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Why Christ is Not Man But God

Bendido
Posts: 421
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11/22/2014 2:50:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
No debate would be feasible tackling an issue that Christ is man. "Christ is man" does not even qualify as proposition since Christ had pre-existence. He was not man such that his "manhood" was only a manifestation from a greater form. A proposition is something offered that can be accepted or denied and therefore must be complete in itself.

Granting that Christ was man, it was only true in His earthly body in his more or less 33 years on earth and after having served a purpose, was subject to a resurrection that enabled him to return to his true form. Such 33 years therefore was only a temporary state. More yet, it was not the beginning of Christ"s existence since he already was before the creation of the world. Therefore, claiming that Christ is man and adding more lies that he was and will remain a man when he comes back is indeed a pack of lies. That is not possible with the frailties of human beings.

Notice this Pasugo of the Iglesia ni Cristo that insists on calling Christ as man: before, now, and later on. On Page 34 of Pasugo dated April 1968:

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To use the word "nature" in describing the being of the Lord Jesus Christ is certainly gross ignorance of the Bible and the meaning of the word nature itself. Before the "nature" that we know existed, the Son of God which will later be called Jesus Christ, existed. And that is according to the Holy Scriptures.

JOHN 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

The Son was with the Father even before the creation of everything that exists.

PROVERBS 30:4

Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son"s name, if thou canst tell?

He existed with the Father from "everlasting"

PSALMS 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

MICAH 5:2

But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

The prophesied Messiah whose "going forth have been from everlasting" is undoubtedly Jesus Christ born in Bethlehem of Judea.

One important thing to consider is that the Lord Jesus Christ was born of man, but he was born of God first.

PSALMS 2:7

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

It was God himself who had begotten the Son.

This was further confirmed by the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Hebrews.

HEBREWS 1:5

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

HEBREWS 5:5

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.

People may say that believers are also begotten of the Father; but what is the difference between Jesus Christ being called the "only begotten Son" and "the only begotten of the Father" and of believers being called begotten of God?

The Son is the only begotten of the Father and the only begotten Son in the sense that He came from the being or "the bosom" of the Father.

JOHN 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

JOHN 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

I TIMOTHY 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Believers are begotten not in the sense that they came from the being of the Father but rather by the word of God.

I PETER 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

The pre- existence of Jesus Christ is very explicitly recorded in the Bible. When we say pre-existence we mean that before He was born or manifested in the flesh, he had already existed " but at a higher level of existence.

JOHN 8:56-58

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Scriptures say Jesus Christ taught the prophets of Israel before He was born in the flesh!

I PETER 1:10-11

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

If Christ did not exist before He was born of Mary, how can His spirit guide the prophets of old? He even guided and followed the Israelites in their wandering in the desert.

I CORINTHIANS 10:1-4

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The claim of the Iglesia ni Cristo that Jesus Christ existed only when He was born of Mary is a blatant lie! On the Pasugo of the Iglesia ni Cristo of April 1939, on Page 21, this is written [Translation ours].

Was there a Christ in the beginning before the world began? The answer is clear " according to what the angel said to Mary " she will conceive and bear a son and will be called Jesus ( Luke 1:31). From the answer of this angel, the Christ started from the womb of the Virgin Mary upon the power of the Holy Spirit., and the child to be born will be called Holy, the Son of God (Luke 1:35). If that is the case, why was Apostle Paul saying that Christ is the first of all things created, under his power all things were made, and all things were subject to him? This teaching of Apostle Paul is true because all things created were subject to Christ. But there was no Christ yet but simply a plan that all things created will be subject to him. That is the reason he was born of Virgin Mary.

Observe the word "plan" used. It is an intentional insertion in the thought it wants to convey and that Apostle Paul is even used to lend credence to this "plan" thing. The word is meant to deny the pre- existence of Christ and mark the start of Christ on the womb of Mary. "Plan" is to reinforce the belief that Christ never existed before. Below is the original version in Tagalog.

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But Christ is called in the Bible as the wisdom of God.

I CORINTHIANS 1:24

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Such wisdom existed before the creation of everything.

I CORINTHIANS 2:6-7

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to naught:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

I CORINTHIANS 2:8

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The Lord of glory that was crucified called the wisdom of God is the Lord Jesus.
Bendido
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11/22/2014 2:51:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ministers of Manalo argue that Christ cannot be the wisdom of God because in the Bible, wisdom is being spoken of in the feminine gender. This is another ignorance that is deeply embedded in the minds of the INC ministers. I thought they went to school and had at least some exposure to Spanish and poetry.

