Total Posts:204|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

What do Atheists look forward to after death?

CayleURC
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.
16 year old noob
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:18:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

Being remembered by the people who they love maybe.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:19:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
What is the point of living?

There are many enjoyable and meaningful things in life.

It's Sad that you don't like it. :/
CayleURC
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:28:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:19:45 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
What is the point of living?

There are many enjoyable and meaningful things in life.

It's Sad that you don't like it. :/

Oh I love life. I'm just saying that after I die I have something to look forward to.
16 year old noob
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:33:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
What is the point of living?

At 11/14/2014 2:28:22 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Oh I love life.

Oh, that's good.. You can maybe see how I was confused though, no?

Lots of things are enjoyable and meaningful in life, and the fact that we die doesn't make them less enjoyable or meaningful.
carriead20
Posts: 1,394
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:36:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

Its more of why look forward to something after death? Why not just enjoy life how it is? We don't need an eternity after we die. All we need is life as it is nothing more, nothing less.
To all the people fighting a hard battle out there - life's giving you a pretty hard beating. There's no sugarcoating that, but there's no shadow that's free of light. When life sneers at you and asks, "Ready to go again?" - Raise your hand. Reach out to victory. Don't give in.

---Help Bsh and YYW see each other---
http://www.gofundme.com...
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 2:44:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The same thing we experienced before birth. Nothing. That's why atheists enjoy life more than theists, because we know it is fleeting and a one time only proposition.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 3:25:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

The idea of living in some heaven after you die is a fantasy. It is an escape from reality for those who hate their life on Earth. Those who enjoy their lives on Earth need no escape from reality and no invisible entities to save them from reality.
After you die you end up in the grave like everyone else. You will know and feel nothing. All end up resting in peace.
All you leave behind is memories in those who actually knew and loved you. The rest won't even miss you.
Believers in mythical characters and unbelievers in mythical characters all end up in the same place....Underground. The life which is after your life is not some new life for you as an individual. It is the life of the living which continue to live after you have passed away. The life after death applies to the living not to the dead. The dead do not get a new life. They sleep in peace forever, never to awaken again.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 3:26:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:44:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
The same thing we experienced before birth. Nothing. That's why atheists enjoy life more than theists, because we know it is fleeting and a one time only proposition.

Recent studied have shown that religious people are less susceptible to depression than those who lack religion, possibly because their cerebral cortex is thicker. Maybe I should start going to church. :-/
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 3:28:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

I think it's a bit amusing that so many people feel qualified to give such detailed descriptions of something they can't possibly know.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 4:57:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

Quite simple; hedonistic endeavors, promiscuous encounters, and the vast accumulation of knowledge motivate me in this life. I have no concern for what happens to me after my brain ceases function and my body decomposes. I am interested though, what motivates your appeal to the notion that there is an afterlife? Even if there is indeed an alternate life, aside from the one you are currently experiencing, why not seek to enjoy this on on your terms, and not on Gods account?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 5:03:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

The same reason why you haven't already punched yer clock to go meet and greet all that stuff you are supposedly looking forward too.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 5:29:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have no answer for a meaningless question. How can one look forward to anything after death if they do not exist to experience it?

I am quite happy with that status quo.
MEK
Posts: 253
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 5:38:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

We look forward to living a life with honest integrity focusing on each day as though it might be our last without any illusion of an after life.
Let me ask you a question, why do so many believers look forward to spending an eternity with a celestial dictator who creates you sick and then orders you to be well? Why do many believers feel that they must suffer in this life in order to get to heaven? Why is it so difficult to understand and accept that the party will go on without you after you die? I think it a waste that so many believers spend so much time waiting for death to arrive so that they can be "happy". This is pathetic and sad.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 11:35:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.

When judged on the grand scheme of 13 trillion years, correct. Though an afterlife doesn't do much in the way for humanity either in the way of bringing meaning, since an eternity lay beyond death, and having existed on earth for 80ish years would have meant nothing, too.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 11:36:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
objectively meaningless.

Who cares about objective meaning? o.O

lol

get it?
If someone cared, that would matter, but that's subjective... which is Why it matters ;)
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 11:51:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 11:35:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.

When judged on the grand scheme of 13 trillion years, correct. Though an afterlife doesn't do much in the way for humanity either in the way of bringing meaning, since an eternity lay beyond death, and having existed on earth for 80ish years would have meant nothing, too.

In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 11:53:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 11:51:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:35:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.

When judged on the grand scheme of 13 trillion years, correct. Though an afterlife doesn't do much in the way for humanity either in the way of bringing meaning, since an eternity lay beyond death, and having existed on earth for 80ish years would have meant nothing, too.

In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/14/2014 11:59:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 11:53:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:51:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:35:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.

When judged on the grand scheme of 13 trillion years, correct. Though an afterlife doesn't do much in the way for humanity either in the way of bringing meaning, since an eternity lay beyond death, and having existed on earth for 80ish years would have meant nothing, too.

