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Atheist morality is better!

bebil10
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11/16/2014 8:15:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Theists like to pretend atheists have no basis for morality, when in fact we do. What benefits or harms society. Theists generally claim their morality comes from god. Now how do most theists decide what god wants as moral. Well, they look to their holy book. Well guess what your holy books are 1000's of years old and we have advanced past that times knowledge. They do this because they think the book is from god, but the problem is it is not. It is from people of that time period. So why they think they are looking to a higher power, they are looking to a more primitive time for answer to questions that we have way more knowledge then they did at that time.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,711
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11/16/2014 9:09:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 8:15:13 AM, bebil10 wrote:
Theists like to pretend atheists have no basis for morality, when in fact we do. What benefits or harms society. Theists generally claim their morality comes from god. Now how do most theists decide what god wants as moral. Well, they look to their holy book. Well guess what your holy books are 1000's of years old and we have advanced past that times knowledge. They do this because they think the book is from god, but the problem is it is not. It is from people of that time period. So why they think they are looking to a higher power, they are looking to a more primitive time for answer to questions that we have way more knowledge then they did at that time.

Response: When you say atheists' morality is based on what harms society, then your view is subjective since you have no authority as to who determines what harm society. That means that what harms society is based on the majority, social pressure, etc.. Therefore, the atheist concept of morality is problematic. Whereas relying on Allah relieves that problem.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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11/16/2014 9:12:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:09:58 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 8:15:13 AM, bebil10 wrote:
Theists like to pretend atheists have no basis for morality, when in fact we do. What benefits or harms society. Theists generally claim their morality comes from god. Now how do most theists decide what god wants as moral. Well, they look to their holy book. Well guess what your holy books are 1000's of years old and we have advanced past that times knowledge. They do this because they think the book is from god, but the problem is it is not. It is from people of that time period. So why they think they are looking to a higher power, they are looking to a more primitive time for answer to questions that we have way more knowledge then they did at that time.

Response: When you say atheists' morality is based on what harms society, then your view is subjective since you have no authority as to who determines what harm society. That means that what harms society is based on the majority, social pressure, etc.. Therefore, the atheist concept of morality is problematic. Whereas relying on Allah relieves that problem.
Yeah allah has no problem with killing people.
Much better.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 9:13:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:09:58 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 8:15:13 AM, bebil10 wrote:
Theists like to pretend atheists have no basis for morality, when in fact we do. What benefits or harms society. Theists generally claim their morality comes from god. Now how do most theists decide what god wants as moral. Well, they look to their holy book. Well guess what your holy books are 1000's of years old and we have advanced past that times knowledge. They do this because they think the book is from god, but the problem is it is not. It is from people of that time period. So why they think they are looking to a higher power, they are looking to a more primitive time for answer to questions that we have way more knowledge then they did at that time.

Response: When you say atheists' morality is based on what harms society, then your view is subjective since you have no authority as to who determines what harm society. That means that what harms society is based on the majority, social pressure, etc.. Therefore, the atheist concept of morality is problematic. Whereas relying on Allah relieves that problem.

Or it could be based on objective measures such as societies that allow these actions live longer, societies that don't allow these actions show greater happiness,which is now objectively studied by neurologists. Yeah, come again.
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 9:19:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
So I am going to use the most extreme example, I am saying that we can make an informed decision that blowing up Earth does not benefit society as we have seen societies that kill each other don't survive. You think someones opinion that it is good is just as valid? You can't be serious.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:09:58 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 8:15:13 AM, bebil10 wrote:
Theists like to pretend atheists have no basis for morality, when in fact we do. What benefits or harms society. Theists generally claim their morality comes from god. Now how do most theists decide what god wants as moral. Well, they look to their holy book. Well guess what your holy books are 1000's of years old and we have advanced past that times knowledge. They do this because they think the book is from god, but the problem is it is not. It is from people of that time period. So why they think they are looking to a higher power, they are looking to a more primitive time for answer to questions that we have way more knowledge then they did at that time.

Response: When you say atheists' morality is based on what harms society, then your view is subjective since you have no authority as to who determines what harm society. That means that what harms society is based on the majority, social pressure, etc.. Therefore, the atheist concept of morality is problematic. Whereas relying on Allah relieves that problem.

Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/16/2014 9:35:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Sorry kid, Atheists have no rational morality (At least Nietzsche accepted the reduction to absurdity conclusion of Atheism).

