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The talking Serpent

Skyangel
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11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.
If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.
If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 3:25:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Now lets look at the principle Jesus taught about those who believe in him never dying.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now imagine that talking serpent representing Jesus and saying those words to Eve. It is exactly the same principle.

He is basically saying, "believe me, you will not die"

Do the believers in Jesus still die?
Are Jesus words also ambiguous and refer only to spiritual death and not to physical death?

Now look at the scripture which compares Jesus to the serpent.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

The son of man which is Jesus is compared to the serpent which healed people in Numbers 21
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Moses serpent did not talk at all so he obviously told no lies either.

Now some of might think it is blasphemy to compare Jesus to a serpent but the words in John 3:14 are attributed to Jesus himself. Jesus made that comparison.

Jesus also obviously admired and respected the serpent because he told his disciples to be as wise as a serpent. Why would he do that if a serpent represented the devil?

Matt 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Compare that with Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

The word subtle ( aruwm) in the Hebrew means shrewd, crafty, sly, sensible, prudent.

The same word is used in Proverbs 14:18 The simple inherit folly: but the prudent (aruwm) are crowned with knowledge.

Anyway, basically the God of the bible says "You will die if you don't do as I say" and the serpent says "No, believe me, you won't die, you will be enlightened" ( Gen 3:4-5)
and Jesus also says "No you won't die if you believe me". (John 11:25)
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/23/2014 4:14:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
Just to clarify, Story book god DID NOT directly tell Eve. (Gen. 2:16-17)

At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.
If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.
If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.
I have in fact many times previously provided this accurate information, instead of the BS others try to foist upon us, but you get a +1 from me for catching on!
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/23/2014 5:10:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.
If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.
If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.

Well done. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/23/2014 5:30:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 5:27:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
Did it talk with a lithhhhhp?

Yeth, yeth it did.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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11/23/2014 5:32:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 5:30:08 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 5:27:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
Did it talk with a lithhhhhp?

Yeth, yeth it did.

Big breaths.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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11/23/2014 6:59:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Actually they died; they lost their life and were forced to this death. And because of that Jesus was sent to show us the way back to life.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:14
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/23/2014 7:41:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 6:59:41 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Actually they died; they lost their life and were forced to this death. And because of that Jesus was sent to show us the way back to life.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:14

Being innately dependent on the Tree of Life to make them ' live forever ' A & Eve were thus innately Created MORTAL and Story book god again told more lies by claiming they brought literal Death upon themselves. -

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (I Corinthians 15:21) KJV Story book propaganda
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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11/23/2014 8:01:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 6:59:41 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Actually they died; they lost their life and were forced to this death. And because of that Jesus was sent to show us the way back to life.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:14

900yrs dude you need to take a euro somewhere and see if you can buy yourself a life.,
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/23/2014 8:46:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.
If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.
If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.

False prophets are one's who use the knowledge of God that has been testified to by God's chosen servant for their own selfish purpose. You are one of those false prophets who are so deceived by your own interpretations that you actually believe your lies.

For one thing, there is no being called the Serpent, Devil, Satan, Lucifer, etc. They are symbolic names that mean the same thing as the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which is the visible world that all God's people believed was real. They actually believe that good and evil exists without understanding that there is no definition to either word. They are words of deception because each individual has a different view of what good and evil are. This means there is no Truth in either word.

You are a very persistent false prophet who keeps lying to everyone in this forum, even when you are told by our Creator that you're lying..
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 2:03:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:14:02 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
Just to clarify, Story book god DID NOT directly tell Eve. (Gen. 2:16-17)

That depends on how you want to look at the scriptures.
If you take into consideration that God called them both Adam, God may very well have told both of them at the same time.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

However, it really makes no difference if Adam told Eve or if God told Eve. The fact remains she knew about it. Her words ( Gen 3:3) to the talking serpent indicate that. When you really think about it, they also indicate that God said it to her and not Adam otherwise she should have said "Adam said not to eat of it" or "Adam told me not to touch it."

I am sure you can follow that logic.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/23/2014 2:18:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:03:01 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:14:02 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
Just to clarify, Story book god DID NOT directly tell Eve. (Gen. 2:16-17)

That depends on how you want to look at the scriptures.
If you take into consideration that God called them both Adam, God may very well have told both of them at the same time.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

However, it really makes no difference if Adam told Eve or if God told Eve. The fact remains she knew about it. Her words ( Gen 3:3) to the talking serpent indicate that. When you really think about it, they also indicate that God said it to her and not Adam otherwise she should have said "Adam said not to eat of it" or "Adam told me not to touch it."

I am sure you can follow that logic.

The logic makes sense, but the subject matter might as well be fiction. It is comparable to discussing the character development of fictional characters in a literature class. Creative writing at it's best. ;)
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 2:19:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:17:06 AM, Composer wrote:
The Father of Lies / Devil = Main/Greatest Satan = Story book god!

QED


Jesus told the religious Pharisees that their father was the devil too.

