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The Torah is God's wisdom

Truth_seeker
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11/13/2014 11:39:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
When we think of "The Law" we typically think of the rules and regulations established by God on Mount Sinai. However in Hebrew, the word "Torah" is translated as instruction and from the ancient pictographs and understanding, it should be understood as a set of wise instructions given by a father to his son. The word "Mitzvah" or commandments should also be understood not as God giving us orders but from the ancient Hebrew pictographs, it means guidance in the way that we should go.
DPMartin
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11/13/2014 11:55:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 11:39:21 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
When we think of "The Law" we typically think of the rules and regulations established by God on Mount Sinai. However in Hebrew, the word "Torah" is translated as instruction and from the ancient pictographs and understanding, it should be understood as a set of wise instructions given by a father to his son. The word "Mitzvah" or commandments should also be understood not as God giving us orders but from the ancient Hebrew pictographs, it means guidance in the way that we should go.

Though you are correct, I believe it"s also God"s wisdom to let that be. As in the Torah is perceived as a law for the condemnation. It"s instruction to the believer who trusts the Lord their God, and it is destruction to those who hate the Lord God. Some of the atheists here attest to that when they complain of the Torah"s influence in society and law making, that prevents them from doing as they please.

Along the same lines as:
Mt:21:44: And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Considering that in the Christian view, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah, in the Son of man.

Its a natural thing for that which is of the Lord God to separate that which is Light from darkness.
Truth_seeker
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11/13/2014 12:07:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 11:55:17 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/13/2014 11:39:21 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
When we think of "The Law" we typically think of the rules and regulations established by God on Mount Sinai. However in Hebrew, the word "Torah" is translated as instruction and from the ancient pictographs and understanding, it should be understood as a set of wise instructions given by a father to his son. The word "Mitzvah" or commandments should also be understood not as God giving us orders but from the ancient Hebrew pictographs, it means guidance in the way that we should go.


Though you are correct, I believe it"s also God"s wisdom to let that be. As in the Torah is perceived as a law for the condemnation. It"s instruction to the believer who trusts the Lord their God, and it is destruction to those who hate the Lord God. Some of the atheists here attest to that when they complain of the Torah"s influence in society and law making, that prevents them from doing as they please.

Along the same lines as:
Mt:21:44: And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Considering that in the Christian view, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah, in the Son of man.

Its a natural thing for that which is of the Lord God to separate that which is Light from darkness.

Very true and for the atheist, they do not believe that God exists because they hate the Torah and living in righteousness. The Torah itself is holy and was a way of light for all men because it's precepts were good however Christ fulfilled it and is the wisdom of God. However the world will be judged by whether or not they trusted in Jesus.
DPMartin
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11/13/2014 12:46:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 12:07:27 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
At 11/13/2014 11:55:17 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/13/2014 11:39:21 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
When we think of "The Law" we typically think of the rules and regulations established by God on Mount Sinai. However in Hebrew, the word "Torah" is translated as instruction and from the ancient pictographs and understanding, it should be understood as a set of wise instructions given by a father to his son. The word "Mitzvah" or commandments should also be understood not as God giving us orders but from the ancient Hebrew pictographs, it means guidance in the way that we should go.


Though you are correct, I believe it"s also God"s wisdom to let that be. As in the Torah is perceived as a law for the condemnation. It"s instruction to the believer who trusts the Lord their God, and it is destruction to those who hate the Lord God. Some of the atheists here attest to that when they complain of the Torah"s influence in society and law making, that prevents them from doing as they please.

Along the same lines as:
Mt:21:44: And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Considering that in the Christian view, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Torah, in the Son of man.

Its a natural thing for that which is of the Lord God to separate that which is Light from darkness.

Very true and for the atheist, they do not believe that God exists because they hate the Torah and living in righteousness. The Torah itself is holy and was a way of light for all men because it's precepts were good however Christ fulfilled it and is the wisdom of God. However the world will be judged by whether or not they trusted in Jesus.