This is like saying "moral values comes from math". This is a category error, more famously known as the is/ought fallacy.
Perhaps you can use math to help you figure out "how to not abuse your neighbor" to some extent, but you'll never get an equation that says "abusing your neighbor is wrong". Even if there were such equation, there is no obligation to obey it.
Now tell, Why. Why human flourishing specifically? Why would inflicting harm on another organism be wrong? Animals rape all the time, and it's just nature at work. A bunch of molecules just happened to assemble randomly and brought an illusion of "consciousness" and "identity", so? Someone's brain forced him to do an action, so?

Consequentialism is a form of pragmatism in which the objectives are chosen for the purpose and whims of the chooser (which is 100% subjective, Atheist watermark included).
If executing disabled and old people benefits society, then you are obligated to do it. If you want to be rich, and murder and thievery happens to be the most efficient way, then you are obligated to murder and steal. If benefiting society is faster with cultural genocide and colonization, then you are obligated to do it.

That is all what this is:
I subjectively want Y, therefore I am obligated to do X, in which X is the most efficient way.

Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him? (Quran 25:43)

{35} Say, "Are there of your 'partners' any who guides to the truth?" Say, " Allah guides to the truth. So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?"
{36} And most of them follow not except assumption. Indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do.

(Quran 10:35-36)

Here is a post I wrote earlier:

The problem I have is with the word "Good"... The word denotes a moral state; a standard which determines which behavior is judged to be good or bad. And by this standard, thy judge themselves as [Good]. Hallelujah!

What they don't exactly say is which standard they use to judge themselves. Atheism inherently comes with no moral standards attached to it, so it must be one of the following:

1- An arbitrary moral standard which they created (and change on a whim) themselves to match their personal behavior.
2- An existing moral standard, like of the Abrahamic religions.
3- A legal or judicial standard, in which they have mistakenly confused it with a moral standard which applies everywhere and at all times.
4- They self-deceive themselves with a tautology that they are inherently moral by definition.
5- They lied by claiming that they comfort to a standard.

I am betting that they are following an arbitrarily impossible-to-violate standard they invented, or committed an intellectual property theft (Where are you copyright advocates?) by stealing a standard they do not believe in.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,711
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11/16/2014 9:36:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:19:39 AM, bebil10 wrote:
So I am going to use the most extreme example, I am saying that we can make an informed decision that blowing up Earth does not benefit society as we have seen societies that kill each other don't survive. You think someones opinion that it is good is just as valid? You can't be serious.

Response: In other words, you can't resolve the problem of relying on social pressure to tell you the difference between right and wrong, thus exposing the absurdity of morality in atheism. While morality is objective in Islam and provides solutions. Thanks for the clarification.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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11/16/2014 9:40:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:36:26 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:19:39 AM, bebil10 wrote:
So I am going to use the most extreme example, I am saying that we can make an informed decision that blowing up Earth does not benefit society as we have seen societies that kill each other don't survive. You think someones opinion that it is good is just as valid? You can't be serious.

Response: In other words, you can't resolve the problem of relying on social pressure to tell you the difference between right and wrong, thus exposing the absurdity of morality in atheism. While morality is objective in Islam and provides solutions. Thanks for the clarification.
Did morality suddenly begin to exist when muhammad promoted the allah from the arabic pagan pantheon of gods to be the one true god?
Was there no morality before that?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 9:44:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Its also funny when religious people try to argue this is not the case. Since religions after all provide us the biggest clue to where morality comes from benefit and harm to society. Why do you think Religions have such devices as heaven and hell, god or gods harming people for actions, Reincarnation and more. You guessed it because our morality is linked to benefit and harm and the religions must alter our perspective of this in order to get us to follow their moral guidelines.
Fatihah
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11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 9:58:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

So if a child is in the road and a car is heading towards them, the only reason you save them is because of Allah, not because it is the right thing to do as allowing kids to die is not a benefit to society. I do it because the kids life is important and it is a benefit to society. Sorry, you aren't a moral person then.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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11/16/2014 10:04:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

Unfortunately, turning to Allah for solutions means turning to violence for solutions, and to atheists, that is immoral.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans for loot.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Thanksfornotraping
Posts: 238
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11/16/2014 10:07:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:58:26 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.


So if a child is in the road and a car is heading towards them, the only reason you save them is because of Allah, not because it is the right thing to do as allowing kids to die is not a benefit to society. I do it because the kids life is important and it is a benefit to society. Sorry, you aren't a moral person then.

