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Theists - If we have souls, then why...

jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
miraculous
Posts: 139
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11/24/2014 2:43:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, buyt animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.
I wholly agree. The question's been on my mind for a while actually. If I indeed have a soul and hold a rightful place in so-called heaven, why are other species for example my Dalmatian, denied of the same obligatory rights?
Though completely irrelevant to the current topic, I'd like to point out that you've posted "666" posts in totality. Call me premature.
If I went back in time and murdered my grandmother, therefor preventing my existence, then who killed my grandmother?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 2:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:43:04 PM, miraculous wrote:

Though completely irrelevant to the current topic, I'd like to point out that you've posted "666" posts in totality. Call me premature.

Nooooo! The mark of the beast! D:
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
miraculous
Posts: 139
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11/24/2014 2:59:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:46:28 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:43:04 PM, miraculous wrote:

Though completely irrelevant to the current topic, I'd like to point out that you've posted "666" posts in totality. Call me premature.

Nooooo! The mark of the beast! D:
Remember to pray extra vehemently tonight. To eradicate the sin you've committed.
If I went back in time and murdered my grandmother, therefor preventing my existence, then who killed my grandmother?
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/24/2014 3:05:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
If animals do not have souls, then neither do we.
ok

Therefore, when you die it's over.
ok

Enjoy and experience life while you have it
ok

and don't deny another living thing that right.
??
If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.
Does not follow.

Value judgments are based in your understanding of the world, and what you naturally/spontaneously care about in the world.

If you naturally care about what happens to your child, your friend, or a social and emotionally engaging animal companion...

That DOES NOT mean that you care about ALL LIFE..
NOR does it mean that you're a hypocrite if you don't care about the Bug crawling along your desk...
Nor does it mean you're a hypocrite if you don't care in the same Degree about the rabbits out in the field...

Perhaps the rabbits in the field are similar in certain capacities to those you care about.. Perhaps because of these similarlities you will similarly care about the rabbits..

Perhaps not.

The fact that we care some animals does not mean we should care for all animals.

Personally, I empathize with socially intelligent beings most..

I empathize with raw physical Pain (as I know physical Pain) as well, but less so than, considered, emotional pain.

So, I care what happens to many animals...

I wouldn't see them in Emotional or physical distress (As I know Them)...
Conscious, Self-considered, self-Aware distress even moreso.

However, I don't think all animals experience such things as we do... and Oftentimes I think such pains can be minimized.

And I don't care about all many forms of life.

None of this is hypocritical... Rather it's based in a very straightforward way from my natural, spontaneous cares.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

They needn't reach to the supernatural to explain why your argument does not follow.

it just doesn't.

It's not hypocritical to simply NOT CARE about insects, but care about your family..

it's just how it is.

it would be silly to act to protect insects as you protect your family...
Unless of course, you happened to care about them in similar capacities (which means you're rather an anomoly among humans)
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 3:08:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:59:21 PM, miraculous wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:46:28 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:43:04 PM, miraculous wrote:

Though completely irrelevant to the current topic, I'd like to point out that you've posted "666" posts in totality. Call me premature.

Nooooo! The mark of the beast! D:
Remember to pray extra vehemently tonight. To eradicate the sin you've committed.

Lol! I can try, but I'd rather, brush my dogs (they smile you know), scratch my cat behind his ears, feed the hamster, talk to the turtle, water the plants, and hug my kids. What's that you say about prayer? ;) The proof is in the action.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/24/2014 3:12:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:05:33 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
and don't deny another living thing that right.
??
If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.
Does not follow.

Value judgments are based in your understanding of the world, and what you naturally/spontaneously care about in the world.

If you naturally care about what happens to your child, your friend, or a social and emotionally engaging animal companion...

That DOES NOT mean that you care about ALL LIFE..
NOR does it mean that you're a hypocrite if you don't care about the Bug crawling along your desk...
Nor does it mean you're a hypocrite if you don't care in the same Degree about the rabbits out in the field...

if you Naturally/Spontaneously don't care too much about what happens to certain lifeforms... but DO care about what happens to others..

then it's Not hypocritical to Value them differently.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 3:26:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:05:33 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
If animals do not have souls, then neither do we.
ok

Therefore, when you die it's over.
ok

Enjoy and experience life while you have it
ok

and don't deny another living thing that right.
??
If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.
Does not follow.

If you don't place value on sentience then you are a hypocritical animal.

Value judgments are based in your understanding of the world, and what you naturally/spontaneously care about in the world.

If you naturally care about what happens to your child, your friend, or a social and emotionally engaging animal companion...