I understand, but:

Mt:7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The wisdom of God is to make one receive according to one"s own judgement. And if that judgement is to concede or submit or agree that it is God"s judgement that is good and not one"s own. And that one seeks God"s Mercy for not only one"s self but others, no matter their doings. Then God"s Mercy is God"s Judgement of you, no matter your doings. And that is righteous because it is only God"s doings that are of value in the Kingdom of God.

Also Jesus gave the Pharisees grief on another concept of the law (Torah):

Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And how is there mercy and faith in the instruction of the Torah, if it"s all about condemnation, as those who us it as such? Though this is a bit off subject, one thing I like abut the verse Mt:23:23 is Jesus describes His ministry or work to a tee in this. By demonstrating again and again that God"s Judgement is Mercy to those He sees the in Him Faith in.
DPMartin
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11/13/2014 12:50:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That is supposed to say

God"s Judgement is Mercy to those He sees the Faith in Him, in. (Meaning Jesus sees the faith)
Truth_seeker
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11/13/2014 1:19:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I understand, but:

Mt:7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The wisdom of God is to make one receive according to one"s own judgement. And if that judgement is to concede or submit or agree that it is God"s judgement that is good and not one"s own. And that one seeks God"s Mercy for not only one"s self but others, no matter their doings. Then God"s Mercy is God"s Judgement of you, no matter your doings. And that is righteous because it is only God"s doings that are of value in the Kingdom of God.
Very good point, evil will be repaid with evil and good with good. You took the words out of my mouth ahaha. God's mercy is not for ones own self but as a way of demonstrating God's mercy towards others. The righteous are the ones who are concerned about the souls of others.
Also Jesus gave the Pharisees grief on another concept of the law (Torah):

Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And how is there mercy and faith in the instruction of the Torah, if it"s all about condemnation, as those who us it as such? Though this is a bit off subject, one thing I like abut the verse Mt:23:23 is Jesus describes His ministry or work to a tee in this. By demonstrating again and again that God"s Judgement is Mercy to those He sees the in Him Faith in.

Very good, see those who have faith in God are already made righteous and are therefore wise by his standards. The Pharisees were hypocrites because they want to cover up their self-righteousness but neglect faith in Jesus. He explains it very well in John 10.
DPMartin
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11/13/2014 2:59:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 1:19:11 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
I understand, but:

Mt:7:1: Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

The wisdom of God is to make one receive according to one"s own judgement. And if that judgement is to concede or submit or agree that it is God"s judgement that is good and not one"s own. And that one seeks God"s Mercy for not only one"s self but others, no matter their doings. Then God"s Mercy is God"s Judgement of you, no matter your doings. And that is righteous because it is only God"s doings that are of value in the Kingdom of God.
Very good point, evil will be repaid with evil and good with good. You took the words out of my mouth ahaha. God's mercy is not for ones own self but as a way of demonstrating God's mercy towards others. The righteous are the ones who are concerned about the souls of others.
Also Jesus gave the Pharisees grief on another concept of the law (Torah):

Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And how is there mercy and faith in the instruction of the Torah, if it"s all about condemnation, as those who us it as such? Though this is a bit off subject, one thing I like abut the verse Mt:23:23 is Jesus describes His ministry or work to a tee in this. By demonstrating again and again that God"s Judgement is Mercy to those He sees the in Him Faith in.

Very good, see those who have faith in God are already made righteous and are therefore wise by his standards. The Pharisees were hypocrites because they want to cover up their self-righteousness but neglect faith in Jesus. He explains it very well in John 10.

To get back to the state of the non-believer or atheist in this case, if one isn"t in faith in Christ that God would account as righteousness, (again God"s Judgement is Mercy to Faith placed on His Son Jesus). Then one is in his own faith in one"s own self-righteousness declaring in his own heart that his own judgement is correct and is what to be trusted, hence what he perceives as good according to his own judgement. So case in point, no Faith in Christ, no righteousness of God to walk in. Doesn"t matter who, or what. And to be clear, Abraham's hope was in the Christ to come. I do believe Jesus said something to that effect.

As you can see throughout this religion section of the web site there are many atheists claiming that the God of Israel isn"t good for a host of reasons. He did this and that, that wasn"t fair or nice in their own judgement. The problem being their own judgement. And yes, that which is against the fulfillment of God"s Word according to the will of God has no claim in the Kingdom nor in this world, other than what they can posses physically for a little while. Hence they are self-righteous, and are correct about what they think, but what they think is incorrect. Because it is Christ that Justifies, and the only true thing that is justified in the universe of it"s own, is the Presence of God and that which He has the right to decide to remain present with Him in His creation.
Truth_seeker
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11/13/2014 3:29:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

To get back to the state of the non-believer or atheist in this case, if one isn"t in faith in Christ that God would account as righteousness, (again God"s Judgement is Mercy to Faith placed on His Son Jesus). Then one is in his own faith in one"s own self-righteousness declaring in his own heart that his own judgement is correct and is what to be trusted, hence what he perceives as good according to his own judgement. So case in point, no Faith in Christ, no righteousness of God to walk in. Doesn"t matter who, or what. And to be clear, Abraham's hope was in the Christ to come. I do believe Jesus said something to that effect.
Very true, in Hebrew the word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In other words, we are condemned because our righteousness simply isn't perfect. I also believe that Abraham's hope was in Christ to come. He condemned the Pharisees because if they truly were the sons of God, they would have faith in him as Abraham did.
As you can see throughout this religion section of the web site there are many atheists claiming that the God of Israel isn"t good for a host of reasons. He did this and that, that wasn"t fair or nice in their own judgement. The problem being their own judgement. And yes, that which is against the fulfillment of God"s Word according to the will of God has no claim in the Kingdom nor in this world, other than what they can posses physically for a little while. Hence they are self-righteous, and are correct about what they think, but what they think is incorrect. Because it is Christ that Justifies, and the only true thing that is justified in the universe of it"s own, is the Presence of God and that which He has the right to decide to remain present with Him in His creation.

Impressively put together aha! God's justice and mercy is shown to all men through Jesus. They hate Jesus because they refuse to live in obedience to faith in God the father and recognize his judgement of their wickedness. They hate who God is and make themselves his enemies. They recognize that Jesus is the one who is the measure of whether they will receive judgement or eternal life.
DPMartin
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11/13/2014 4:24:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 3:29:27 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:

To get back to the state of the non-believer or atheist in this case, if one isn"t in faith in Christ that God would account as righteousness, (again God"s Judgement is Mercy to Faith placed on His Son Jesus). Then one is in his own faith in one"s own self-righteousness declaring in his own heart that his own judgement is correct and is what to be trusted, hence what he perceives as good according to his own judgement. So case in point, no Faith in Christ, no righteousness of God to walk in. Doesn"t matter who, or what. And to be clear, Abraham's hope was in the Christ to come. I do believe Jesus said something to that effect.
Very true, in Hebrew the word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In other words, we are condemned because our righteousness simply isn't perfect. I also believe that Abraham's hope was in Christ to come. He condemned the Pharisees because if they truly were the sons of God, they would have faith in him as Abraham did.
As you can see throughout this religion section of the web site there are many atheists claiming that the God of Israel isn"t good for a host of reasons. He did this and that, that wasn"t fair or nice in their own judgement. The problem being their own judgement. And yes, that which is against the fulfillment of God"s Word according to the will of God has no claim in the Kingdom nor in this world, other than what they can posses physically for a little while. Hence they are self-righteous, and are correct about what they think, but what they think is incorrect. Because it is Christ that Justifies, and the only true thing that is justified in the universe of it"s own, is the Presence of God and that which He has the right to decide to remain present with Him in His creation.

Impressively put together aha! God's justice and mercy is shown to all men through Jesus. They hate Jesus because they refuse to live in obedience to faith in God the father and recognize his judgement of their wickedness. They hate who God is and make themselves his enemies. They recognize that Jesus is the one who is the measure of whether they will receive judgement or eternal life.