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Who was the one who threatened Adam and Eve with death in the beginning? The first mention of death came from the God which the Pharisees later worshiped not from any serpent in the garden.

Gen 2:17 ................thou shalt surely die.

Readers should also think about the fact that if God was talking about spiritual death on the same day they ate of the tree, That God causes spiritual death ( darkness) rather than spiritual life ( Light).

Does being enlightened , gaining knowledge and wisdom, cause a person to live in darkness ( ignorance and foolishness ) or to live in the light ( knowledge and understanding) ?

If Christians want to believe Adam and Eve died spiritually on the day they partook of knowledge, please explain how they died spiritually by being enlightened?
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 3:13:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 6:59:41 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Actually they died; they lost their life and were forced to this death. And because of that Jesus was sent to show us the way back to life.

Nothing in Genesis indicates they died on the same day they ate of the tree Brad.
The story indicates they did not die till hundreds of years later.

When God was busy cursing them and the land, God himself indicated that they would live longer than the same day they ate of the tree.

First God cursed the serpent (Gen 3:14)
Then God put enmity ( hostility, opposition) between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman ( Gen 3:15)
Then he decided to inflict pain and sorrow on Eve when she gave birth to children (3:16)
That in itself indicates they did not die on the same day they partook of knowledge. If they did God would have had no reason to be talking about her children due to them not being able to conceive or give birth to any children in one day.
Then just for good measure God decided to curse the ground with thorns and thistles as well and make Adam suffer for the rest of his life which was obviously a lot longer than one day. (Gen 3:17-18)

In Gen 3:19, God is talking about the physical creation of Adam from dust and tells him he will return to dust. However, that took 930 years before it happened. It did not happen the same day as he ate of the tree.

Yet there is always the possibility that God has no sense of Earthly time.
We should be ignorant of these things
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Adam was 930 years old when he died. Not one day old. However if you calculate the day according to the concept in 2 Peter 3:8 which makes the day a thousand years long, Adam did die on the same "day".

Gen5:5. And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

That would mean Eve had all her children an the same day before she died too.

It seems God was pretty upset and cursed the whole planet and all people of the future as well as Adam and Eve just because they gained the same knowledge that he had.

Now why would any loving supernatural entity do such a thing?
Why curse the whole Earth just because people gained knowledge?

Do believers perceive a curse to be something good or something evil?

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
Curse
magical words that are said to cause trouble or bad luck for someone or the condition that results when such words are said

a cause of trouble or bad luck something.

a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one

Do believers still want to believe their God would not harm anyone and did not create evil on Earth?
It was God, not the serpent, who invoked the curse on Earth.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God clearly admits to being the creator of evil. Yet believers refuse to believe it and want to blame the serpent who they perceive as representing the devil, for it.

Where in the bible does any serpent curse the ground or inflict pain and sorrow on people?
The entity doing it all in Genesis 3 is God.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 3:35:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 7:41:33 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/23/2014 6:59:41 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Actually they died; they lost their life and were forced to this death. And because of that Jesus was sent to show us the way back to life.

Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. He who doesn't love his brother remains in death.
1 John 3:14

Being innately dependent on the Tree of Life to make them ' live forever ' A & Eve were thus innately Created MORTAL and Story book god again told more lies by claiming they brought literal Death upon themselves. -

That reasoning is logical enough and sounds true. However, if they were created in the image of God and were created mortal, does that not also make God mortal rather than immortal? Anyone immortal obviously cannot die.
Can an immortal God die? Can an immortal son of God die?

If God was immortal and could not die, he would not be omnipotent because he would not have the power to die even though he obviously had the power to create death and kill people in the story.
To be omnipotent one would need to have the power and ability to die as well as have the power and ability to live.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (I Corinthians 15:21) KJV Story book propaganda

That scripture would make God a mortal man not an immortal supernatural entity since it was God in the bible story who inflicted death in the first place. It was not Adam ( humanity) who invented or created death. Neither was it the serpent in the creation story.

It is also man or mankind of the medical profession who do all they can to bring the dead back to life while there is still hope and extend human life to give them a chance to live a bit longer in spite of fully knowing that we will all die eventually.

We mortals love life even though it can be harsh and very painful at times. Some obviously love life more than others and some hate it so much they take their own lives because they convince themselves that death will be better.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 3:57:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 8:46:14 AM, bornofgod wrote:

False prophets are one's who use the knowledge of God that has been testified to by God's chosen servant for their own selfish purpose. You are one of those false prophets who are so deceived by your own interpretations that you actually believe your lies.

When February comes and you are still alive we will see who the false prophet is Brad.
You prophesied your own death in January and I don't believe your prophecy will come to pass.
When you are still alive you said you would come back here and apologize to us and admit you were wrong so I am anticipating an apology from you in February. Then you can also admit that you are so deceived by your own interpretations that you actually believe your own lies and delusions. Your own words will come back to bite you Brad. You will be judged with your own words which you use to judge others.

