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Question for theistic evolutionists...

dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/16/2014 5:28:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

No, they are now an endangered species as their natural habitat (the superstitious mind) has shrunk over the years. The remaining population is thought to be unviable due to inbreeding and poor diet (lack of human prayers).
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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11/16/2014 10:15:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

No.

Because they don't f"cking exist.
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
joepalcsak
Posts: 409
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11/16/2014 11:45:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

So then, do you believe that angels are a special Creation of God? Do you believe humans are not?
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/16/2014 11:51:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 11:45:18 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.


So then, do you believe that angels are a special Creation of God? Do you believe humans are not?

Not sure how any of that follows from anything, or even what implications the answer would have on theology. What is a "special" creation anyway? Humans and angels are both the only substances with an intellective nature. Angels, as pure intellect, are incorporeal, whereas man's intellect is conjoined with his body.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/16/2014 11:51:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 10:15:03 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

No.

Because they don't f"cking exist.

Beautiful.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/17/2014 1:46:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?

The answer all of the patristic authors give is that the angels assumed human bodies to ease the accomplishment of their function -- namely, to bring a message, as you said. But the bodies were united accidentally to them, rather than essentially, as they are to our souls.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/17/2014 1:49:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 1:46:31 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?

The answer all of the patristic authors give is that the angels assumed human bodies to ease the accomplishment of their function -- namely, to bring a message, as you said. But the bodies were united accidentally to them, rather than essentially, as they are to our souls.

Another, less common answer (one I do not subscribe to) is that the images and sounds were directly embedded into their imagination by angelic or divine power, rather than being geographically present. I prefer the assumption of bodies, however, since it's a rather pale anticipation of the Incarnation.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/17/2014 4:52:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 1:46:31 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?

The answer all of the patristic authors give is that the angels assumed human bodies to ease the accomplishment of their function -- namely, to bring a message, as you said. But the bodies were united accidentally to them, rather than essentially, as they are to our souls.

Interesting. (Not that I buy it, of course).

Would that be co-opting existing human bodies or creating them on demand?
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/17/2014 10:22:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 4:52:46 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:46:31 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?

The answer all of the patristic authors give is that the angels assumed human bodies to ease the accomplishment of their function -- namely, to bring a message, as you said. But the bodies were united accidentally to them, rather than essentially, as they are to our souls.

Interesting. (Not that I buy it, of course).

Would that be co-opting existing human bodies or creating them on demand?

That is something so incredibly distantly removed from my domain of knowledge.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/17/2014 4:36:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 10:22:29 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 4:52:46 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:46:31 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?

The answer all of the patristic authors give is that the angels assumed human bodies to ease the accomplishment of their function -- namely, to bring a message, as you said. But the bodies were united accidentally to them, rather than essentially, as they are to our souls.

Interesting. (Not that I buy it, of course).

Would that be co-opting existing human bodies or creating them on demand?

That is something so incredibly distantly removed from my domain of knowledge.

Fair enough. I had issues either way, but I'll keep my powder dry for another day. :-)
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/17/2014 6:31:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/17/2014 4:36:48 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/17/2014 10:22:29 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 4:52:46 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:46:31 AM, Cassius wrote:
At 11/17/2014 1:39:10 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, angels, as incorporeal, are subject to neither.

Welcome back. :-)

If angels are incorporeal, how were they used as god's messengers? They visited various people during biblical times and were both visible and could be conversed with. What did the photons bounce off so that they could be seen and how did they vibrate the air to be heard?

The answer all of the patristic authors give is that the angels assumed human bodies to ease the accomplishment of their function -- namely, to bring a message, as you said. But the bodies were united accidentally to them, rather than essentially, as they are to our souls.

Interesting. (Not that I buy it, of course).

Would that be co-opting existing human bodies or creating them on demand?

That is something so incredibly distantly removed from my domain of knowledge.

Fair enough. I had issues either way, but I'll keep my powder dry for another day. :-)

I would, however, lean towards the second option, since I myself have problems with the first, both metaphysically and ethically. If I had to guess, I would say that the human bodies are configured by Divine power. Medieval angelology also leaned towards the latter option. As a side note, they stated that the angel would not exercise its vital functions (i.e., growing, eating, etc.) as the angel is not a principle of life in an organic body, as the human soul is for a human body.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
Karmanator
Posts: 142
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11/17/2014 10:55:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

I think beings outside the earth would evolve, like the rest of the universe does. That might help with angels I dont know, they would be extraterrestrial from the sound of it.
joepalcsak
Posts: 409
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11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels. It is written that God Created man in His own image.

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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11/18/2014 7:42:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels. It is written that God Created man in His own image.

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine

When did your god create angels and provide evidence to support your claim.
Do you remember?
In the beginning?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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11/18/2014 9:35:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels. It is written that God Created man in His own image.

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine

Silly quote. Evolution doesn't preculde a creator btw. And Gods image =/= physical characterists
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
joepalcsak
Posts: 409
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11/18/2014 10:01:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 7:42:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels. It is written that God Created man in His own image.

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine

When did your god create angels and provide evidence to support your claim.
Do you remember?
In the beginning?

Please read and pay close attention to the title of this forum. You should quickly notice that it was created for believers.

Now if you want to have a rational conversation concerning the question of God's existence, I am happy to do that. But that is a different question.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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11/18/2014 10:32:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, ...

What does that mean? What is 'material generation' or 'material corruption' ?
This space for rent.
Cassius
Posts: 142
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11/18/2014 4:52:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 10:32:20 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/16/2014 9:28:44 PM, Cassius wrote:
Evolution is a material process which uses the mechanisms of material generation and material corruption, ...

What does that mean? What is 'material generation' or 'material corruption' ?

Meaning evolution requires organic birth and organic death, as one organism proceeds from another organism.
I used to be Nur-Ab-Sal.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/18/2014 6:20:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels.

I've never seen an angel. Have you?

It is written that God Created man in His own image.

So?

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Really? What is that evidence?

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

You mean the 160+ year-old theory which is taught in every respectable secondary and tertiary institution in the world? The theory which has a mountain of evidence for it? The theory which underpins the study of anti-biotic resistance in medicine? That theory?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine

Love your tagline. Isn't it though? Which is probably why 95% of the world's elite scientists don't believe in god. Lol.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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11/18/2014 7:29:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
No. At least not to our knowledge because we can't observe the angels, anymore than we can observe demons, Satan and God. His creation on earth can surely evolve, but that's about it.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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11/18/2014 7:34:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels. It is written that God Created man in His own image.

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine

Really? I see people whose faith gets stronger because of evolution. Francis Collins for example. There is no evidence you can provide for a creator besides complex "designs". Evolution is a secular scientific theory and needs to stay that way. It ain't a Christian theory, but it doesn't destroy the possibility that Christians can believe in it without compromising God's authority. Where you see it as gasoline for atheist flames, I see it as kerosene and gasoline for Christian flames.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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11/18/2014 8:15:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/16/2014 5:28:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

No, they are now an endangered species as their natural habitat (the superstitious mind) has shrunk over the years. The remaining population is thought to be unviable due to inbreeding and poor diet (lack of human prayers).

"Angels don't just sing at Christmastime. For most Americans, they're a year-round presence. A new Associated Press-GfK poll shows that 77 percent of adults believe these ethereal beings are real." ~ http://www.cbsnews.com...

It doesn't sound like they are approaching extinction just yet ...
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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11/18/2014 10:25:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 10:01:42 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
At 11/18/2014 7:42:32 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/18/2014 7:35:13 AM, joepalcsak wrote:
Here's the the whole point for creating this thread:

It is evident that God Created the angels. It is written that God Created man in His own image.

The evidence that life requires a Creator is strong and getting stronger.

Why on earth would any Christian continue to pay homage to a secular "theory" that pours gasoline on the flames of disbelief while that theory has failed on every level and looks sillier by the day?

"Evolution is the greatest engine for atheism ever invented"
-Dr. Wil Provine

When did your god create angels and provide evidence to support your claim.
Do you remember?
In the beginning?

Please read and pay close attention to the title of this forum. You should quickly notice that it was created for believers.

Now if you want to have a rational conversation concerning the question of God's existence, I am happy to do that. But that is a different question.

I asked when were angels created, can't answer?
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/18/2014 11:04:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 8:15:10 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2014 5:28:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

No, they are now an endangered species as their natural habitat (the superstitious mind) has shrunk over the years. The remaining population is thought to be unviable due to inbreeding and poor diet (lack of human prayers).

"Angels don't just sing at Christmastime. For most Americans, they're a year-round presence. A new Associated Press-GfK poll shows that 77 percent of adults believe these ethereal beings are real." ~ http://www.cbsnews.com...

It doesn't sound like they are approaching extinction just yet ...

I worry about Americans, I really do.

Luckily the rest of the developed world maintains its sanity and belief in mythical beings is not dependent on a mere popularity contest.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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11/18/2014 11:37:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/18/2014 11:04:33 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/18/2014 8:15:10 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2014 5:28:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/16/2014 1:02:52 PM, joepalcsak wrote:
Did the angels "evolve"?

No, they are now an endangered species as their natural habitat (the superstitious mind) has shrunk over the years. The remaining population is thought to be unviable due to inbreeding and poor diet (lack of human prayers).

"Angels don't just sing at Christmastime. For most Americans, they're a year-round presence. A new Associated Press-GfK poll shows that 77 percent of adults believe these ethereal beings are real." ~ http://www.cbsnews.com...

It doesn't sound like they are approaching extinction just yet ...

I worry about Americans, I really do.

Luckily the rest of the developed world maintains its sanity and belief in mythical beings is not dependent on a mere popularity contest.

Close to 90% of the world's population feels related to spirituality in some way. It's not just Americans.