and loose with the mythological figures of old. In some instances, they draw really good parallels, in other instances, not so much. That variety of contribution does make everything there after suspect, considering the percentage of 'good' to 'not so good'.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/11/2014 8:37:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:31:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:22:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...

Yeah, truthbeknown rehashes zeitgeist bs, not a good source.
And yet you believe the Bible! Amazing

This doesn't mention the 'water into wine' miracle but the parallels are unmistakeable (to all but a Christian).
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

Also, notice how because some things in "Zeitgeist" are BS, then ALL things in Zeitgeist are BS. Yet when some things in the Bible are quite obviously BS, the Bible is God-breathed truth.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods,

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.
That's not true at all. Contemporary "SCHOLARSHIP" completely supports it. What doesn't support it is historical tradition.

The reason people assumed that back in the day was the influence of fascism and nazism in Europe, where most studies of the historical Jesus were done. So they came up with all these paralels of Jesus with pagan Gods to create an aryan Jesus rather than a Jewish Jesus.
Just made them all up, did they? Of course we have writings which predate that period by centuries which support those statements.

You're relying on biased pseudo-history in order to lash out at Christianity.
No, YOU are relying on biblical history in order to deny actual history. History DOES NOT support the actual existence of Jesus.

and left no historical record.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.
Do you know when Jesus was said to have died? (Hint: 30 - 33CE). Do you know when Josephus was born? (Hint 37CE). Do you know how many historical records Josephus left us from his first 10-years of life? (Hint: NONE). So the information found in the writings of Josephus are hearsay. That's all they are. They provide no indication of verification. It's a combination of two things. Common hearsay as recorded by Josephus, and Christian interpolation to his work, such as the "golden paragraph". Here we have an entire paragraph on Jesus, how he was the performer of "wonderous works", how it's probably inaccurate to call him a "man" and even how it WAS/IS the "messiah". And yet, this is found in the TRANSLATED works of a life-long religious Jew! (And religious Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.) And who translated these works? The same dishonest Christian mouthpiece who wrote a glowing eulogy for Emperor Constantine, even after Constantine had his own wife and son killed - Bishop Eusebius. And none of these comments are even mentioned or referenced in Christian writings, until after they were translated and interpolated. And where do we find this "golden paragraph", smack dab in the middle of a running commentary on the persecution of the Jews. Seems a likely place to stick a claim that the Jews had God executed, right?

There is not a single contemporaneous writing about Jesus. No one seems to have written anything about him during the time he was supposed to have been wowing the Roman/Jewish/Egyptian realm with his fantastic knowledge, miracles and teachings. Yet not a single historian (and we know of at least 66 historians from that time and region), found anything any such wandering teacher was doing, to be the least bit notable. Meanwhile, the Bible has the "multitudes" of Jerusalem turning out to greet this God-in-the flesh, as he came humbly to the city atop a donkey (two donkeys if you read "Matthew'").

And yet... "Zeitgeist" is all B.S. YES, "some" of the information in "Zeitgeist" is absolute baloney. But if we dismiss all of it because some of it is bad, then toss your Bible on the fire.

Zeitgeist plays real fast and loose with the mythological figures of old. In some instances, they draw really good parallels, in other instances, not so much. That variety of contribution does make everything there after suspect, considering the percentage of 'good' to 'not so good'.

I grasp that completely. In fact Richard Carrier lashes out at "Zeitgeist" in some of his lectures; pointing out that the misinformation it provides is a major source of irritation for him in trying to separate what is true from what isn't in the minds of people who want the truth. But that doesn't change the fact that "Zeitgeist" does contain some very valid information and shouldn't be tossed out in one big chunk - especially not by someone who reads about zombies, unicorns, witches, wizards, sea monsters and dragons in the Bible, and still insists that it's "God's word".
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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11/11/2014 8:52:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 8:37:15 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:31:57 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/11/2014 8:22:02 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 12:04:10 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:57:59 AM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:23:23 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:19:51 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:10:45 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

Let's not forget the Jesus-like story found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, which dated to 250BCE - 100BCE. It would seem that Jesus has been popping up for over 2,200 years and last died in a fire in Texas.