Well judgement in most cases in the world is considered a punishment of another such as a court, or a condemnation of sorts, could even be of one"s self, but there is also good judgement such as good decision making or discernment, things of this nature, that bring results desired. When God gave His Commandment to Adam, it was God"s good judgement given to Adam that Adam may not die. It was already given that Adam and Eve multiply and take dominion of the earth. And in that were they made to carry out God"s Judgement in the earth, for God is in Heaven and Adam who was son of God (Lk:3:38) was to execute God"s Judgements expressed in God"s Commandments in the earth seeing that man is in the earth though it can seem he is on it. One can look to creation and see that God blessed much of what He made but He spoke directly to the man Adam saying behold this that and the other.

Again the commandment to Adam was clear but what can seem puzzling is, why didn"t God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life if it gave eternal life?
Truth_seeker
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11/13/2014 4:37:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well judgement in most cases in the world is considered a punishment of another such as a court, or a condemnation of sorts, could even be of one"s self, but there is also good judgement such as good decision making or discernment, things of this nature, that bring results desired. When God gave His Commandment to Adam, it was God"s good judgement given to Adam that Adam may not die. It was already given that Adam and Eve multiply and take dominion of the earth. And in that were they made to carry out God"s Judgement in the earth, for God is in Heaven and Adam who was son of God (Lk:3:38) was to execute God"s Judgements expressed in God"s Commandments in the earth seeing that man is in the earth though it can seem he is on it. One can look to creation and see that God blessed much of what He made but He spoke directly to the man Adam saying behold this that and the other.

Again the commandment to Adam was clear but what can seem puzzling is, why didn"t God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life if it gave eternal life?

Very great point. The commandment as i have said is a way of guidance. Meaning that God was advising Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge or the result would be death. Why didn't God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life? What caused us to be separated from God? Our sinfulness and failures to fully obey the Torah. Yes the Torah itself is God's wisdom and is good but as Paul pointed in Romans 5, it brings death to those who try to attain salvation from it since the flesh is opposed to the will of God. God probably realized that in this carnal state of existence, we would never be able to achieve eternal life unless we die to our sinful flesh and desires and are raised to life again in Jesus (Gal. 5:24). This can only be done through faith in him. Notice that in Revelation 22 Eden is restored and the Tree of Life is accessed only by the elect:

Rev. 22:1-5

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever."
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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11/14/2014 12:48:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 11:39:21 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
When we think of "The Law" we typically think of the rules and regulations established by God on Mount Sinai. However in Hebrew, the word "Torah" is translated as instruction and from the ancient pictographs and understanding, it should be understood as a set of wise instructions given by a father to his son. The word "Mitzvah" or commandments should also be understood not as God giving us orders but from the ancient Hebrew pictographs, it means guidance in the way that we should go.

When you say you have the Torah of Moses you are lying because what the Torah you have today is not the Torah of Moses! everybody knows that but people keep believe what they want... haleluya...
Never fart near dog
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,210
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11/14/2014 12:57:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not to interrupt this circle Je...hovah praising, but the athiest views things based on rationality and evidence.

If there is no evidence of something, it gets no credence. If it gets no credence, the athiest doesn't hate it, doesn't behave wickedley to spite it, etc. Its like saying you steal from orphans to get back at Santa.

Second, operating under the assumpt that such a God does exist, and indeed wasn't nice and rather mean, as you agree, why would ANYONE want to worship that, especially under means of extortion?

Thirdly, if God defines Himself in the Bible, and doesn't meet the bar of His own definitions, its not the athiest's judgement that God is not righteous, that is just the inherent state of the system that God put Himself in.