That DOES NOT mean that you care about ALL LIFE..
NOR does it mean that you're a hypocrite if you don't care about the Bug crawling along your desk...

I didn't mention invertebrates in my list above. There is no proof that invertebrates, such as bugs have emotional response.

Nor does it mean you're a hypocrite if you don't care in the same Degree about the rabbits out in the field...

Perhaps the rabbits in the field are similar in certain capacities to those you care about.. Perhaps because of these similarlities you will similarly care about the rabbits..

Perhaps not.

The fact that we care some animals does not mean we should care for all animals.

How so?

Personally, I empathize with socially intelligent beings most..

Okay, and that makes you superior?

I empathize with raw physical Pain (as I know physical Pain) as well, but less so than, considered, emotional pain.

So, I care what happens to many animals...

I wouldn't see them in Emotional or physical distress (As I know Them)...
Conscious, Self-considered, self-Aware distress even moreso.

However, I don't think all animals experience such things as we do... and Oftentimes I think such pains can be minimized.

And I don't care about all many forms of life.

That's too bad.

None of this is hypocritical... Rather it's based in a very straightforward way from my natural, spontaneous cares.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

They needn't reach to the supernatural to explain why your argument does not follow.

it just doesn't.

Explain please.

It's not hypocritical to simply NOT CARE about insects, but care about your family..

it's just how it is.

it would be silly to act to protect insects as you protect your family...
Unless of course, you happened to care about them in similar capacities (which means you're rather an anomoly among humans)

I will say again that invertebrates are not proven to have sentience and therefore I have to dismiss that from your argument.

Try again.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/24/2014 3:42:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:26:50 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
If you don't place value on sentience then you are a hypocritical animal.

Explain the supposed hypocrisy.

What I understand as bringing forth Personal pleasure and pain is the basis of my value scheme.

I rather dislike pain, so putting my hand over a lit flame is rather not ideal....

Similarly unfun feelings are evoked when those I naturally empathize with are harmed, so keeping them from harm makes sense.

The reasons why I naturally empathize with one being or another may be complicated, but my empathy is NOT a simple function based upon sentience alone...

I can imagine sentient beings for whom I would have little feelings of empathy with..
and I can imagine Less-Sentient beings for whom I would have greater feelings of empathy with..

in what manner is Not empathizing with some beings hypocritical?

Value judgments are based in your understanding of the world, and what you naturally/spontaneously care about in the world.

If you naturally care about what happens to your child, your friend, or a social and emotionally engaging animal companion...

That DOES NOT mean that you care about ALL LIFE..
NOR does it mean that you're a hypocrite if you don't care about the Bug crawling along your desk...

I didn't mention invertebrates in my list above. There is no proof that invertebrates, such as bugs have emotional response.

You Hypocrite!

lol..

I do not empathize as much with reptiles and birds as I do with mammals, nor do I empathize with many mammals as much as with socially intelligent animals, nor do I empathize with members of said species as much as I do with those closest to me.

The empathetic feelings that I have for reptiles and birds do not really extend much into social dimensions... rather the bulk of it is simply that I can empathize with physical pain on their behalf...

However, EVEN IF I DIDN'T EMPATHIZE AT ALL.... it doesn't mean I'm being a hypocrite.

It just means that I don't care.
that's not hypocrisy.. it's just not caring.

for example... A psychopath who doesn't care about the pain of others isn't a hypocrite.. he just cares about himself.
This is not being inconsistent.. just a Douche-bag.

Nor does it mean you're a hypocrite if you don't care in the same Degree about the rabbits out in the field...

Perhaps the rabbits in the field are similar in certain capacities to those you care about.. Perhaps because of these similarlities you will similarly care about the rabbits..

Perhaps not.

The fact that we care some animals does not mean we should care for all animals.

How so?

Personally, I empathize with socially intelligent beings most..

Okay, and that makes you superior?

is that what I said? o.O

it's just that If I don't care about something, why should I respect it?

I empathize with raw physical Pain (as I know physical Pain) as well, but less so than, considered, emotional pain.

So, I care what happens to many animals...

I wouldn't see them in Emotional or physical distress (As I know Them)...
Conscious, Self-considered, self-Aware distress even moreso.

However, I don't think all animals experience such things as we do... and Oftentimes I think such pains can be minimized.

And I don't care about all many forms of life.

That's too bad.

no, not from my perspective.. it's fine.

None of this is hypocritical... Rather it's based in a very straightforward way from my natural, spontaneous cares.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

They needn't reach to the supernatural to explain why your argument does not follow.

it just doesn't.

Explain please.

It's not hypocritical to simply NOT CARE about insects, but care about your family..

it's just how it is.

it would be silly to act to protect insects as you protect your family...
Unless of course, you happened to care about them in similar capacities (which means you're rather an anomoly among humans)

I will say again that invertebrates are not proven to have sentience and therefore I have to dismiss that from your argument.

Try again.

Yeah, psychopaths aren't necessarily inconsistent... (not necessarily hypocrites)

they can consistently just care about themselves..

similarly, it's not inconsistent to care about others/other animals in varying degrees... depending on what empathetic responses are naturally evoked in you.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,071
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11/24/2014 3:48:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

People who I encounter on the streets of Campbell believe that this flesh is real, and they are deceived by the Beast, which is a program created by the thoughts of our Creator to deceive those who will not listen to His prophets.
Our Creator is revealing to brilliant physicists that all matter is an illusion and that our flesh will perish at the end of this age.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,071
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11/24/2014 3:51:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:48:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

People who I encounter on the streets of Campbell believe that this flesh is real, and they are deceived by the Beast, which is a program created by the thoughts of our Creator to deceive those who will not listen to His prophets.
Our Creator is revealing to brilliant physicists that all matter is an illusion and that our flesh will perish at the end of this age.

Whoops. Wrong account.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/24/2014 3:53:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:42:19 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:26:50 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
If you don't place value on sentience then you are a hypocritical animal.

Explain the supposed hypocrisy.
- - -
Yeah, psychopaths aren't necessarily inconsistent... (not necessarily hypocrites)

they can consistently just care about themselves..

similarly, it's not inconsistent to care about others/other animals in varying degrees... depending on what empathetic responses are naturally evoked in you.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 4:01:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:51:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:48:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

People who I encounter on the streets of Campbell believe that this flesh is real, and they are deceived by the Beast, which is a program created by the thoughts of our Creator to deceive those who will not listen to His prophets.
Our Creator is revealing to brilliant physicists that all matter is an illusion and that our flesh will perish at the end of this age.

Whoops. Wrong account.

You just took on a whole new level of whatthefuckosaurus. Brad! You should be ashamed of yourself! o_O
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,071
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11/24/2014 4:05:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:01:29 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:51:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:48:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

People who I encounter on the streets of Campbell believe that this flesh is real, and they are deceived by the Beast, which is a program created by the thoughts of our Creator to deceive those who will not listen to His prophets.
Our Creator is revealing to brilliant physicists that all matter is an illusion and that our flesh will perish at the end of this age.

Whoops. Wrong account.

You just took on a whole new level of whatthefuckosaurus. Brad! You should be ashamed of yourself! o_O

Ignore that post! I'm not Bornofgod!
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 4:08:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:05:24 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 4:01:29 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:51:57 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:48:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

People who I encounter on the streets of Campbell believe that this flesh is real, and they are deceived by the Beast, which is a program created by the thoughts of our Creator to deceive those who will not listen to His prophets.
Our Creator is revealing to brilliant physicists that all matter is an illusion and that our flesh will perish at the end of this age.

Whoops. Wrong account.

You just took on a whole new level of whatthefuckosaurus. Brad! You should be ashamed of yourself! o_O

Ignore that post! I'm not Bornofgod!

I'm crushed! I thought that I was one of your chosen believers.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
LifeMeansGodIsGood
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11/24/2014 4:08:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

Do you really think your communicative, imaginative, and reasoning powers are no different than a monkey? Talk about simple minded, you are trying to prove that you are nothing more than a monkey.
jodybirdy
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11/24/2014 4:12:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:08:53 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

Do you really think your communicative, imaginative, and reasoning powers are no different than a monkey? Talk about simple minded, you are trying to prove that you are nothing more than a monkey.

Monkey is as monkey does... monkey see monkey do. At least I don't try to emulate something I'm not.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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11/24/2014 4:48:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:33:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Animal souls are Tasty!

wow, that's creepy :/
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/24/2014 4:50:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:33:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Animals do have souls...

Your evidence for that?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/24/2014 4:52:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

+50
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
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11/24/2014 4:57:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:08:53 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

Do you really think your communicative, imaginative, and reasoning powers are no different than a monkey? Talk about simple minded, you are trying to prove that you are nothing more than a monkey.

A chimpanzee has at least the same intelligence as a 5-year old human.

http://www.releasechimps.org...

Stop with your bigoted remarks. My pet monkey is offended!
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/24/2014 5:00:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:33:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Animals do have souls...