Paul E. Koptak, Editor of Living Faith and professor of communication, gave an informed commentary on why Wisdom is referred to as "she." In sum, he said the use of she was not necessarily driven by any intrinsic femininity of wisdom. His long discussions point out that the practice simply grows out of either of the following: 1) Use of figure of speech called personification, but that Wisdom is not literally a woman because it is not an actual person; 2) Use of genre. What were we reading? A poem of praise? Then we are not reading a technical definition; 3) Gender in language or grammatical gender. He: explains this as follows -

In English, the word wisdom is grammatically neuter, but not so in Hebrew. The Hebrew word is chokmoth, and it is grammatically feminine. In Hebrew, it would have been natural to speak of wisdom as a "she."

".Solomon used the literary tool of personification to extol the inanimate and abstract idea of wisdom as if it were a real person. By doing so, Solomon communicated a vivid illustration of the blessings of being wise. In personifying wisdom, it was necessary to use the appropriate pronouns. Since a person is not referred to as an "it," Wisdom as an antecedent requires feminine personal pronouns. The grammatical construction is an artifact of the process of personification. In other words, since the word wisdom is feminine (in Hebrew grammar), Wisdom personified becomes a "she" to satisfy the demands of diction"not to add information to its object. (http://www.gotquestions.org...).

The use of "she" therefore to refer to Wisdom is not a license to refuse to acknowledge Christ as the wisdom of God! It is a lousy excuse and an evil one.

The Iglesia ni Cristo agree and teach that Christ is the rock upon whom the church was built. But do they understand what ROCK means if they insist on looking at Christ as man? Their publication, translated as "Revelation," Page 33 indicates otherwise. In the form of Q and A, they explain -

The Revelation

How did Christ set up his church? Christ was born a new man. Him and those who believed in him. How did Christ bear this new man? In MattHEW 16:18, this is what is said -

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

This is how Christ created a new man: He established his church on a rock. Who is the rock upon which his church is built? In Acts 4:10, 11, it is said "

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

What is the rock? According to Apostle Peter, Christ is the rock. Therefore, Christ established his church on himself because he is the rock. Christ set up on himself his own church, that is what to himself and what is he to the church? In Colossians. 1:18 this is written "

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence.

ANG PAGBUBUNGYAG Page 33

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The above is their original version. The rock mentioned in Matthew 6:16-18 in the Greek manuscripts is also in the feminine gender. This is what is written in Strong"s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

G4073

`0;^1;`4;`1;^5;

petra

pet"-ra

Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): " rock.

(https://archive.org...)

Whether it is classified in the feminine gender or not, the Bible has its own interpretation of words. In fact Christ likened himself to a hen. Would you now begrudge his being wisdom of God?

MATTHEW 23:37 (KJV)
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and you would not!

There is no other wisdom of God mentioned in the Bible which existed with God from everlasting except the Lord of glory.

PROVERBS 8:12, 22-31

12 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

He was also the wisdom who sent the prophets and the apostles.

LUKE 11:49

Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

It is very clear in the scriptures that the Lord Jesus Christ was the one who sent the prophets and the apostles.

JOHN 20:21

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

MATTHEW 23:34

Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

If the Son according to the Bible came from the bosom of the Father or from His very being then we are sure that He is not by "nature" a man, but God!

JOHN 13:3

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

JOHN 6:38

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Man began to exist on earth when God formed him out of the dust of the ground. But it was different with Jesus who did not come from dust.

GENESIS 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Lord Jesus Christ came from heaven, from God more particularly from the bosom of the Father. He was called man when he was manifested in the flesh or has taken the form of a man.

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

To believe that Jesus Christ is a mere man from birth up to his coming again is surely denying the truth and salvation.

JEREMIAH 17:5

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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11/22/2014 3:15:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
i cant respond to all what you have wrote there but here 5 reasons why he is not God according to Jesus and not other people saying about him, what did he say?

1 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Jesus (pbuh) rejecting being good in the sense that God is good.

2 top clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (disciples), and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

God is the father of everybody Jesus and the disciples, God of everybody including Jesus.

3 Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

If he was God how its not his teaching?

4 in all the versions of the Bibles we have, with all the manuscripts (20,000+) not even 1 manuscript is the same with another one, with all the corruption, change addition and deletion THERE IS NO 1 STATEMENT WHERE JESUS SAYING "IM GOD OR WORSHIP ME". even the writes couldnt push such idea to the mouth of Jesus may peace be upon him.

5 read john 10:22-35, where the jews accused him claiming to be God because he said "i and my father are one" and Jesus rebuked them. this is the final punch.TOOOSSS.....
Never fart near dog
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11/22/2014 3:19:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bendido,

Your fundamental error is that you keep quoting from a 100% human made Story book of your apparent preferred choice?

The total sum of evidence that a literal Supernatural being is or was ever involved in ANY acclaimed holy-text, remains a constant zero!
Emilrose
Posts: 2,479
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11/22/2014 3:50:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why are using OT verses to substantiate your claim? Absolutely no of them apply to the assertion of: "Christ being "Messiah", or even: "Christ being G-d".

This entirely contradicts OT teaching of the Messiah--he will *not* be part of a trinity and he *will* be a man born of both human parents.

How do propose that Jesus can be G-d when it was supposedly in him (in Christianity) that decided to put him here? Do as wish with the NT but it's fallacious to actually use the OT to support such arguments
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
POPOO5560
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11/22/2014 5:14:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/22/2014 3:50:41 AM, Emilrose wrote:
Why are using OT verses to substantiate your claim? Absolutely no of them apply to the assertion of: "Christ being "Messiah", or even: "Christ being G-d".

This entirely contradicts OT teaching of the Messiah--he will *not* be part of a trinity and he *will* be a man born of both human parents.

How do propose that Jesus can be G-d when it was supposedly in him (in Christianity) that decided to put him here? Do as wish with the NT but it's fallacious to actually use the OT to support such arguments

there is such a statement in the OT where it says he will have mother and father?
Never fart near dog
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11/22/2014 5:27:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. Paul must be understood within his Jewish contexts. (p. 160)

(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)
Gentorev
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11/22/2014 4:58:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Bendigo wrote............No debate would be feasible tackling an issue that Christ is man. "Christ is man" does not even qualify as proposition since Christ had pre-existence. He was not man such that his "manhood" was only a manifestation from a greater form. A proposition is something lies offered that can be accepted or denied and therefore must be complete in itself.

Gentorev responds......."CHRIST" means the anointed one. Christ, (The Lesser Jahweh) is the one who was anointed by the Most High to stand before his face into all eternity, and Christ was not the man Jesus, who was filled with the spirit=mind of the Lord, who manifested himself through his obedient servant, [The man Jesus].

Bendigo wrote...........Granting that Christ was man, it was only true in His earthly body in his more or less 33 years on earth and after having served a purpose, was subject to a resurrection that enabled him to return to his true form. Such 33 years therefore was only a temporary state. More yet, it was not the beginning of Christ"s existence since he already was before the creation of the world. Therefore, claiming that Christ is man and adding more lies that he was and will remain a man when he comes back is indeed a pack of. That is not possible with the frailties of human beings.

Gentorev replies........ Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, the name of the god who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Peter, in reference to Jesus, confirms that he was that man. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, Just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

The man Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which he was commanded to say by our saviour.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in him who sent me, has eternal life.
So, in order to receive eternal life we must believe in "Who I Am" who chose the man Jesus through whom he spoke to us.

John 17: 11; HOLY Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, the name that you gave to me, etc. (What is the name of our heavenly Father, the name that our Father gave to his faithful servant Jesus?)

John 17: 3; And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Acts 3:19; "Repent then and turn to God, (Not to Jesus, but to God) so that He (God) will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and He will send Jesus, who is the Messiah that he has already CHOSEN for you. The man Jesus, was chosen and made both Lord and saviour by "Who I Am".

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom i am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was hear to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

Jesus, whom God raised to life on the first day of the festival of "First Fruits" is the first of many brothers and sisters to be chosen from the body of mankind to be conformed to the image of the second man, they are spiritual beings who will live on earth among mankind, and Jesus is the cornerstone to the new glorious immortal Temple of the Lord, which is to replace, (on this earth, as the supreme ruler,) his mortal temporary tabernacle, which is the body of mankind, where, in the inner most sanctuary of his temporary tabernacle he currently dwells, (For the kingdom of God is within you). And it is our brother Jesus (After his transformation to a light being) who says in Revelation 3: 21; "To those who win the victory I will give the right , to sit beside me on my throne, (Which is the throne of our Father) Just as I have been victorious and now sit beside my/our Father on his throne.

1st Timothy 1:1; From Paul, and apostle of Christ Jesus by order of God our saviour and Christ Jesus our hope.

Jesus was the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his obedient servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear THE IMAGE OF Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord, which is to replace God"s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, MAN was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN who is crowned with glory, we have not yet seen this happen, but we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites they; who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father"s throne of Godhead within the creation.

And as Paul says, "all creation Visible and Invisible, which includes even the angels, will bow at our feet."

John 20: 17; Jesus says to Mary, Go to my brothers and say to them, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. The Greek word, "anabaino" used here by John, means to "ascend or go up" and can in no way be translated as "Return" which is an erroneous interpretation of the verse found in many bibles, which erroneous interpretation was made by people such as yourself, who refuse to accept that Jesus was a human being born of the seed of Adam.