Exactly- if people ONLY "choose" to do "good" things because of their belief in an imaginary, sociopathic God, instead of their intrinsic humanity, they are psychopaths. I would never, ever be around people who are begrudgingly doing the "right" thing only because they fear eternal punishment, and if that threat of punishment wasn't there they'd start raping and killing because that's what they REALLY want to do...
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.
Dragonfang
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11/16/2014 10:14:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:04:57 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

Unfortunately, turning to Allah for solutions means turning to violence for solutions, and to atheists, that is immoral.

WHY?

http://muslim-responses.com...
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/16/2014 10:26:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

That's okay. I'm good how I am, thank you :)
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/16/2014 10:28:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:58:26 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.


So if a child is in the road and a car is heading towards them, the only reason you save them is because of Allah, not because it is the right thing to do as allowing kids to die is not a benefit to society. I do it because the kids life is important and it is a benefit to society. Sorry, you aren't a moral person then.

Yes, because we would only exist because of Allah, and our moral intuition comes from Allah.

{7} And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it
{8} And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,
{9} He has succeeded who purifies it,
{10} And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].

(Quran 91:7-10)

I too agree that the kid's life is important and benefits society, so?

Answer these two questions:

1- Why should we consider children life's important?
2- Why should we benefit society?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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11/16/2014 10:29:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:14:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:04:57 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

Unfortunately, turning to Allah for solutions means turning to violence for solutions, and to atheists, that is immoral.

WHY?

http://muslim-responses.com...

Are you asking why turning to violence is immoral? Are you serious? Is that how you handle all of your problems, with violence?

Usually, people seek reason, logic and rationale when looking for solutions to problems. Using violence is barbaric and does not benefit anyone. Societies would soon crumble as has been observed throughout history. Violence only begets more violence,
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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11/16/2014 10:31:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:28:47 AM, Dragonfang wrote:

Answer these two questions:

1- Why should we consider children life's important?

Because, they are the ones we will be passing the reigns of power over our societies.

2- Why should we benefit society?

If you don't benefit societies, they will crumble back into the dirt from whence they came, tainted with the blood of the innocents.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/16/2014 10:34:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:29:24 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:14:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:04:57 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

Unfortunately, turning to Allah for solutions means turning to violence for solutions, and to atheists, that is immoral.

WHY?

http://muslim-responses.com...

Are you asking why turning to violence is immoral? Are you serious? Is that how you handle all of your problems, with violence?

Usually, people seek reason, logic and rationale when looking for solutions to problems. Using violence is barbaric and does not benefit anyone. Societies would soon crumble as has been observed throughout history. Violence only begets more violence,

Yes, I am asking you. Based on your mock-shock the answer should be easy right?
How I personally handle problems is irrelevant, but the answer is no.

As I said, animals rape & kill all the time. What if someone evolved a different brain that believes violence is moral? What if future generations evolve to believe that gang rape is moral?

What if someone evolved a different meat computer?
Why is human flourishing more important than bacteria or ant flourishing?
Dragonfang
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11/16/2014 10:38:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:31:50 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:28:47 AM, Dragonfang wrote:

Answer these two questions:

1- Why should we consider children life's important?

Because, they are the ones we will be passing the reigns of power over our societies.

So because you subjectively believe that passing the reign of power to children is a "good" thing, you consider children life's important?
So the value of children life is subjective?

2- Why should we benefit society?

If you don't benefit societies, they will crumble back into the dirt from whence they came, tainted with the blood of the innocents.

So?
If you don't benefit society you have a more of a chance to get more money and power.

You said what happens, not what should happen.
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 10:59:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.

So the entire health system is fallacious. I mean it is the case that we prefer not have lung cancer over having it, so we ought not smoke. Same with morality.
Dragonfang
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11/16/2014 11:05:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:59:57 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.

So the entire health system is fallacious. I mean it is the case that we prefer not have lung cancer over having it, so we ought not smoke. Same with morality.

Refer to my first post in the thread to the math example & beyond.
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 11:08:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 11:05:06 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:59:57 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.

So the entire health system is fallacious. I mean it is the case that we prefer not have lung cancer over having it, so we ought not smoke. Same with morality.

Refer to my first post in the thread to the math example & beyond.

It is the case that allah thinks we should do X, therefore we ought do X. Rut roh stuck in that rut again.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/16/2014 11:17:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 11:08:17 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 11:05:06 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:59:57 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.