In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 12:04:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 11:59:18 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:53:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:51:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:35:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.

When judged on the grand scheme of 13 trillion years, correct. Though an afterlife doesn't do much in the way for humanity either in the way of bringing meaning, since an eternity lay beyond death, and having existed on earth for 80ish years would have meant nothing, too.

In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,566
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 12:13:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

Sorry, but we atheists are trying to live the one life we've been given due to the fact we understand death for what it most likely is and is not.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 12:34:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/15/2014 12:04:42 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:59:18 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:53:55 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:51:29 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:35:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/14/2014 11:31:58 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Well, nothing really.

I'm not an atheist so I can't answer for them. But logically, if atheism is true, we're nothing more than assembled space junk. The universe is entirely indifferent to our existence. Humanity will die out after the inevitable heat death of the universe and nothing but a cold and dark expanse will exist after that. Every human endeavor is objectively meaningless.

When judged on the grand scheme of 13 trillion years, correct. Though an afterlife doesn't do much in the way for humanity either in the way of bringing meaning, since an eternity lay beyond death, and having existed on earth for 80ish years would have meant nothing, too.

In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.

So everything is inherently worthless without sentient participation since 'worth' is a conscious determination. Correct?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 12:36:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.

So everything is inherently worthless without sentient participation since 'worth' is a conscious determination. Correct?

Correct.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 12:55:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/15/2014 12:36:46 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.

So everything is inherently worthless without sentient participation since 'worth' is a conscious determination. Correct?

Correct.

So now we need to see whether or not this conscious concept of 'worth' is subjective or objective in grand scheme of things. If the natural universe arose from unembodied processes, and humanity formed from those natural processes, nothing has any inherent (objective) value. All value is extrinsically given by humans (a product of unembodied processes.) Thus, nothing, including humanity, has any inherent value.

If we establish that nothing has any real value then in the grand scheme of things everything is meaningless.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 1:04:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/15/2014 12:55:08 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/15/2014 12:36:46 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.

So everything is inherently worthless without sentient participation since 'worth' is a conscious determination. Correct?

Correct.

So now we need to see whether or not this conscious concept of 'worth' is subjective or objective in grand scheme of things. If the natural universe arose from unembodied processes, and humanity formed from those natural processes, nothing has any inherent (objective) value. All value is extrinsically given by humans (a product of unembodied processes.) Thus, nothing, including humanity, has any inherent value.

Everything of value is given value by humans. I have no idea how a gorilla might value its various foods, or how a dog values a bone. Second, it has inherent value after other humans give it value. Thats the point.

If we establish that nothing has any real value then in the grand scheme of things everything is meaningless.

Problem being is that NOTHING is the only thing that has no value, if we just agreed that humanity places value on things, and things exist, then it has a value, though it inherently doesn't have said value unless its involved with humanity in some way. Humanity can't value some rock floating out in space that we don't know about, but we CAN place a value (if one of no real consequene) to a similar rock in our back yard.

'in the grand scheme of things' is the subjectivity of your argument you are trying to use objectively. 'In the Grand scheme of things', any personal accomplishments in a believed afterlife are meaningless, since with infinite time and opporitunity, and people inhabiting it, it will have done before, and is inevitable in the scope of eternity. There would be no challenge.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,928
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 1:42:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/15/2014 1:04:32 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/15/2014 12:55:08 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/15/2014 12:36:46 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.

So everything is inherently worthless without sentient participation since 'worth' is a conscious determination. Correct?

Correct.

So now we need to see whether or not this conscious concept of 'worth' is subjective or objective in grand scheme of things. If the natural universe arose from unembodied processes, and humanity formed from those natural processes, nothing has any inherent (objective) value. All value is extrinsically given by humans (a product of unembodied processes.) Thus, nothing, including humanity, has any inherent value.

Everything of value is given value by humans. I have no idea how a gorilla might value its various foods, or how a dog values a bone. Second, it has inherent value after other humans give it value. Thats the point.

I disagree with your second point. Any assigned value only lasts as long as the human valuing said object does. We've established that nothing has any *inherent value* and all value is given extrinsically by sentient beings. There's nothing inherent about that. By saying that things really have value here and now in the grand scheme of things like loving your spouse, spending time with friends and family, and being a generous person is the same thing as saying that what really has value here and now is raping, killing, and stealing as much as possible.

If we establish that nothing has any real value then in the grand scheme of things everything is meaningless.

Problem being is that NOTHING is the only thing that has no value, if we just agreed that humanity places value on things, and things exist, then it has a value, though it inherently doesn't have said value unless its involved with humanity in some way. Humanity can't value some rock floating out in space that we don't know about, but we CAN place a value (if one of no real consequene) to a similar rock in our back yard.

I agree that humans can assign extrinsic value. Without humans there is no value. For something to have meaning it must have some value. So wouldn't anything that we did during our lives be meaningless once the inevitable heat death of the universe occurs? If it's because we've assigned that meaning at the time the meaning was given, but meaning is subjective to the conscious participant, meaning itself is meaningless.

'in the grand scheme of things' is the subjectivity of your argument you are trying to use objectively. 'In the Grand scheme of things', any personal accomplishments in a believed afterlife are meaningless, since with infinite time and opporitunity, and people inhabiting it, it will have done before, and is inevitable in the scope of eternity. There would be no challenge.

It's impossible to know whether our time here is meaningless relative to an eternal afterlife. You'd have to know the purpose of humanity first in order to make that determination.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 1:50:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/15/2014 1:42:28 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/15/2014 1:04:32 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/15/2014 12:55:08 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 11/15/2014 12:36:46 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
In order to know that our time here on earth is meaningless relative to eternity you'd need to know the purpose of our time here. That requires knowledge that nobody has. The important thing to consider is that objective standards and idealistic endeavors never were really true. It is not better to love an infant rather than to rape it, it is not better to seek knowledge rather than being willfully ignorant, it is not better to be compassionate rather than being hateful, it is not better to seek peace rather than war. All of these are realized absurdities but follow necessarily if atheism is true and nothing has any objective meaning.

When viewed on the scope of 13 trillion years. In what way does being here, now, and wanting the best for those here, now become meaningless? For not being an athiest, but speaking for them, you seem to invent a LOT self serving arguments while doing so.

In what way does something inherently valueless create something inherently valuable? Essentially that is what you arguing for by negating "meaningless".

By the participation of those around it. Gold? Worthless. Silver? Worthless. The Dollar? Worthless. They are just elemental crystals and paper. But those participating in the economic systems that use them apply value to the worthless scraps they are, just as people do with the deeds and actions a person engages in.

So everything is inherently worthless without sentient participation since 'worth' is a conscious determination. Correct?

Correct.

So now we need to see whether or not this conscious concept of 'worth' is subjective or objective in grand scheme of things. If the natural universe arose from unembodied processes, and humanity formed from those natural processes, nothing has any inherent (objective) value. All value is extrinsically given by humans (a product of unembodied processes.) Thus, nothing, including humanity, has any inherent value.

Everything of value is given value by humans. I have no idea how a gorilla might value its various foods, or how a dog values a bone. Second, it has inherent value after other humans give it value. Thats the point.

I disagree with your second point. Any assigned value only lasts as long as the human valuing said object does. We've established that nothing has any *inherent value* and all value is given extrinsically by sentient beings. There's nothing inherent about that. By saying that things really have value here and now in the grand scheme of things like loving your spouse, spending time with friends and family, and being a generous person is the same thing as saying that what really has value here and now is raping, killing, and stealing as much as possible.

Correct, I mistyped, applied or intrinsic was where I was wanting to take that. No one applies a value to raping, stealing, and killing, though, at least in a positive light. If you (some how) got humanity on board with raping, killing, and stealing and got everyone on board with calling it the same, then sure, but I am not sure how you are going to manage that.

If we establish that nothing has any real value then in the grand scheme of things everything is meaningless.

Problem being is that NOTHING is the only thing that has no value, if we just agreed that humanity places value on things, and things exist, then it has a value, though it inherently doesn't have said value unless its involved with humanity in some way. Humanity can't value some rock floating out in space that we don't know about, but we CAN place a value (if one of no real consequene) to a similar rock in our back yard.

I agree that humans can assign extrinsic value. Without humans there is no value. For something to have meaning it must have some value. So wouldn't anything that we did during our lives be meaningless once the inevitable heat death of the universe occurs?

Isn't this ultimately the determination of what after life we get? Wouldn't this also mean that the afterlife then becomes meaningless as its based on meaningless and futile actions?

If it's because we've assigned that meaning at the time the meaning was given, but meaning is subjective to the conscious participant, meaning itself is meaningless.

Participants, plural, and that meaning or value doesn't always terminate with just one person.


'in the grand scheme of things' is the subjectivity of your argument you are trying to use objectively. 'In the Grand scheme of things', any personal accomplishments in a believed afterlife are meaningless, since with infinite time and opporitunity, and people inhabiting it, it will have done before, and is inevitable in the scope of eternity. There would be no challenge.

It's impossible to know whether our time here is meaningless relative to an eternal afterlife. You'd have to know the purpose of humanity first in order to make that determination.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
18Karl
Posts: 351
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2014 1:58:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/14/2014 2:13:12 PM, CayleURC wrote:
Just curious, but what do Atheists have to look forward to if they don't believe in an afterlife? What is the point of living? I look forward to spending eternity praising the God I love, but what are they looking forward to? I'm not trying to start a Christian vs Atheist argument here. I just want to know what they look forward to and what are they living their life for.

I look forward to a long sleep to compensate for all the hours I've spent on this damned website.
praise the lord Chin Chin