Carry on.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
celestialtorahteacher
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11/14/2014 6:28:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The earthly Torah written by priests and scribes of Judah, is a fraud. It does not follow the Celestial Torah which contains the Messianic relationship between God Most High and His Son acting as the Savior/Messiah. The Celestial Torah is written in God's Sign Language, the arrangements of stars and planets and their courses through the year and years, given in astrological code that no earthly group could control - - and this exactly why the priests of Judah made astrological meaning association with the Celestial Torah forbidden to Jews so they would remain deceived and accept the man-made earthly Torah written and thereby controlled by themselves whereas they had no control over the stars above. The professional astrologers like the Magi were forbidden to teach Jews so that the earthly Torah's deceit would not be discovered by the people. This forbidding of astrological interpretation of Scripture continued on with the Pauline Christian Gentile Church Fathers and the RCC, again so that the earthy priesthoods could keep control of the meaning of Scriptures.

Well, the cat's out of the bag now and the original Celestial Torah has been recovered so that you all know why the Christ is Messiah and not another David. The Celestial Torah at: http://biomystic.org...
bulproof
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11/14/2014 6:50:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
As if?
This would be the war god of the canaanites yes?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DPMartin
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11/14/2014 9:34:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 4:37:56 PM, Truth_seeker wrote:
Well judgement in most cases in the world is considered a punishment of another such as a court, or a condemnation of sorts, could even be of one"s self, but there is also good judgement such as good decision making or discernment, things of this nature, that bring results desired. When God gave His Commandment to Adam, it was God"s good judgement given to Adam that Adam may not die. It was already given that Adam and Eve multiply and take dominion of the earth. And in that were they made to carry out God"s Judgement in the earth, for God is in Heaven and Adam who was son of God (Lk:3:38) was to execute God"s Judgements expressed in God"s Commandments in the earth seeing that man is in the earth though it can seem he is on it. One can look to creation and see that God blessed much of what He made but He spoke directly to the man Adam saying behold this that and the other.

Again the commandment to Adam was clear but what can seem puzzling is, why didn"t God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life if it gave eternal life?

Very great point. The commandment as i have said is a way of guidance. Meaning that God was advising Adam to not eat of the tree of knowledge or the result would be death. Why didn't God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life? What caused us to be separated from God? Our sinfulness and failures to fully obey the Torah. Yes the Torah itself is God's wisdom and is good but as Paul pointed in Romans 5, it brings death to those who try to attain salvation from it since the flesh is opposed to the will of God. God probably realized that in this carnal state of existence, we would never be able to achieve eternal life unless we die to our sinful flesh and desires and are raised to life again in Jesus (Gal. 5:24). This can only be done through faith in him. Notice that in Revelation 22 Eden is restored and the Tree of Life is accessed only by the elect:

Rev. 22:1-5

"Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever."

Na, "Why didn't God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life?" and "What caused us to be separated from God?" are two different subjects. The separation is a result, the sin is a result just as "if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." therefore sin at the door is a result of not doing well. How does one do well? It is the Faith that is accounted righteousness, is the well doing that God recognizes or in Abel"s case respects, or honors. Hence back to A&E they trusted the words of the serpent and the words of the serpent was in the intended to erode the trust and belief Eve and or Adam had in the Lord their God and what He said. And started by testing for Eve"s accuracy or the lack of in respect to what exactly the Lord God said.

Of which doesn"t address "Why didn't God tell Adam to eat of the Tree of Life?". and your statement of "Tree of Life is accessed only by the elect" just might. But Adam received the life of son of God, how is it that Adam isn"t one of the elect? Also there was nothing keeping them from eating of the Tree of Life, it was available to them just as any other tree in the garden.
bornofgod
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11/14/2014 9:42:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/13/2014 11:39:21 AM, Truth_seeker wrote:
When we think of "The Law" we typically think of the rules and regulations established by God on Mount Sinai. However in Hebrew, the word "Torah" is translated as instruction and from the ancient pictographs and understanding, it should be understood as a set of wise instructions given by a father to his son. The word "Mitzvah" or commandments should also be understood not as God giving us orders but from the ancient Hebrew pictographs, it means guidance in the way that we should go.

And still My people don't listen to My voice or obey My commandments.