For one thing, there is no being called the Serpent, Devil, Satan, Lucifer, etc. They are symbolic names that mean the same thing as the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which is the visible world that all God's people believed was real. They actually believe that good and evil exists without understanding that there is no definition to either word. They are words of deception because each individual has a different view of what good and evil are. This means there is no Truth in either word.

I understand there is no talking serpent or devil or lucifer. I understand these things are symbolic. They are merely references to things which humans perceive as bad or evil in this world.
Humans define good and evil in their own minds and in the dictionaries of this world. If you want to believe they have no meaning or definition then go ahead and believe what you want. Be as ignorant as you want to be. Hide your head in whatever sand pit you want to hide in.
The truth is that the truth itself is ambiguous. It has two sides to it and can be perceived in opposite ways. It is the same kind of paradox as life itself. It is a coin with two sides the same as day and night is a coin with opposite sides yet is still the same day.
Things exist and do not exist at the very same time Brad. All of us are constantly passing away in the process of changing through the life we live. The person you were ten years ago has passed away with time yet still exists within you as your " inner child". The person you will be in ten years from today still has not arrived yet. He is coming in ten years time while at the same time also being here within you. He is your "inner adult" Hopefully you will grow up into him one day.

You are a very persistent false prophet who keeps lying to everyone in this forum, even when you are told by our Creator that you're lying..

Echo those words back at yourself because they apply to you Brad. You are talking to yourself.
I believe myself as much as you believe yourself and I find my own thoughts to be far more logical in my own mind than yours are.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 4:15:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:18:37 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:03:01 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:14:02 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
Just to clarify, Story book god DID NOT directly tell Eve. (Gen. 2:16-17)

That depends on how you want to look at the scriptures.
If you take into consideration that God called them both Adam, God may very well have told both of them at the same time.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

However, it really makes no difference if Adam told Eve or if God told Eve. The fact remains she knew about it. Her words ( Gen 3:3) to the talking serpent indicate that. When you really think about it, they also indicate that God said it to her and not Adam otherwise she should have said "Adam said not to eat of it" or "Adam told me not to touch it."

I am sure you can follow that logic.

The logic makes sense, but the subject matter might as well be fiction. It is comparable to discussing the character development of fictional characters in a literature class. Creative writing at it's best. ;)

You must admit that even if it is all fiction, the writers were brilliant and far more creative than any fiction writer today. After all the literature is timeless and one of the most controversial collection of books in history. The writers managed to convince more than half the world that talking animals really did exist and a man really was created from literal dust and some magic tree existed in some magic garden once upon a time, not to mention the dragons with seven heads etc . All these things obviously create various different perceptions and interpretations and doctrines amongst people which all create division amongst them due to disagreement regarding what they perceive.

The fact is most people today are too lazy to really study the ancient literature in a metaphorical sense in order to try to understand the message and the principles conveyed through the stories. They seem to find it easier to just believe the stories with some "childish faith" in the same way children believe fairy tale characters are real.

Any fictional story can still convey a very true message in spite of the characters not existing in reality.

The basic message in the bible about humans loving one another is not such a bad message. It works most of the time. There is far more to love than just fuzzy feelings.
jodybirdy
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11/23/2014 4:23:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:15:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:18:37 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:03:01 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:14:02 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
Just to clarify, Story book god DID NOT directly tell Eve. (Gen. 2:16-17)

That depends on how you want to look at the scriptures.
If you take into consideration that God called them both Adam, God may very well have told both of them at the same time.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

However, it really makes no difference if Adam told Eve or if God told Eve. The fact remains she knew about it. Her words ( Gen 3:3) to the talking serpent indicate that. When you really think about it, they also indicate that God said it to her and not Adam otherwise she should have said "Adam said not to eat of it" or "Adam told me not to touch it."

I am sure you can follow that logic.

The logic makes sense, but the subject matter might as well be fiction. It is comparable to discussing the character development of fictional characters in a literature class. Creative writing at it's best. ;)

You must admit that even if it is all fiction, the writers were brilliant and far more creative than any fiction writer today. After all the literature is timeless and one of the most controversial collection of books in history. The writers managed to convince more than half the world that talking animals really did exist and a man really was created from literal dust and some magic tree existed in some magic garden once upon a time, not to mention the dragons with seven heads etc . All these things obviously create various different perceptions and interpretations and doctrines amongst people which all create division amongst them due to disagreement regarding what they perceive.


The fact is most people today are too lazy to really study the ancient literature in a metaphorical sense in order to try to understand the message and the principles conveyed through the stories. They seem to find it easier to just believe the stories with some "childish faith" in the same way children believe fairy tale characters are real.

Any fictional story can still convey a very true message in spite of the characters not existing in reality.

The basic message in the bible about humans loving one another is not such a bad message. It works most of the time. There is far more to love than just fuzzy feelings.

Yes, I can definitely appreciate the creative effort that went into the old testament especially. And you are right in saying the impact such writing has made on people is very impressive.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 4:39:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:23:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:15:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:18:37 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:03:01 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:14:02 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
Just to clarify, Story book god DID NOT directly tell Eve. (Gen. 2:16-17)

That depends on how you want to look at the scriptures.
If you take into consideration that God called them both Adam, God may very well have told both of them at the same time.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

However, it really makes no difference if Adam told Eve or if God told Eve. The fact remains she knew about it. Her words ( Gen 3:3) to the talking serpent indicate that. When you really think about it, they also indicate that God said it to her and not Adam otherwise she should have said "Adam said not to eat of it" or "Adam told me not to touch it."

I am sure you can follow that logic.

The logic makes sense, but the subject matter might as well be fiction. It is comparable to discussing the character development of fictional characters in a literature class. Creative writing at it's best. ;)

You must admit that even if it is all fiction, the writers were brilliant and far more creative than any fiction writer today. After all the literature is timeless and one of the most controversial collection of books in history. The writers managed to convince more than half the world that talking animals really did exist and a man really was created from literal dust and some magic tree existed in some magic garden once upon a time, not to mention the dragons with seven heads etc . All these things obviously create various different perceptions and interpretations and doctrines amongst people which all create division amongst them due to disagreement regarding what they perceive.


The fact is most people today are too lazy to really study the ancient literature in a metaphorical sense in order to try to understand the message and the principles conveyed through the stories. They seem to find it easier to just believe the stories with some "childish faith" in the same way children believe fairy tale characters are real.

Any fictional story can still convey a very true message in spite of the characters not existing in reality.

The basic message in the bible about humans loving one another is not such a bad message. It works most of the time. There is far more to love than just fuzzy feelings.

Yes, I can definitely appreciate the creative effort that went into the old testament especially. And you are right in saying the impact such writing has made on people is very impressive.

Words are just marks on a page or sounds we make in order to attempt to communicate with one another. They are meaningless unless humans apply meaning to them. Can you understand Hebrew or Japanese symbols for example? Can you make any sense of a language you do not understand?
The way people perceive and interpret words, symbols and sounds, can have an amazing affect on them. They can make people happy or sad, make them laugh or cry, calm or agitated, etc.
That fact makes me think and believe there is far more to the human mind or psyche than just physical chemical reactions because how on earth does looking at any symbols or marks on a page or hearing different sounds create chemical reactions in peoples minds and cause different emotions and reactions through their bodies?
Human reactions are due to the way people perceive, interpret and filter everything through their physical senses.
jodybirdy
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11/23/2014 4:48:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:39:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:23:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:15:41 PM, Skyangel wrote:

The logic makes sense, but the subject matter might as well be fiction. It is comparable to discussing the character development of fictional characters in a literature class. Creative writing at it's best. ;)

You must admit that even if it is all fiction, the writers were brilliant and far more creative than any fiction writer today. After all the literature is timeless and one of the most controversial collection of books in history. The writers managed to convince more than half the world that talking animals really did exist and a man really was created from literal dust and some magic tree existed in some magic garden once upon a time, not to mention the dragons with seven heads etc . All these things obviously create various different perceptions and interpretations and doctrines amongst people which all create division amongst them due to disagreement regarding what they perceive.


The fact is most people today are too lazy to really study the ancient literature in a metaphorical sense in order to try to understand the message and the principles conveyed through the stories. They seem to find it easier to just believe the stories with some "childish faith" in the same way children believe fairy tale characters are real.

Any fictional story can still convey a very true message in spite of the characters not existing in reality.

The basic message in the bible about humans loving one another is not such a bad message. It works most of the time. There is far more to love than just fuzzy feelings.

Yes, I can definitely appreciate the creative effort that went into the old testament especially. And you are right in saying the impact such writing has made on people is very impressive.

Words are just marks on a page or sounds we make in order to attempt to communicate with one another. They are meaningless unless humans apply meaning to them. Can you understand Hebrew or Japanese symbols for example? Can you make any sense of a language you do not understand?
The way people perceive and interpret words, symbols and sounds, can have an amazing affect on them. They can make people happy or sad, make them laugh or cry, calm or agitated, etc.
That fact makes me think and believe there is far more to the human mind or psyche than just physical chemical reactions because how on earth does looking at any symbols or marks on a page or hearing different sounds create chemical reactions in peoples minds and cause different emotions and reactions through their bodies?
Human reactions are due to the way people perceive, interpret and filter everything through their physical senses.

You are speaking of emotions. Of course we have emotions and what causes them is external and internal stimuli. We are sentient... as are most animals. I'm not sure if we have a soul, but if we did it would most likely be linked to our sentience. And with that being said then animals would have souls too. But that's just my interpretation. I'm not saying that we have a "spirit" or a "soul". What I am saying is that IF we do, then so do animals. So that opens up a whole new conversation.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
MadCornishBiker
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11/23/2014 5:14:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.

And they both did. The fat that their death took a l;ong time to comlete does nto negate that fact.

We start to die the moment we are conceived, Adam and Eve started the moment they sinned.

Satan, in the guise of the serpent, lied.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.

And they did, their death simply took long ebnough for them to have children and start teh human race.

You are every bit as good sa SAtan at perverting scripture to your ends, as he did when trying to tempt Jesus in the wilderness.

Had you not noticed from scripture that everything God does takes time from the moment it starts to it's eventual completion?

The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

There are a number of ways of looking at that.

They slowly started to die, not jsut on teh day they sinned, but the moment they sinned, that death simply took sufficient time to happen for them to have sufficxient sons and daughters to make a good basis for the huiman race.

Also as Peter tells us at 2 Peter 3:8
ASV(i) 8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Spo to God that "day" may well have been 1,000 years to Adam and Eve.

Both of the above work and prove Satan, as the serpent, a liar.


Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.

Well, there is that oen also after all Christ also described some living people as "dead" because i his eyes they were spiritually dead

Matthew 8:22
ASV(i) 22 But Jesus saith unto him, Follow me; and leave the dead to bury their own dead.

So that too works, though I confgess I had forgotten that one since the first of the ones I have shown you is enough for me.

If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

They may have been ambiguous to us, but I am sure Adam would have known what was meant, and God may well have explained it more fully than scripture tells us.

However. You say Christians have to "spiritualise it" and in a sense you are right, butcause scripture ios frequently more spiritual than literal, as Paul describes.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15
ASV(i) 14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.

That means that your undertanding, or lack of it, puts you firmly in the "physical" category, sicne you fail to understand things whihc to such as I are obvious.


The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.

No it does not, it only remains that th process of death started on that day did nnot end that same day. Again, nothing unusual for things God does.

So again, Satan is shown to be a liar.

If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)


Howevr even though eh was lying about teh idea of physical death he could, as you display by your doubt shown above, have been referring to thier spiritual death. Whichever he was refrring to he was still lying.

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Yes, and a fat lot of good that has done mankind. We have suffered from and for that ever since, dying and suffering when man was never intended to die at all.

She certainly never learned anything that benefitted her or her decendants, thereforeSatan was lyi8ng when he inferred that her learning that would be beneficial to her.


Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Yes they had been naked before and to them there was nothing wrong in that, until they were made to feel guilty about it. Not exactly beneficial, they would have been better off not feeling tehre was anything unusualkl or worng in being naked.


Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Yes, and as I explain above that knowledge did neither of them, or us, anything but harm. Also, though they came to know what good and bad felt like to experience, they did not, and we still do not, have a clear idea of exactly what isa good and bad.

Again tehre was nothing beneficial about teh knowledge she gained.


God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

However Satan may have told Eve the truth about that one, but he neglected to tell her that it didn;t mean she would know the difference between good and bad, which she never did learn, nor have we even now learned it with any loevlel of consistency. So Satan still deceived her, or at least allowed her to deceive herself.


The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.

All yu have done is demonstrated exactly that. There really is no truth in him becayuse even when he tells the truth he does so to deceive jsut as he deceived Eve over what the "knowledge of good and bad" rally was, and wheter or not it was beneficial to her.

Sorry, but your argumentation is as Satanic and deceptive as his was.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 5:58:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 4:48:07 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:39:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 4:23:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

Yes, I can definitely appreciate the creative effort that went into the old testament especially. And you are right in saying the impact such writing has made on people is very impressive.

Words are just marks on a page or sounds we make in order to attempt to communicate with one another. They are meaningless unless humans apply meaning to them. Can you understand Hebrew or Japanese symbols for example? Can you make any sense of a language you do not understand?
The way people perceive and interpret words, symbols and sounds, can have an amazing affect on them. They can make people happy or sad, make them laugh or cry, calm or agitated, etc.
That fact makes me think and believe there is far more to the human mind or psyche than just physical chemical reactions because how on earth does looking at any symbols or marks on a page or hearing different sounds create chemical reactions in peoples minds and cause different emotions and reactions through their bodies?
Human reactions are due to the way people perceive, interpret and filter everything through their physical senses.

You are speaking of emotions. Of course we have emotions and what causes them is external and internal stimuli. We are sentient... as are most animals.

Yes but the stimuli cannot possibly always be just a chemical one like some on this site seem to believe. Words, are marks on a page not a chemical substance of any kind. You can press a few buttons on a keyboard on one end of the world and cause a person on another end of the world to laugh or cry depending on what buttons you push and how they personally interpret the marks which were created by pushing those buttons. That would make the stimuli "electronic" in a sense and for want of a better word. It would be created by waves of light or waves of sound not by chemicals.
The thing that stimulates the chemicals in the brain must be the energy ("electricity" or whatever word you want to use to describe it) which comes from our own interpretation of what we perceive.

I'm not sure if we have a soul, but if we did it would most likely be linked to our sentience. And with that being said then animals would have souls too. But that's just my interpretation. I'm not saying that we have a "spirit" or a "soul". What I am saying is that IF we do, then so do animals. So that opens up a whole new conversation.

That sounds logical enough to me.

I do not think we have a "soul" in the sense of that "soul" being something that is not part of us as a whole person. I think we ARE a soul according to the definition of "soul" that I personally comprehend from the words in the bible.
Let me attempt to explain.
The Hebrew word translated as soul is "NEPHESH"
According to the Strongs Lexicon ( H5315) it means...
*soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
*that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
*living being
*the man himself, self, person or individual

Consider the word "self" from the strongs definition... Are you your self or do you have a self?
Consider the word "Life". Are you a life in the sense of being a life form or are you some non life which has a life?
Consider the word "creature". Are you a creature or do you have a creature?
Consider all the individual words in the strongs definition and do the same thing. Ask youself if you are ( fill in the word) or if you have ( fill in the same word)

I come to the conclusion that we are a soul. We are a combination of all those words in the strongs definition.

We are creatures with a mind and various appetites, desires and emotions.
We are individuals with individual minds, individual emotions, etc.

There is no "ghost" inside us which is somehow separate from our body and after our physical death floats around as some disembodied "spirit" or "ghost" in some mysterious place waiting for a new body at some unknown future time.
Everything in our body works together to make a whole soul, a whole living being, a whole individual.

However, when we consider the thoughts and ideas which we share, those thoughts can be accepted or rejected by other people. Therefore they are not confined to one body alone. They can be in many different bodies at the same time. I can be in you and you can be in me in the sense of us both sharing what is on our minds. My thoughts end up in your mind and your thoughts end up in mine.
Therefore the physical body of thoughts or ideas is a corporate body and not confined to a single body at all.
Those thoughts could easily be perceived as being immortal since thoughts do not die at all as long as humans continue to accept them, embrace them and share them even if they only end up being shared as ancient fictions.
Immaterial things cannot die physically because they do not have any physical substance which can perish or be destroyed in any physical way.

I believe human physical bodies die but human thoughts go on for all eternity because we pass them down from one generation to the next and they continue to live in the "body corporate". (God)

That makes sense to me anyway. Whether you can make sense of it or not depends on how you interpret my words.
Vox_Veritas
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11/23/2014 6:07:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.
If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.
If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.

Let's put it this way:

Let's assume that the Book of Genesis was written by a baby eating Jew like you seem to think is the case. It's reasonable to assume that a single person could've developed that story, since it was so short. He could've thought it up in a single day, so...
How likely is it that an author would unwittingly have a gaping flaw in a story THAT simple which was meant to be the very religion of the Jewish people?
I find it unlikely; if it said "you'll die this day" and they didn't physically die this day, it's probably intentional.

Now, you say that the explanation that they died spiritually is supposedly pathetic, but that's just your opinion; that you think it's a pathetic explanation means absolutely nothing. No matter how pathetic it looks (to you and other anti-theists), it doesn't change anything.
Case closed.
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jodybirdy
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11/23/2014 7:06:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 6:07:08 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:
Christianity teaches that the talking serpent in the story of the garden of Eden represents the devil.
However, if you study the story carefully, the serpent cannot represent the devil at all because he did not tell any lies.
John 8:44 claims the devil is a liar and the father of all lies and there is no truth in him.

Let us try to find the lie the serpent told Eve.

The serpent in the story said.....
"Gen 3:1 ....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
That is not a lie since it is just a question.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eve also knew that since she told the serpent..
Gen 3:3 God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Now the fact are these.. God told Adam and Eve they would die on the same day they ate of the tree.
The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

Christians however like to spiritualise it all and claim they died spiritually on that day and died physically a lot later.
If that is the case Gods words regarding death were ambiguous and deceptive if they did not die in both the physical and spiritual sense of the word.

The fact remains that they did not die physically on the day they ate of the tree.
If the serpent was talking about physical death when he told Eve she would not die, he told the truth which would not be possible if he represented the devil since the bible clearly says the devil is a liar and the father of lies and there is no truth in him (John 8:44)

The next thing the serpent told ever was...
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Did the serpent tell the truth about that or was that a lie? Let's see...
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Gen3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

God verified the serpent told the truth. Their eyes had been opened, they knew good and evil, they had become like God.

The serpent told the truth and if he represented the devil he could not have told the truth due to there being no truth in him according to John 8:44.

Let's put it this way:

Let's assume that the Book of Genesis was written by a baby eating Jew like you seem to think is the case. It's reasonable to assume that a single person could've developed that story, since it was so short. He could've thought it up in a single day, so...
How likely is it that an author would unwittingly have a gaping flaw in a story THAT simple which was meant to be the very religion of the Jewish people?
I find it unlikely; if it said "you'll die this day" and they didn't physically die this day, it's probably intentional.

Now, you say that the explanation that they died spiritually is supposedly pathetic, but that's just your opinion; that you think it's a pathetic explanation means absolutely nothing. No matter how pathetic it looks (to you and other anti-theists), it doesn't change anything.
Case closed.

I understand how you feel about this. However, you say that the case is closed just like that? It doesn't work that way. She is logically finding the fallacies in scripture pointing out how often it contradicts itself. You can't close the case on that because it challenges blind belief. You know that.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 7:10:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 5:14:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Now previously God had told Adam he would die on the same day he ate of the tree.

And they both did. The fat that their death took a l;ong time to comlete does nto negate that fact.

I agree it does not negate the fact that they died eventually after 900 years.
However, in a physical sense they did not die the same day if we are talking about a day being made up of the evening and the morning as indicated in Genesis 1.
You need to face the fact that God told them they would die on the SAME DAY they ate of the tree. Do you accept and agree that God said that or not?
Here is the scripture again with the words made bold for you.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We start to die the moment we are conceived, Adam and Eve started the moment they sinned.

It is true that we all start to die the moment we are conceived but it is also true that we start to live the moment we are conceived. No one can live without dying and no one can die without living.

Satan, in the guise of the serpent, lied.

If someone told you you would die the same day as you ate poison and you died 900 years later, were they telling you the truth about you dying on the same day as you ate poison or not?

If I pretend I am the serpent and I come along and tell you that you won't die and I am referring to the day you eat poison, am I lying to you by saying you won't die on the same day you eat poison ? If I was trying to tell you that you won't die at all I would be lying to you because you would die 900 years later but we are not discussing 900 years later we are discussing the same day as they ate of the tree.
God said their death would be on the same day not 900 years later.
God could have said if you eat of the tree you will die in 900 years and you will suffer a lot in the meantime because death is a very slow process which starts the day you swallow the poison and ends before a thousand years are up. However he never explained that did he? He said the same day. Genesis makes a day the time between evening and morning not a thousand years.

We do not find the concept of a day being like a thousand years to God till we read 2 Peter 3:8. I am perfectly certain Adam and Eve did not have access to those scriptures at the time.

Even if you personally do want to hold on to the concept that 1day = 1000years, in a spiritual sense, you need to also take into account that a thousand years to God is like yesterday which is past tense and not future tense.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Therefore a day to God would be yesterday not tomorrow.

He would have told Adam(Mankind) that if they ate of the tree they would be dead yesterday.

Basically they were created mortal and were already dead in the sense of being spiritually ignorant, blind and in darkness.
When the spiritually dead (the ignorant) die their spiritual death is the kind of death which does not hurt them at all but rather results in spiritual life.

When Adam and Eve were created from dust they were created mortal. Their physical body was created from Earthly things. It was perishable. It was destructible. They were born dead. They were nothing but dust.
Spiritually they had no more knowledge of good and evil than a new born baby has. They were innocent. They were unaware of good and evil. They had no clue what it was. They had not been enlightened by the information. They were ignorant. They were spiritually dead and spiritually blind without the knowledge of God, the knowledge of good and evil.

When they partook of the knowledge they became enlightened. Their eyes were opened. ( Gen 3:5 )
They were no longer blind or in any kind of spiritual darkness. They became aware of themselves, they became aware of being naked, exposed, and it made them want to hide. They had become like God in that process. God even said so.......
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That implies that the whole process of being made in the image of God was not finished before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge. If it had been complete before that they would not have needed to do anything at all to "become as one of us" or gain the knowledge of God because they would have been created with it already in them.

That knowledge of good and evil makes people aware of what they really are. It makes them aware that they have two different sides to their character. They have a good side as well as an evil side. It makes us aware that we are our own worst enemies. It makes us realize that we are two part being which is both good and evil at the same time.
Now think about that concept of being both good and evil and consider how you were made in the image of another being who is also both good and evil.

Noone can possibly be all good without also having an evil side to them no matter how well they try to hide the evil side. It is in us and it is also in God whether you wish to admit it to yourself or not. We are no different to God. We are created in the image of good and evil. You need to understand both if you want to have any wisdom at all even if that wisdom is perceived as foolishness by those who cannot see or understand that any coin has two sides and you cannot have a one sided coin or any "being" which is all good and all one sided.

If God was all good and created us in his image all of us would be all good and no evil would exist at all. However none of us would have a clue what good meant because there would be nothing that was opposite to goodness with which to compare goodness.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 7:35:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 5:14:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

You are every bit as good sa SAtan at perverting scripture to your ends, as he did when trying to tempt Jesus in the wilderness.

I understand your point of view MCB and you are welcome to your opinion but I am not trying to tempt anyone or challenge anyone to do anything supernatural or magical like turn stones into bread or asking them to kill themselves by throwing themselves down from the top of a temple or to bow down and worship me instead of their God.
It is your own religion which has perverted your understanding of the scriptures. It is your own perception which keeps you trapped and bound.
When peoples minds have been twisted by their religions and their believe they are not twisted at all. When they come across a person who is trying to untangle or untwist the twisted minds, the twisted mind perceives that as becoming twisted instead of becoming untwisted.

Had you not noticed from scripture that everything God does takes time from the moment it starts to it's eventual completion?

Sure, life is a cycle which takes time to pass.
A day takes approximately a day to pass. It does not take a thousand years. According to Genesis 1, a day is made up of evening and morning.
The story in question is also in Genesis.

The serpent contradicted that statement and told Eve she would not die.
She did not die on the same day even if she did die eventually.
If you want to insist the serpent lied then God also lied.

God lied about them dying on the same day if you take a day to be composed of the evening and the morning.
The serpent lied about them not dying at all if he was referring to their life in general since they did eventually die.
However Jesus then tells the same lie when he tells people they will not die if they believe in him ( John 11:26) since people still die regardless of what they believe. Those words are also ambiguous if they are not referring to physical death but only to spiritual death.

Both are liars if you want to look at it like that. The reason is because both their statements are ambiguous. Whether they lied or not in the judgment of humans depends on how humans interpret their words.
If you look at every possible way of interpreting the words, you need to admit that everything that was said by both parties can be perceived as both a lie and also perceived as the truth. That, my friend is the whole truth of the matter.

That ambiguity is the reason the truth can be perceived as a lie and vice versa.
You need to get rid of your own bias to be able to see that.
Skyangel
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11/23/2014 7:44:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 5:14:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/23/2014 2:32:36 AM, Skyangel wrote:

The question is did Adam and Eve die on the same day they ate of the tree or not?
They obviously did not die physically since they went on to have children and I am sure they did not have all their children on the same day they ate of the tree.

There are a number of ways of looking at that.

They slowly started to die, not jsut on teh day they sinned, but the moment they sinned, that death simply took sufficient time to happen for them to have sufficxient sons and daughters to make a good basis for the huiman race.

Also as Peter tells us at 2 Peter 3:8
ASV(i) 8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Spo to God that "day" may well have been 1,000 years to Adam and Eve.

Both of the above work and prove Satan, as the serpent, a liar.


As I said, the words of both parties are ambiguous and depends on how you want to interpret them because they can be interpreted as the truth and also as a lie.
However you need to put aside your bias to see that.
It is a bit like arguing whether a day ( truth) is all light ( truth ) or all darkness ( lies)
The fact is that it is a combination of both and whether you see it as one or the other depends on whether you abide in the light or abide in darkness. You need to see it from both sides at the same time to see the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth.
bornofgod
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11/23/2014 7:55:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/23/2014 3:57:12 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/23/2014 8:46:14 AM, bornofgod wrote:

False prophets are one's who use the knowledge of God that has been testified to by God's chosen servant for their own selfish purpose. You are one of those false prophets who are so deceived by your own interpretations that you actually believe your lies.

When February comes and you are still alive we will see who the false prophet is Brad.
You prophesied your own death in January and I don't believe your prophecy will come to pass.
When you are still alive you said you would come back here and apologize to us and admit you were wrong so I am anticipating an apology from you in February. Then you can also admit that you are so deceived by your own interpretations that you actually believe your own lies and delusions. Your own words will come back to bite you Brad. You will be judged with your own words which you use to judge others.

For one thing, there is no being called the Serpent, Devil, Satan, Lucifer, etc. They are symbolic names that mean the same thing as the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil", which is the visible world that all God's people believed was real. They actually believe that good and evil exists without understanding that there is no definition to either word. They are words of deception because each individual has a different view of what good and evil are. This means there is no Truth in either word.

I understand there is no talking serpent or devil or lucifer. I understand these things are symbolic. They are merely references to things which humans perceive as bad or evil in this world.
Humans define good and evil in their own minds and in the dictionaries of this world. If you want to believe they have no meaning or definition then go ahead and believe what you want. Be as ignorant as you want to be. Hide your head in whatever sand pit you want to hide in.
The truth is that the truth itself is ambiguous. It has two sides to it and can be perceived in opposite ways. It is the same kind of paradox as life itself. It is a coin with two sides the same as day and night is a coin with opposite sides yet is still the same day.
Things exist and do not exist at the very same time Brad. All of us are constantly passing away in the process of changing through the life we live. The person you were ten years ago has passed away with time yet still exists within you as your " inner child". The person you will be in ten years from today still has not arrived yet. He is coming in ten years time while at the same time also being here within you. He is your "inner adult" Hopefully you will grow up into him one day.


You are a very persistent false prophet who keeps lying to everyone in this forum, even when you are told by our Creator that you're lying..

Echo those words back at yourself because they apply to you Brad. You are talking to yourself.
I believe myself as much as you believe yourself and I find my own thoughts to be far more logical in my own mind than yours are.

You believe your own interpretations. God had me write stories about the future before He showed me the prophecies to verify what He had already taught me. So the knowledge of God that I possess is where all the prophecies came from.