Oh, and this: "In the Greco-Roman world, from where Christianity later flourished, the most dominant cult (1000 BC) of a savior nailed upon a crucifix was that also of the pagan fertility god"Osiris-Dionysus(left), who suffered persecution, died, and then rose again from the dead. Only was it until the late 5th century that genuine portrayals of"Jesus"on a crucifix were found, as before this time however, artifacts had all but depicted"Jesus"as the fish, or as the shepherd, but never on a Cross."

There's a picture on the site: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Dionysus; from whom we get the concept of sacrifice for the salvation of others (pharmokos, in ancient Greek),

I'm pretty sure that was never mentioned in the myth of dionysius. I bet there are zero writings that actually say that.
I'll agree that there is a lot of controversy regarding the parallels between Jesus and many of the pagan gods. However, it seems that as we go back toward some of the earliest Christian apologists, the less we see denials for these parallels. And the more we work toward the present day, the more we find arguments against these parallels. Some of the notable events in the interim involve Christian writers translating manuscripts, burning various works, and introducing forgeries into writings which expose flaws and provide doubt for Christianity.

http://www.truthbeknown.com...

Yeah, truthbeknown rehashes zeitgeist bs, not a good source.
And yet you believe the Bible! Amazing

This doesn't mention the 'water into wine' miracle but the parallels are unmistakeable (to all but a Christian).
http://www.religioustolerance.org...

Also, notice how because some things in "Zeitgeist" are BS, then ALL things in Zeitgeist are BS. Yet when some things in the Bible are quite obviously BS, the Bible is God-breathed truth.

Well, he was the Greek God of wine, not sure how that means Jesus must have been modelled after him.
Of course you're not. You believe Jesus was the original. And yet, he copied the miracles of various pagan gods,

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.
That's not true at all. Contemporary "SCHOLARSHIP" completely supports it. What doesn't support it is historical tradition.

The reason people assumed that back in the day was the influence of fascism and nazism in Europe, where most studies of the historical Jesus were done. So they came up with all these paralels of Jesus with pagan Gods to create an aryan Jesus rather than a Jewish Jesus.
Just made them all up, did they? Of course we have writings which predate that period by centuries which support those statements.

You're relying on biased pseudo-history in order to lash out at Christianity.
No, YOU are relying on biblical history in order to deny actual history. History DOES NOT support the actual existence of Jesus.

and left no historical record.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.
Do you know when Jesus was said to have died? (Hint: 30 - 33CE). Do you know when Josephus was born? (Hint 37CE). Do you know how many historical records Josephus left us from his first 10-years of life? (Hint: NONE). So the information found in the writings of Josephus are hearsay. That's all they are. They provide no indication of verification. It's a combination of two things. Common hearsay as recorded by Josephus, and Christian interpolation to his work, such as the "golden paragraph". Here we have an entire paragraph on Jesus, how he was the performer of "wonderous works", how it's probably inaccurate to call him a "man" and even how it WAS/IS the "messiah". And yet, this is found in the TRANSLATED works of a life-long religious Jew! (And religious Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah.) And who translated these works? The same dishonest Christian mouthpiece who wrote a glowing eulogy for Emperor Constantine, even after Constantine had his own wife and son killed - Bishop Eusebius. And none of these comments are even mentioned or referenced in Christian writings, until after they were translated and interpolated. And where do we find this "golden paragraph", smack dab in the middle of a running commentary on the persecution of the Jews. Seems a likely place to stick a claim that the Jews had God executed, right?

There is not a single contemporaneous writing about Jesus. No one seems to have written anything about him during the time he was supposed to have been wowing the Roman/Jewish/Egyptian realm with his fantastic knowledge, miracles and teachings. Yet not a single historian (and we know of at least 66 historians from that time and region), found anything any such wandering teacher was doing, to be the least bit notable. Meanwhile, the Bible has the "multitudes" of Jerusalem turning out to greet this God-in-the flesh, as he came humbly to the city atop a donkey (two donkeys if you read "Matthew'").

And yet... "Zeitgeist" is all B.S. YES, "some" of the information in "Zeitgeist" is absolute baloney. But if we dismiss all of it because some of it is bad, then toss your Bible on the fire.

Zeitgeist plays real fast and loose with the mythological figures of old. In some instances, they draw really good parallels, in other instances, not so much. That variety of contribution does make everything there after suspect, considering the percentage of 'good' to 'not so good'.

I grasp that completely. In fact Richard Carrier lashes out at "Zeitgeist" in some of his lectures; pointing out that the misinformation it provides is a major source of irritation for him in trying to separate what is true from what isn't in the minds of people who want the truth. But that doesn't change the fact that "Zeitgeist" does contain some very valid information and shouldn't be tossed out in one big chunk - especially not by someone who reads about zombies, unicorns, witches, wizards, sea monsters and dragons in the Bible, and still insists that it's "God's word".

Touche.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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MEK
Posts: 253
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11/11/2014 9:12:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM, IEnglishman wrote:

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.

To what contemporary scholarship are you referring? Are we talking christian scholars or secular or both? I'm curious.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.

Although there is some reference to Josephus, Jesus is never mentioned in any Greek or Roman, non-Christian sources until approx 80 years after his alleged death - never mentioned and no records that he lived.
The Epistles of Paul (where Jesus is first mentioned) Jesus is referred to as a "celestial" being and not on this planet. In 2 Corinthians he is referred to a celestial image of God. Paul's letters (Gal 1) states "the gospel I preached I did receive" and indicates any reference to Jesus came from revelation - not from a 1st person account.

It is speculated that the early Authors of the bible Euhemorized Jesus, placing him on the earth to sell the stories as truth.

So, if you are going to try and use historical evidence to support any serious position that Jesus is who the bible says he is - you have a LONG way to go....
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/11/2014 9:19:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 9:12:22 PM, MEK wrote:
At 11/11/2014 4:36:31 PM, IEnglishman wrote:

Most contemporary scholarship completely blows that out the water.

To what contemporary scholarship are you referring? Are we talking christian scholars or secular or both? I'm curious.

Josephus is widely accepted to have written passages on him in "Antiquities" and was a contemporary of Jesus according to how "contemporary" is defined in ancient history.


Although there is some reference to Josephus, Jesus is never mentioned in any Greek or Roman, non-Christian sources until approx 80 years after his alleged death - never mentioned and no records that he lived.
The Epistles of Paul (where Jesus is first mentioned) Jesus is referred to as a "celestial" being and not on this planet. In 2 Corinthians he is referred to a celestial image of God. Paul's letters (Gal 1) states "the gospel I preached I did receive" and indicates any reference to Jesus came from revelation - not from a 1st person account.

It is speculated that the early Authors of the bible Euhemorized Jesus, placing him on the earth to sell the stories as truth.

So, if you are going to try and use historical evidence to support any serious position that Jesus is who the bible says he is - you have a LONG way to go....

Fatal to xtianity -

ALL CLAIMS OF JESUS DERIVE FROM HEARSAY ACCOUNTS


No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, I will use the information and dates to show that even if these sources did not come from interpolations, they could still not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness' own knowledge. (Source: http://nobeliefs.com...)

&

In the final analysis there is no evidence that the biblical character called "Jesus Christ" ever existed. As Nicholas Carter concludes in The Christ Myth: "No sculptures, no drawings, no markings in stone, nothing written in his own hand; and no letters, no commentaries, indeed no authentic documents written by his Jewish and Gentile contemporaries, Justice of Tiberius, Philo, Josephus, Seneca, Petronius Arbiter, Pliny the Elder, et al., to lend credence to his historicity." (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)
Composer
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11/11/2014 9:29:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:04:21 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

I thought it started with a pregnant virgin.
According to Johnny Come Lately trinitarian ideology, Story book Mary was Spiritually Raped by at least the approval of her own pre-existent son person, if not worse, when it was apparently we are told, a co-equal trinitarian god person!
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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11/11/2014 10:17:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:04:21 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

I thought it started with a pregnant virgin.

I bet she was married to a bachelor.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/11/2014 10:20:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 9:29:24 PM, Composer wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:04:21 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

I thought it started with a pregnant virgin.
According to Johnny Come Lately trinitarian ideology, Story book Mary was Spiritually Raped by at least the approval of her own pre-existent son person, if not worse, when it was apparently we are told, a co-equal trinitarian god person!

Freaky "love".
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/11/2014 10:39:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/11/2014 10:17:46 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/11/2014 10:04:21 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/11/2014 9:59:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
Allegedly it all started with a fella called jesus in about "0" bc/ad.
Cept some folks claim that it only happened 'bout 300yrs or so later.
Then there's that claim that it only happened couple'a hundred years ago with ole Luther an' co changed it.

Is there any christians who can clarify this for us?

I thought it started with a pregnant virgin.

I bet she was married to a bachelor.

It was a brilliantly dull relationship.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."