So the entire health system is fallacious. I mean it is the case that we prefer not have lung cancer over having it, so we ought not smoke. Same with morality.

Refer to my first post in the thread to the math example & beyond.

It is the case that allah thinks we should do X, therefore we ought do X. Rut roh stuck in that rut again.

Incorrect. Allah's attributes are manifestations of his greatness and supremacy, and his commands expresses his internal nature. So whatever Allah commands will always be good.
bebil10
Posts: 139
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11/16/2014 11:19:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 11:17:08 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 11:08:17 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 11:05:06 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:59:57 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.

So the entire health system is fallacious. I mean it is the case that we prefer not have lung cancer over having it, so we ought not smoke. Same with morality.

Refer to my first post in the thread to the math example & beyond.

It is the case that allah thinks we should do X, therefore we ought do X. Rut roh stuck in that rut again.

Incorrect. Allah's attributes are manifestations of his greatness and supremacy, and his commands expresses his internal nature. So whatever Allah commands will always be good.

You are really deluted, you ought to actually read the Koran, sorry allah does is neither great nor supreme, but rather evil and inferior. As expressed by his commands expressing his eternal nature.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/16/2014 11:29:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 11:19:26 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 11:17:08 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 11:08:17 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 11:05:06 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:59:57 AM, bebil10 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:10:18 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:40:46 AM, bebil10 wrote:
No buddy, it is much like health, we figure out what is healthy based on if we live longer. Like eating an apple is healthier than eating rat poison. It really isn't that complicated. Actions that help us survive are moral and we can figure this out with real information. Sorry this is over your head and you need allah said to get an answer.

Lets use this example someone says Hitler killing the jews is moral, I say it is not? Both of our opinions are not on equal footing because killing large groups of people does not help us survive, it kills us. Much like in health feeding large groups of people poison is not healthy.

Refer to my post.
More is/ought fallacy. Replace the "Is" with "should" and then you'll have a moral statement. Hey, what do you know? They are based on your opinion!

Hitler says it is because it is based on natural selection. Therefore, he is moral and you are wrong.

In fact, I'll give you a better definition of morality: Moral law is equivalent to physical law, because your existence is based on hydrogen, carbon, oxygen, potassium, calcium, sodium, etc.

So the entire health system is fallacious. I mean it is the case that we prefer not have lung cancer over having it, so we ought not smoke. Same with morality.

Refer to my first post in the thread to the math example & beyond.

It is the case that allah thinks we should do X, therefore we ought do X. Rut roh stuck in that rut again.

Incorrect. Allah's attributes are manifestations of his greatness and supremacy, and his commands expresses his internal nature. So whatever Allah commands will always be good.

You are really deluted, you ought to actually read the Koran, sorry allah does is neither great nor supreme, but rather evil and inferior. As expressed by his commands expressing his eternal nature.

Says the person who read the Quran less than me.

Your statement is logically incoherent, but lets put ontology aside and see your evidence of why you think so.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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11/16/2014 11:33:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:34:07 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:29:24 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:14:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/16/2014 10:04:57 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:51:47 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:30:19 AM, jodybirdy wrote:


Uhm... no. With all due respect, you must not understand. I will stick with my own moral judgement of what is right and wrong. I do not think Allah can fix the diseased morality in this world. We have to do that for ourselves.

Response: The fact that no one can point to anything from Allah that does not provide the best in moral judgment shows that Allah is the solution.

Unfortunately, turning to Allah for solutions means turning to violence for solutions, and to atheists, that is immoral.

WHY?

http://muslim-responses.com...

Are you asking why turning to violence is immoral? Are you serious? Is that how you handle all of your problems, with violence?

Usually, people seek reason, logic and rationale when looking for solutions to problems. Using violence is barbaric and does not benefit anyone. Societies would soon crumble as has been observed throughout history. Violence only begets more violence,

Yes, I am asking you. Based on your mock-shock the answer should be easy right?
How I personally handle problems is irrelevant, but the answer is no.

As I said, animals rape & kill all the time. What if someone evolved a different brain that believes violence is moral? What if future generations evolve to believe that gang rape is moral?

What if someone evolved a different meat computer?
Why is human flourishing more important than bacteria or ant flourishing?

I can see that you're off on some ridiculous tangents that have nothing to do with the discussion and are invoking ridiculous extremes where none exist.

Try coming down to reality if you want to discuss reality.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth