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Does nakedness justify lying?

DPMartin
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11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/24/2014 11:12:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

In recognition of a WHOLE lot of variables in the air, I don't mind saying 'yes'.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.
DPMartin
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11/24/2014 11:37:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:12:43 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

In recognition of a WHOLE lot of variables in the air, I don't mind saying 'yes'.

Well then stay in the context to what your thinking that justifies lying. What it is that makes it right as you see it?
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/24/2014 11:38:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

why?
miraculous
Posts: 139
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11/24/2014 11:44:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.
What about to save humanity? Or, possibly a single individual's life?
If I went back in time and murdered my grandmother, therefor preventing my existence, then who killed my grandmother?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/24/2014 11:48:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:37:51 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:12:43 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

In recognition of a WHOLE lot of variables in the air, I don't mind saying 'yes'.

Well then stay in the context to what your thinking that justifies lying. What it is that makes it right as you see it?

A play, in two short sentences.

Scene: a man. and his friend about to enter a hours.

The man: "Gee, I really wish some friends would have remembered my birth day. Did any of our communal friends remember my birthday?"

The friend: "Um... no."

The two entered the residence, and LO!1 A surprise party followed.

Now that we have officially established the nebulous concept, may we please narrow it down?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 11:57:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:44:16 AM, miraculous wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.
What about to save humanity? Or, possibly a single individual's life?

Lying cannot save humanioty, and whilst it could save another persons life in this system of things, in the resurrection they may not thank you for making them suffer this poor imitation of a life for longer than needed.

All who truly follow Christ abhor lying, and think more of the perfect life that is to come than this one. After all, that is what he taught and how he lived.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 12:17:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:38:30 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

why?

Because lying is the invention of Satan. If youlie you are imitating him.
silverxseed
Posts: 64
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11/24/2014 12:39:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:57:51 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:44:16 AM, miraculous wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.
What about to save humanity? Or, possibly a single individual's life?

Lying cannot save humanioty, and whilst it could save another persons life in this system of things, in the resurrection they may not thank you for making them suffer this poor imitation of a life for longer than needed.

All who truly follow Christ abhor lying, and think more of the perfect life that is to come than this one. After all, that is what he taught and how he lived.

And I don't truly follow Christ.

Christ also advocated that disobedient sons be stoned to death. I have no inclination to hear the "teachings" of anyone who proposes things like this.

Imitating Satan(I assume that you mean Lucifer and not God's angel Satan)? I'm not really seeing the problem with that. All that is officially in biblical myth about him is that he uses suggestive language to achieve his goals and rebelled against a mass-murdering god. I'm not seeing much of an issue here.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 1:11:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 12:39:39 PM, silverxseed wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:57:51 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:44:16 AM, miraculous wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.
What about to save humanity? Or, possibly a single individual's life?

Lying cannot save humanioty, and whilst it could save another persons life in this system of things, in the resurrection they may not thank you for making them suffer this poor imitation of a life for longer than needed.

All who truly follow Christ abhor lying, and think more of the perfect life that is to come than this one. After all, that is what he taught and how he lived.

And I don't truly follow Christ.

Christ also advocated that disobedient sons be stoned to death. I have no inclination to hear the "teachings" of anyone who proposes things like this.


That, of course, because yuo don't relaly understand what death is, at least not in scriptural terms.

Howver, I think that teh Gdo who created us ahs teh rigth to set li8mits on what we can and can't do don;t you?

If not, why should he tolerate your existence?

I ask simply because the time is coming, and it cannot be all that far off, when the choice will simly be, live in teh way that brings best results to all humanity or don;t live" and iafter all, the creator of us is the only one who truly knows what thay is.

Imitating Satan(I assume that you mean Lucifer and not God's angel Satan)? I'm not really seeing the problem with that. All that is officially in biblical myth about him is that he uses suggestive language to achieve his goals and rebelled against a mass-murdering god. I'm not seeing much of an issue here.

Lucifer and Satan are one and the same. The passage in which he is named, and the only one, is describing the exalted position he was given and how he fell from it when he rebelled, and applying that to the king of Tyre.

Lucifer is in fact an English translation of a Hebrew word or phrase whic means "shinning one", and was probbly not his original name since we are not told the true names of any Angel excepting Gabriel and Michael.

No I mean imitating God God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, by imitating the one who was a perfect copy of him, his son.

I have to admit I don't remember Christ iterally advocting that, but he did say that people should follopw the law, not in the letter of the law style that the Pharisees did, but with mercy, for as long as that Law and the Covenant of whihc it was a part, was in force. Meanwhil he taught people to follow the principles embedded in that law in preparation for it's becoming obsolete.

The vast majority of thsoe who have died so far will be resurrected to life in much better bodies, similar to those enjoyed by Adam and Eve, and inot circumstances similar to those which existed before Satan rebelled, so that they will in effect get a second chance, but in much better circumstance and with much more than a mere 3 score years and 10 to practice it in. In fact they will have the opportunity of living forever should they prove faithful.

So, in fact they will actually have a much better life and life prospect, than they would have had they lived out their 3 score and 10 in this life.

That is all a part of God's merciful arrangement.
silverxseed
Posts: 64
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11/24/2014 1:38:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 1:11:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 12:39:39 PM, silverxseed wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:57:51 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:44:16 AM, miraculous wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.
What about to save humanity? Or, possibly a single individual's life?

Lying cannot save humanioty, and whilst it could save another persons life in this system of things, in the resurrection they may not thank you for making them suffer this poor imitation of a life for longer than needed.

All who truly follow Christ abhor lying, and think more of the perfect life that is to come than this one. After all, that is what he taught and how he lived.

And I don't truly follow Christ.

Christ also advocated that disobedient sons be stoned to death. I have no inclination to hear the "teachings" of anyone who proposes things like this.


That, of course, because yuo don't relaly understand what death is, at least not in scriptural terms.

Howver, I think that teh Gdo who created us ahs teh rigth to set li8mits on what we can and can't do don;t you?

If not, why should he tolerate your existence?

I ask simply because the time is coming, and it cannot be all that far off, when the choice will simly be, live in teh way that brings best results to all humanity or don;t live" and iafter all, the creator of us is the only one who truly knows what thay is.

Imitating Satan(I assume that you mean Lucifer and not God's angel Satan)? I'm not really seeing the problem with that. All that is officially in biblical myth about him is that he uses suggestive language to achieve his goals and rebelled against a mass-murdering god. I'm not seeing much of an issue here.

Lucifer and Satan are one and the same. The passage in which he is named, and the only one, is describing the exalted position he was given and how he fell from it when he rebelled, and applying that to the king of Tyre.

Lucifer is in fact an English translation of a Hebrew word or phrase whic means "shinning one", and was probbly not his original name since we are not told the true names of any Angel excepting Gabriel and Michael.

No I mean imitating God God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, by imitating the one who was a perfect copy of him, his son.

I have to admit I don't remember Christ iterally advocting that, but he did say that people should follopw the law, not in the letter of the law style that the Pharisees did, but with mercy, for as long as that Law and the Covenant of whihc it was a part, was in force. Meanwhil he taught people to follow the principles embedded in that law in preparation for it's becoming obsolete.

The vast majority of thsoe who have died so far will be resurrected to life in much better bodies, similar to those enjoyed by Adam and Eve, and inot circumstances similar to those which existed before Satan rebelled, so that they will in effect get a second chance, but in much better circumstance and with much more than a mere 3 score years and 10 to practice it in. In fact they will have the opportunity of living forever should they prove faithful.

So, in fact they will actually have a much better life and life prospect, than they would have had they lived out their 3 score and 10 in this life.

That is all a part of God's merciful arrangement.

Why should I tolerate his existence with his inaction right now as well as his actions in his own holy text? Assuming he exists. I am no toy, no servant nor putty in the hands of some would-be deity. I am a human being. As are you. We are living, feeling, and thinking beings and our lives cannot be qaunitified as so much clay.

An all powerful and supposedly good being should simply reveal themselves to the world and aid in it's problems, reward the good and find every alternative to death to take care of those who are not good, for there are an infinitesimal number of alternatives to death, and much less eternal torture, to a being such as this, correct?

I conclude that if sub a being willingly chooses such punishments when they have such an unfathomably vast repitoire to choose from at the very least cannot of be seen as having goodness or empathy above any human and should not be treated as if they do posses such qualities. Thus any deity that would choose to kill and torture those it claims to love is not loving and not a being I would associate myself with. Quite the opposite.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 2:11:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 1:38:56 PM, silverxseed wrote:
At 11/24/2014 1:11:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


That is all a part of God's merciful arrangement.

Why should I tolerate his existence with his inaction right now as well as his actions in his own holy text? Assuming he exists. I am no toy, no servant nor putty in the hands of some would-be deity. I am a human being. As are you. We are living, feeling, and thinking beings and our lives cannot be qaunitified as so much clay.

He xists wether you wish t tolerate him or not, but he is far from inactive.

What would you have done?

How would that have stopped it every happening again?

God always intended man tyo have happy and fulfilling eternal lives, and that is precisely what they will have, but how could that happen any otehr way than what he is doing?

The simple asnwer it si couldn't.

Yes he could havve destroyed Satan as soon as he went ronhg, but how would that stop anotehr angel saying "Ah but what if?" and starting his own rebellion?

Well how effective have prison or even teh death sentence been in preventng crime?

Simple. They haven't.

He could also have wiped everything out and started again, but what guarantee would that he been that it wouldn't arise?

Of course he could have created both Angels and human with much no, or reduced free will, but do you fancy being no more than another animal?

No there was no better answer than the one he chose, and at least in time all who have died in teh past and all thosewho have died ignorant of his ways especially will get a resurrection.

We may not like it, but5 presented with a serious operation to remove a cancer or somnethign, whihc of us would opt for a quick fix with teh risk of it returning and which for a full remopval of the growth to prevent it returning?

I know which I would opt for even if it were by far the more painful, more inconvenient option.

Same principle, just a diffetn timescale, and fitted into our three score years and ten rather than eternity.

An all powerful and supposedly good being should simply reveal themselves to the world and aid in it's problems, reward the good and find every alternative to death to take care of those who are not good, for there are an infinitesimal number of alternatives to death, and much less eternal torture, to a being such as this, correct?

What more does he need to do that would work.

He has left us a full record of teh 1st 4,500 years of his plan's outworking, plus information abotu how it will continue to develop throught this teim period and beyond.

He las left masses of evidence in his creation alone.

What more do you wnat? Miracles?

Whatr good would they do? Did the miraces the Israelites experiecned guarantee thier faithfulness?

Hardly.,

He now has an organisation goiung patiently round from door to door, throughout the earth, exactly how Christ taught his followe3rs to do, to give popele the information they need.

He's even got me on here trying to help any who relaly want God's help to find it.

He really can do no more, so it's now up to us.


I conclude that if sub a being willingly chooses such punishments when they have such an unfathomably vast repitoire to choose from at the very least cannot of be seen as having goodness or empathy above any human and should not be treated as if they do posses such qualities. Thus any deity that would choose to kill and torture those it claims to love is not loving and not a being I would associate myself with. Quite the opposite.

God did not5 chose any punishment. Adam and Eve chose for us, when they bchose to follow Satan ratehr than God.

It is up to us to choose now, and he hopes we will choose life.

If God had been givne a choice none of thie woudl have happened. Adam and Eve would have remained faithful and still be alive today. This planet would by now be the paradise it was always intended to be.

Even now he punishes no-one.

The hell of torment is none of his doing. It doesn't even exist, it the invention of Satan and those who, knowingly or not, follow hm.

The dead know nothing, suffer nothing and will continue that way until they are resurrected into Adam like bodies with the same prospects Adam thrw away.

God has to be the most heavily slandered being that ever existed, and so far you have jsut added to that slander.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/24/2014 2:14:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 12:17:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:38:30 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

why?

Because lying is the invention of Satan. If youlie you are imitating him.

Then what happened here?

1Kgs:22:19: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20: And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21: And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22: And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/24/2014 2:22:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:48:50 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:37:51 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:12:43 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

In recognition of a WHOLE lot of variables in the air, I don't mind saying 'yes'.

Well then stay in the context to what your thinking that justifies lying. What it is that makes it right as you see it?


A play, in two short sentences.

Scene: a man. and his friend about to enter a hours.

The man: "Gee, I really wish some friends would have remembered my birth day. Did any of our communal friends remember my birthday?"

The friend: "Um... no."


The two entered the residence, and LO!1 A surprise party followed.

Now that we have officially established the nebulous concept, may we please narrow it down?

But is that a case where nakedness justifies the lie? Lets face it, your example is more of a, not volunteering the truth or information, then an outright lie. If it"s to hard for you to focus, take your time. Don"t get your patties in a wad.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/24/2014 2:37:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

In recognition of a WHOLE lot of variables in the air, I don't mind saying 'yes'.

Well then stay in the context to what your thinking that justifies lying. What it is that makes it right as you see it?


A play, in two short sentences.

Scene: a man. and his friend about to enter a hours.

The man: "Gee, I really wish some friends would have remembered my birth day. Did any of our communal friends remember my birthday?"

The friend: "Um... no."


The two entered the residence, and LO!1 A surprise party followed.

Now that we have officially established the nebulous concept, may we please narrow it down?

But is that a case where nakedness justifies the lie? Lets face it, your example is more of a, not volunteering the truth or information, then an outright lie. If it"s to hard for you to focus, take your time. Don"t get your patties in a wad.

Fvck if I know, its YOUR definition of a lie, that is why I ask for clarification in the first place. Now that I have offered up an example, and you rejected it because of... um.. reasons, or something, please, narrow down your statement.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
silverxseed
Posts: 64
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11/24/2014 3:59:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:11:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 1:38:56 PM, silverxseed wrote:
At 11/24/2014 1:11:45 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:


That is all a part of God's merciful arrangement.

Why should I tolerate his existence with his inaction right now as well as his actions in his own holy text? Assuming he exists. I am no toy, no servant nor putty in the hands of some would-be deity. I am a human being. As are you. We are living, feeling, and thinking beings and our lives cannot be qaunitified as so much clay.

He xists wether you wish t tolerate him or not, but he is far from inactive.

What would you have done?

How would that have stopped it every happening again?

God always intended man tyo have happy and fulfilling eternal lives, and that is precisely what they will have, but how could that happen any otehr way than what he is doing?

The simple asnwer it si couldn't.

Yes he could havve destroyed Satan as soon as he went ronhg, but how would that stop anotehr angel saying "Ah but what if?" and starting his own rebellion?

Well how effective have prison or even teh death sentence been in preventng crime?

Simple. They haven't.

He could also have wiped everything out and started again, but what guarantee would that he been that it wouldn't arise?

Of course he could have created both Angels and human with much no, or reduced free will, but do you fancy being no more than another animal?

No there was no better answer than the one he chose, and at least in time all who have died in teh past and all thosewho have died ignorant of his ways especially will get a resurrection.

We may not like it, but5 presented with a serious operation to remove a cancer or somnethign, whihc of us would opt for a quick fix with teh risk of it returning and which for a full remopval of the growth to prevent it returning?

I know which I would opt for even if it were by far the more painful, more inconvenient option.

Same principle, just a diffetn timescale, and fitted into our three score years and ten rather than eternity.

An all powerful and supposedly good being should simply reveal themselves to the world and aid in it's problems, reward the good and find every alternative to death to take care of those who are not good, for there are an infinitesimal number of alternatives to death, and much less eternal torture, to a being such as this, correct?

What more does he need to do that would work.

He has left us a full record of teh 1st 4,500 years of his plan's outworking, plus information abotu how it will continue to develop throught this teim period and beyond.

He las left masses of evidence in his creation alone.

What more do you wnat? Miracles?

Whatr good would they do? Did the miraces the Israelites experiecned guarantee thier faithfulness?

Hardly.,

He now has an organisation goiung patiently round from door to door, throughout the earth, exactly how Christ taught his followe3rs to do, to give popele the information they need.

He's even got me on here trying to help any who relaly want God's help to find it.

He really can do no more, so it's now up to us.


I conclude that if sub a being willingly chooses such punishments when they have such an unfathomably vast repitoire to choose from at the very least cannot of be seen as having goodness or empathy above any human and should not be treated as if they do posses such qualities. Thus any deity that would choose to kill and torture those it claims to love is not loving and not a being I would associate myself with. Quite the opposite.

God did not5 chose any punishment. Adam and Eve chose for us, when they bchose to follow Satan ratehr than God.

It is up to us to choose now, and he hopes we will choose life.

If God had been givne a choice none of thie woudl have happened. Adam and Eve would have remained faithful and still be alive today. This planet would by now be the paradise it was always intended to be.

Even now he punishes no-one.

The hell of torment is none of his doing. It doesn't even exist, it the invention of Satan and those who, knowingly or not, follow hm.

The dead know nothing, suffer nothing and will continue that way until they are resurrected into Adam like bodies with the same prospects Adam thrw away.

God has to be the most heavily slandered being that ever existed, and so far you have jsut added to that slander.

I have no reason to believe he exists without evidence. A 3,500 year old stack of paper is not evidence, it's a claim that has no more truth to it than me writing a poem on a napkin.

What would I have done are you seriously trying to lie to me saying that you know no other option but death and hell or do you seriously believe that? Okay. It's simple. Let's take rape and murder. If I were God I would make it so that it simply can or be performed. Humanity can still think about it(though I can certainly make it so that people don't consider horrible actions like this at all, which would also be pretty good) but you can put a knife as close as you want to someone else's throat it simply won't hurt them. Why couldn't I do that? I would be God. And those actions would never happen because I said they couldn't. Of are you saying that your god isn't all powerful? If so then he is inept in his duties.

If God knows everything then why did he create Satan knowing that he would be his adversary? And yes, he could have simply killed Satan(I don't see why not, he has no problems killing humans) and any other angel that spoke against him or would(he would know anyway, omniscience, remember?) and that would be that. It's funny that you believe in this being but even you are trying to rationalize him by bringing down his supposed level of power.

I've told you what I want. I want him to show himself. It shouldn't be hard for the creator of the universe. After all, he did it in the bible.

He can do no more? How do you know what your God'd limitations are? Or are you limiting your own God again?

Yes. God did choose hell. If he is all powerful and can create or destroy anything and hell exists then God must want it to exist. Otherwise why would it? You also have no bearing in stating that Satan is the creator of hell, nowhere in the bible is this stated. Rather what you believe is a compilation of folk decadence and myths compounded into colloquial folklore surrounding the bible. In short, your version of the devil is one heavily influenced by the legend of Faust and Dante's Divine Comedy.

God has no choice? Who is this being that is restricting God? So he can create and entire universe and a myriad of living things but he can't stop people from eating fruit or en forgive them from doing so? If God isn't making the rules here then who is?

You should probably read Revelations where it is explicitly stated that God looks in his "book of life" and tosses any human whose name isn't in it into the lake of fire". That's right, even the bible says that God is the one giving out the one way tickets to Crispytown here.

Oh, I feel so guilty for questioning the moral fiber of a fictional character that is heralded as the epitome of benevolence when even in his own myth he isn't. I'd argue that Lucifer is more slandered.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 3:59:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:14:51 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 12:17:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:38:30 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

why?

Because lying is the invention of Satan. If youlie you are imitating him.

Then what happened here?

1Kgs:22:19: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20: And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21: And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22: And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

scripture tells us that Satan was constantly appearing in heaven, epecially at times when they were all gathered together there. Whop is to say that his deomns didn;t also.

One of God's angels woudn't lie, but I am sure one of Satan's demons would take dselight in causing truoble any way it could. If it wa sa lying spirit then it had ot be one of Satan's.

God has never been above using Satan's own deomns or human fo9llowers against him, but he never makes his own fatithful ones transgress.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 4:18:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:59:02 PM, silverxseed wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:11:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Actually I ended up srubbing most of what you wrote because it is typical "Any excuse not to believe" eyewash.

There is an absolute mass of evidence of God's existence, in his creation, and that evidence gets more obvious almost daily. If you choose not to recognise it for what it is that is nto his problem, but it will be yours when teh time comes.

Even the very fact that they could spend 10 years getting a space vehicle out to a comet and only be four minutes late landing is solid evidence that the universe was created not some haphazard accident. It was so absolutely reliable.

I can understand why Christ got so short with people like yurself who are hatily trying to find reasons to avoid the truth.

It won't work though, the truth is the truth wether or not you like it.

You say the bible is just a stack of ancient writings, and yet it is so accurate it can have no other source than God. It foretells things that are happeing today, like the fact that we are rapidly reaching a point where if he doesn't step in we will have destroyed the earth and everything on it, including ourselves (Revelation 11:18).

There has never been one tihing proven wrong in scripture to the extent that there are even scientists who support what it says 100%.

God exists, deal with it.
silverxseed
Posts: 64
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11/24/2014 4:23:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:18:35 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:59:02 PM, silverxseed wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:11:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Actually I ended up srubbing most of what you wrote because it is typical "Any excuse not to believe" eyewash.

There is an absolute mass of evidence of God's existence, in his creation, and that evidence gets more obvious almost daily. If you choose not to recognise it for what it is that is nto his problem, but it will be yours when teh time comes.

Even the very fact that they could spend 10 years getting a space vehicle out to a comet and only be four minutes late landing is solid evidence that the universe was created not some haphazard accident. It was so absolutely reliable.

I can understand why Christ got so short with people like yurself who are hatily trying to find reasons to avoid the truth.

It won't work though, the truth is the truth wether or not you like it.

You say the bible is just a stack of ancient writings, and yet it is so accurate it can have no other source than God. It foretells things that are happeing today, like the fact that we are rapidly reaching a point where if he doesn't step in we will have destroyed the earth and everything on it, including ourselves (Revelation 11:18).

There has never been one tihing proven wrong in scripture to the extent that there are even scientists who support what it says 100%.

God exists, deal with it.

Leprechauns exist. Deal with it.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/24/2014 4:26:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

Is the following scripture the truth or a lie?
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Will you die MCB ?
DPMartin
Posts: 1,096
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11/24/2014 5:02:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:59:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:14:51 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 12:17:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:38:30 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

why?

Because lying is the invention of Satan. If youlie you are imitating him.

Then what happened here?

1Kgs:22:19: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20: And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21: And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22: And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

scripture tells us that Satan was constantly appearing in heaven, epecially at times when they were all gathered together there. Whop is to say that his deomns didn;t also.

One of God's angels woudn't lie, but I am sure one of Satan's demons would take dselight in causing truoble any way it could. If it wa sa lying spirit then it had ot be one of Satan's.

God has never been above using Satan's own deomns or human fo9llowers against him, but he never makes his own fatithful ones transgress.

I didn"t ask you who or what the lying spirit was, did I?

If lying is never justified as you"ve stated, then you are saying that here where it was God"s will that someone or something as in a lying spirit would lie to the prophets, wasn"t justified, as mentioned in the text.

So either your judgement of what is justified supersedes God"s will demistrated in the scriptures, or you are flat wrong. I will take you are flat wrong, for 500 Alex.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/24/2014 5:10:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Jung said we all hide our true selves with the mask we show the world. He said it is neccesary to have this mask but if we aren't careful we can be one the mask.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 5:44:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:26:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

Is the following scripture the truth or a lie?
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Will you die MCB ?

Of course I believe it, that is why I believe everything he taught, including that.

Of course it depends what you mean by death. Jesus himself described Lazarus as "asleep" when he went to bring him bkca from the dead, and teh bible speaks of two death. One like a dreamless sleep from which you wakr, the other permanent oblivion.

I will never see teh second death though I may fall asleep before Armageddon and get "woken" after in the resurrection.

Yes, I believe it, of course i do, but I have to believe it in the lightof all other scripture which is why I understand it as I do.

Scripture, being the word of God is a harmonious whole, and must be seen and understood as such. Anything that breaches that harmony is obviously a misunderstanding.

Simple as.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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11/24/2014 6:20:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 5:44:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 4:26:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

Is the following scripture the truth or a lie?
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Will you die MCB ?

Of course I believe it, that is why I believe everything he taught, including that.

Of course it depends what you mean by death. Jesus himself described Lazarus as "asleep" when he went to bring him bkca from the dead, and teh bible speaks of two death. One like a dreamless sleep from which you wakr, the other permanent oblivion.

I will never see teh second death though I may fall asleep before Armageddon and get "woken" after in the resurrection.

Yes, I believe it, of course i do, but I have to believe it in the lightof all other scripture which is why I understand it as I do.

Scripture, being the word of God is a harmonious whole, and must be seen and understood as such. Anything that breaches that harmony is obviously a misunderstanding.

Simple as.

So Jesus was not telling a lie by saying you will never die even though you really will die and so do all believers?

To anyone who defines death as the state of those who lie in their graves, it would appear that Jesus was lying. Yet you justify that lie by saying it all depends how you interpret it.
Then previously you said "Lying is never justified under any conditions or circumstances."
Why do you justify Jesus apparent lie when you believe lying is never justified under any circumstances?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 7:10:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 5:10:16 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Jung said we all hide our true selves with the mask we show the world. He said it is neccesary to have this mask but if we aren't careful we can be one the mask.

Just shbows how little Jung knew then.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/24/2014 7:14:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 6:20:48 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/24/2014 5:44:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 4:26:33 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

Is the following scripture the truth or a lie?
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Will you die MCB ?

Of course I believe it, that is why I believe everything he taught, including that.

Of course it depends what you mean by death. Jesus himself described Lazarus as "asleep" when he went to bring him bkca from the dead, and teh bible speaks of two death. One like a dreamless sleep from which you wakr, the other permanent oblivion.

I will never see teh second death though I may fall asleep before Armageddon and get "woken" after in the resurrection.

Yes, I believe it, of course i do, but I have to believe it in the lightof all other scripture which is why I understand it as I do.

Scripture, being the word of God is a harmonious whole, and must be seen and understood as such. Anything that breaches that harmony is obviously a misunderstanding.

Simple as.

So Jesus was not telling a lie by saying you will never die even though you really will die and so do all believers?


No because he was referring to teh second death not the "sleep" whihc is what we know as death at present.

To anyone who defines death as the state of those who lie in their graves, it would appear that Jesus was lying. Yet you justify that lie by saying it all depends how you interpret it.

That is becuase the physical shell is no longer needed, at the resurrection their personality and memories will be placed in a new body.

They are still alive in God's mamory, jsut as our loved ones in our memories, except that God can bring us back, we can't rbring anyone back.

Then previously you said "Lying is never justified under any conditions or circumstances."

Why do you justify Jesus apparent lie when you believe lying is never justified under any circumstances?

Becvause it wasn;t a lie, it si true. That is why teh Apostles referred to falling asleep in death also, because tio is nto permanent.

You have to understanbd what God and Jesus mean, not jsut what they say, espiecally since their words have been translated so many tmes and may have lost something in teh translation.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/24/2014 7:23:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 7:10:12 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 5:10:16 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Jung said we all hide our true selves with the mask we show the world. He said it is neccesary to have this mask but if we aren't careful we can be one the mask.

Just shbows how little Jung knew

What do you mean?

It sounds like a truism.

The mask would refer to something similar to the eastern concept of ego, which I've never seen disputed as existing.

There is debate whether the ego is part of the true self or a mask but your statement makes it sound like you deny it's existence. Do you care to elaborate?
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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11/24/2014 7:24:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:59:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:14:51 PM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 12:17:40 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:38:30 AM, DPMartin wrote:
At 11/24/2014 11:16:52 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/24/2014 10:55:05 AM, DPMartin wrote:
Does one"s unprotected unguarded self (not in the physical sense as in ones flesh) justify deceit or lying? Can you lie to what covers you from detection? Hence why the perceived need to lie to keep others from seeing? And what does the liar hide but his own shame?

Lying is never jsutified under any conditions or circumstances.

why?

Because lying is the invention of Satan. If youlie you are imitating him.

Then what happened here?

1Kgs:22:19: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20: And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21: And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22: And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23: Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

scripture tells us that Satan was constantly appearing in heaven, epecially at times when they were all gathered together there. Whop is to say that his deomns didn;t also.

One of God's angels woudn't lie, but I am sure one of Satan's demons would take dselight in causing truoble any way it could. If it wa sa lying spirit then it had ot be one of Satan's.

God has never been above using Satan's own deomns or human fo9llowers against him, but he never makes his own fatithful ones transgress.

And your god is so dumb that he can't tell the difference between an angel and a demon, not only that but he sent the "demon/angel" off to deliberately lie, so it doesn't matter whether it was an angel or a demon it was your god's decision.
bulproof
Posts: 25,295
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11/24/2014 7:26:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:59:32 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
scripture tells us that Satan was constantly appearing in heaven, epecially at times when they were all gathered together there. Whop is to say that his deomns didn;t also.
BTW show us the passages that support this claim.