Debate me on the topic of substance dualism?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/24/2014 5:04:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

I'm not sure if anybody hit on this but Rene Descartes had an excellent argument for humans having souls and not animals. Have you read any of his stuff?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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11/24/2014 5:04:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:05:33 PM, mortsdor wrote:

However, I don't think all animals experience such things as we do...
And your evidence for that?

I'm sure several of us here can understand why you would find that idea to be comforting, but adopting an idea simply for emotional comfort isn't healthy and doesn't lead to an understanding of reality.

- "If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

It's not only true for theism.

and Oftentimes I think such pains can be minimized.
Mostly, they're minimized in the minds of those who aren't experiencing them.

And I don't care about all many forms of life.
I believe the topic was in reference to "sentient" life.

None of this is hypocritical... Rather it's based in a very straightforward way from my natural, spontaneous cares.
It's the result of indoctrination. Place a human toddler in a play pen with a rabbit and an apple. Which one will it cuddle? Which one will it eat? (We'll assume you're not the toddler in question.)
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Beastt
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11/24/2014 5:07:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 3:12:15 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/24/2014 3:05:33 PM, mortsdor wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
and don't deny another living thing that right.
??
If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.
Does not follow.

Value judgments are based in your understanding of the world, and what you naturally/spontaneously care about in the world.

If you naturally care about what happens to your child, your friend, or a social and emotionally engaging animal companion...

That DOES NOT mean that you care about ALL LIFE..
NOR does it mean that you're a hypocrite if you don't care about the Bug crawling along your desk...
Nor does it mean you're a hypocrite if you don't care in the same Degree about the rabbits out in the field...


if you Naturally/Spontaneously don't care too much about what happens to certain lifeforms... but DO care about what happens to others..

then it's Not hypocritical to Value them differently.

Just as it isn't hypocritical for a psychopath to care intensely about his own welfare, yet be totally lacking in compassion for others.

...but it's still psychopathic.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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11/24/2014 5:09:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 5:04:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

I'm not sure if anybody hit on this but Rene Descartes had an excellent argument for humans having souls and not animals. Have you read any of his stuff?

No, I have not. Expand on this, please. I'd like to see a good argument to the contrary.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/24/2014 5:10:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not all humans have souls. For example gingers obviously are vacant, and are akin to those who have suffered the dementors kiss.

It's a cruel world...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/24/2014 5:12:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 5:09:42 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 11/24/2014 5:04:45 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

I'm not sure if anybody hit on this but Rene Descartes had an excellent argument for humans having souls and not animals. Have you read any of his stuff?

No, I have not. Expand on this, please. I'd like to see a good argument to the contrary.

Actually I'm going to ask Envisage to expand on this since he's more comfortable with cartesian philosophy. If he doesn't then I will.
Beastt
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11/24/2014 5:13:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/24/2014 4:08:53 PM, LifeMeansGodIsGood wrote:
At 11/24/2014 2:31:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
...do you believe that animals don't? Why have most religions promoted the consumption, and sometimes bloody sacrifice, of sentient beings?

Sentient by definition is the ability to perceive and have feelings. To be affected by the world around us, feel pain and pleasure, to respond emotionally, and interact with environmental stimuli. And in this way we are no different than our animal neighbors, pets, and dinner. Scientifically it is believed that all vertebrates have some level of sentience and it is not limited to mammals.

There are something like 4700 species of mammals (including humans) and 9700 species of birds. We can't forget the following vertebrates that we've discovered so far:
4800+ species of amphibians.
23,000+ species of fish.
6000+ species of reptiles.

So, from the theistic perspective we are superior and we have a soul, but animals do not. God created us and the animals are simply here for us to use as we see fit. How can we be so sure that we are better than animals? Or that we deserve to experience and enjoy life more than an animal does?

This is one of the main reasons I will not subscribe to religion. I challenge anyone to prove to me that we are superior outside of having large brains and opposable thumbs.

If animals do not have souls, then neither do we. Therefore, when you die it's over. Enjoy and experience life while you have it and don't deny another living thing that right. If you do, then you are a hypocrite and placing zero value on any life, including your own.

If we have souls, then so do animals and your heaven is going to be seriously over populated. Prove me wrong with your simple minded doctrines and over developed sense of importance in the universe.

Do you really think your communicative, imaginative, and reasoning powers are no different than a monkey? Talk about simple minded, you are trying to prove that you are nothing more than a monkey.

- "It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions." -- Mark Twain

It's time to admit that there are times when the chimpanzee holds the cognitive advantage, and even times when they demonstrate greater empathy.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire