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Anti-Theism vs. Atheism

GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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5/6/2010 7:57:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm an Anti-Theist, but I wish there were a God. Dying in seventy years doesn't sound too appealing. All fun ends, and I become nothing. If a God existed, then maybe I could play in the sky with him when I die, or I could be reincarnated or something. I dunno. Death is nothingness. I don't like the idea of being nothing.
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 7:58:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Christopher Hitchens answers to a Christian who asks him what if God exists:
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 8:01:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 7:57:51 PM, Nags wrote:
I'm an Anti-Theist, but I wish there were a God. Dying in seventy years doesn't sound too appealing. All fun ends, and I become nothing. If a God existed, then maybe I could play in the sky with him when I die, or I could be reincarnated or something. I dunno. Death is nothingness. I don't like the idea of being nothing.

An afterlife doesn't require God. I would rather be dead forever than live in an eternal dictatorship. And I'd prefer an afterlife with no God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Xer
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5/6/2010 8:03:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:01:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
An afterlife doesn't require God.

?

I would rather be dead forever than live in an eternal dictatorship. And I'd prefer an afterlife with no God.

You're assuming a dictatorial God.
GeoLaureate8
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5/6/2010 8:08:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:03:34 PM, Nags wrote:
At 5/6/2010 8:01:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
An afterlife doesn't require God.

?

That used to be a belief of mine in my New Age days. I believed in an Astral Plane or a higher dimension that my body would ascend to and God was completely out of the picture.

Where did you get the idea that God means there's an afterlife? Judaism is a religion that believes in God but has NO afterlife.

I would rather be dead forever than live in an eternal dictatorship. And I'd prefer an afterlife with no God.

You're assuming a dictatorial God.

"God" by definition is dictatorial. He watches you 24/7 and can convict you of thought crime. If "God" didn't have power over you, he wouldn't be God. God is an unelected, tyrannical ruler of the Universe.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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5/6/2010 8:10:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:01:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
An afterlife doesn't require God. I would rather be dead forever than live in an eternal dictatorship. And I'd prefer an afterlife with no God.

Being dead forever is simply being a slave to dirt and worms, having your freedom stolen by nature.

Living eternally under God (if God exists) ensures happiness and although you serve, you serve with a fair exchange.

In all practicality, it's just semantics of the word "freedom" that you're willing to throw away the rest of eternity for. If your dictator is benevolent in every way and you get whatever you want, what purpose is there to freedom? Freedom that you will use to try to attain what you would get from servitude anyway.

Empty your mind of meaningless ideas. Liberty is a pretty word. Freedom is a pretty word. But these are all just words. How do they manifest in reality? THAT is the question.

Liberty from life? Freedom from existence? Are these really values that are worth it?

No.

If being enslaved means serving the most benevolent master and being allowed whatever I want, whenever I want, given unlimited and eternal happiness, I would gladly give up the illusion of liberty and freedom. This slavery is freer than any other freedom in the universe.

An insignificant price for unlimited gain.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Xer
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5/6/2010 8:10:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:08:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That used to be a belief of mine in my New Age days. I believed in an Astral Plane or a higher dimension that my body would ascend to and God was completely out of the picture.

I see. Sounds cool.

Where did you get the idea that God means there's an afterlife? Judaism is a religion that believes in God but has NO afterlife.

There is an afterlife in Judaism, I'm sure. Besides, of course I'd want the God, if it were to exist, to grant a good afterlife.

"God" by definition is dictatorial. He watches you 24/7 and can convict you of thought crime. If "God" didn't have power over you, he wouldn't be God. God is an unelected, tyrannical ruler of the Universe.

If you'd like to describe God that way. If a God were to exist, I'd like to think of it as a benevolent dictator.
Kleptin
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5/6/2010 8:15:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:08:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"God" by definition is dictatorial. He watches you 24/7 and can convict you of thought crime. If "God" didn't have power over you, he wouldn't be God. God is an unelected, tyrannical ruler of the Universe.

Have a side of practicality with your idealism. If it's God, it will be a democracy and a dictatorship at the same time.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/6/2010 8:21:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:10:08 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 5/6/2010 8:01:04 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
An afterlife doesn't require God. I would rather be dead forever than live in an eternal dictatorship. And I'd prefer an afterlife with no God.

Being dead forever is simply being a slave to dirt and worms, having your freedom stolen by nature.

No. I plan to be cremated. When I die, I will lose the illusion of my ego-self, and become one with the Universe. The existence of my brain is the only reason why I suffer from imposed enslavement. It is also the only reason I identify myself as separate and isolated from the Universe. No mind, no suffering, because your mind is the recipient of all that.

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." - Mark Twain

Living eternally under God (if God exists) ensures happiness and although you serve, you serve with a fair exchange.

I refuse to have a self-imposed authority over me who forces me to serve and praise him. Such a system is incompatible with happiness.

In all practicality, it's just semantics of the word "freedom" that you're willing to throw away the rest of eternity for. If your dictator is benevolent in every way and you get whatever you want, what purpose is there to freedom?

Desire is a major cause of suffering. You can never be satisfied enough and will always want more or get bored of what's there.

Freedom that you will use to try to attain what you would get from servitude anyway.

That would be a great point if I agreed with consumerism and hedonism.

Empty your mind of meaningless ideas. Liberty is a pretty word. Freedom is a pretty word. But these are all just words.

I feel they are abused terms that have lost meaning. But the idea is still valid, at least on one level.

How do they manifest in reality? THAT is the question.

Freedom is a default position. Everyone is already free until someone attempts to take it away, or make you think that you've lost it.

Liberty from life? Freedom from existence? Are these really values that are worth it?

No.

Yes.

If being enslaved means serving the most benevolent master and being allowed whatever I want, whenever I want, given unlimited and eternal happiness, I would gladly give up the illusion of liberty and freedom. This slavery is freer than any other freedom in the universe.

Now you've just completely lost it. You prefer the owner-pet relationship rather than be fully autonomous.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
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5/6/2010 8:38:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:21:38 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No. I plan to be cremated. When I die, I will lose the illusion of my ego-self, and become one with the Universe. The existence of my brain is the only reason why I suffer from imposed enslavement. It is also the only reason I identify myself as separate and isolated from the Universe. No mind, no suffering, because your mind is the recipient of all that.

I define who I am by what I am able to do. For me, death is the ultimate slavery.

I refuse to have a self-imposed authority over me who forces me to serve and praise him. Such a system is incompatible with happiness.

That's because you ignorantly and purposefully exclude service from happiness. Have you ever volunteered at a soup kitchen? A nursing home? Have you ever been in love? If God truly exists, the service to him will not be the same as the service to Hitler or Mussolini, but one that returns love to you in incomprehensible amounts.

Desire is a major cause of suffering. You can never be satisfied enough and will always want more or get bored of what's there.

You need to brush up on your Buddhism. Desire comes from the state of living. When the needs of the body fall away to the earth, Desire no longer runs to infinity. If Christianity is truth, then service to God is Nirvana.

That would be a great point if I agreed with consumerism and hedonism.

It doesn't matter what you agree with. Unless your philosophy is to do absolutely nothing, then by all means, refuse to serve God. The problem is, however, that if God truly exists, you will not be able to die forever. You will have sent yourself to hell.

I feel they are abused terms that have lost meaning. But the idea is still valid, at least on one level.

No ideas are valid if impractical. Ideas are worthless until the second they manifest into reality, and the form it manifests in is rarely the form it existed in conceptually. Reality is not merciful to the idealistic.

Freedom is a default position. Everyone is already free until someone attempts to take it away, or make you think that you've lost it.

Freedom is an illusion. We start out enslaved by nature, by our bodies, by physics and chemistry. Our minds, even, are not of an infinitely free nature. It's all mindset.

Yes.

Then you're an idealistic fool. Nothing stops you from committing suicide right now. (But don't, this is just a hypothetical pseudo-philosophical discussion. Don't kill yourself, seriously)

Now you've just completely lost it. You prefer the owner-pet relationship rather than be fully autonomous.

And what will you practically accomplish with that autonomy? Children live in the realm of ideals and meaningless words. Adults are the ones who live in reality.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
popculturepooka
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5/6/2010 8:41:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

That's called being open, in principle, to the evidence. There is nothing wrong with that.
Now the reality of being open to evidence is much different....and I'm talking about everyone here.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/6/2010 8:55:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:38:34 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 5/6/2010 8:21:38 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
No. I plan to be cremated. When I die, I will lose the illusion of my ego-self, and become one with the Universe. The existence of my brain is the only reason why I suffer from imposed enslavement. It is also the only reason I identify myself as separate and isolated from the Universe. No mind, no suffering, because your mind is the recipient of all that.

I define who I am by what I am able to do. For me, death is the ultimate slavery.

Didn't you used to be Taoist? Remember, Chuang Tzu said:

"The man of Tao remains unknown. Perfect virtue produces nothing. "No-Self" is "True-Self." And the greatest man is Nobody" - Chuang Tzu

I refuse to have a self-imposed authority over me who forces me to serve and praise him. Such a system is incompatible with happiness.

That's because you ignorantly and purposefully exclude service from happiness. Have you ever volunteered at a soup kitchen? A nursing home? Have you ever been in love? If God truly exists, the service to him will not be the same as the service to Hitler or Mussolini, but one that returns love to you in incomprehensible amounts.

Says you and your definition of God. If it's the Christian God, certainly not. And what does "service to God" even mean? God is God, why does he need service? He's omnipotent.

Desire is a major cause of suffering. You can never be satisfied enough and will always want more or get bored of what's there.

You need to brush up on your Buddhism.

On the contrary.

Desire comes from the state of living.

Buddhism does not state that. It doesn't even specify where desire comes from. The Four Noble Truths say that desire IS the root. And desire only comes from ego-hood. So I suppose it's a combination of the existence of the ego, but desire is still the root.

When the needs of the body fall away to the earth, Desire no longer runs to infinity.

Ok. You just admitted that death ceases desire, and thus ceases suffering.

If Christianity is truth, then service to God is Nirvana.

That is a disgrace to Buddhist philosophy.

That would be a great point if I agreed with consumerism and hedonism.

It doesn't matter what you agree with. Unless your philosophy is to do absolutely nothing,

Yes, Taoism teaches wu-wei. Action through non-action.

then by all means, refuse to serve God.

Ok. Gladly.

The problem is, however, that if God truly exists, you will not be able to die forever. You will have sent yourself to hell.

Good. I'd rather be in Hell with Satan and his rebels.

I feel they are abused terms that have lost meaning. But the idea is still valid, at least on one level.

No ideas are valid if impractical. Ideas are worthless until the second they manifest into reality, and the form it manifests in is rarely the form it existed in conceptually. Reality is not merciful to the idealistic.

Agree 100%. However, I say that freedom does exist in reality and is a default position that can only be suppressed, not eliminated.

Freedom is a default position. Everyone is already free until someone attempts to take it away, or make you think that you've lost it.

Freedom is an illusion. We start out enslaved by nature, by our bodies, by physics and chemistry. Our minds, even, are not of an infinitely free nature. It's all mindset.

"Man is condemned to be free." - Jean-Paul Sartre

Yes.

Then you're an idealistic fool. Nothing stops you from committing suicide right now. (But don't, this is just a hypothetical pseudo-philosophical discussion. Don't kill yourself, seriously)

True. Nothing stops me from committing suicide because I recognize my freedom to do so.

Now you've just completely lost it. You prefer the owner-pet relationship rather than be fully autonomous.

And what will you practically accomplish with that autonomy?

There is no goal and nothing to be accomplished.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
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5/6/2010 10:24:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:55:53 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Didn't you used to be Taoist? Remember, Chuang Tzu said:

"The man of Tao remains unknown. Perfect virtue produces nothing. "No-Self" is "True-Self." And the greatest man is Nobody" - Chuang Tzu

The concept of "Mou" isn't to do nothing. It is to not go against the way of nature. "Mou" does not account for what happens after death. Nothing in Taoism does, so this is irrelevant.

Says you and your definition of God. If it's the Christian God, certainly not. And what does "service to God" even mean? God is God, why does he need service? He's omnipotent.

Precisely. You are in service to him out of love. You offer nothing of this service except the word, yet it is eternal happiness. We know nothing about the Christian God save for what was directly stated. If we serve him in heaven, there will be nothing but joy. I'd trust an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being.

Buddhism does not state that. It doesn't even specify where desire comes from. The Four Noble Truths say that desire IS the root. And desire only comes from ego-hood. So I suppose it's a combination of the existence of the ego, but desire is still the root.

It's not that Buddhism doesn't state that. It's that you haven't lived the doctrine enough to draw your own conclusions from it, but only spit back what you've memorized. Do you even have a temple in your neighborhood? Oh, you're allegedly Zen, so you don't follow scriptures, right?

Ok. You just admitted that death ceases desire, and thus ceases suffering.

Wrong. Death ceases unending desire. Desire always exists, as it exists with the soul, or whatever English translation you have. It's just that suffering no longer exists because desire can finally be met. It is the unending and infinite desire that dies with the body.

That is a disgrace to Buddhist philosophy.

Only if you assume the Christian God is false. Buddhism is not incompatible with religion.

Yes, Taoism teaches wu-wei. Action through non-action.

You fail at the application of Eastern philosophy. You should probably study taoism after you learn Chinese so that you don't flaw all the meanings with your poor western translations. "Mou-Wai" is not NON-action. It is non-contradictory action. It is to move with what is natural and according to the Dao. Literally doing *nothing* is not a teaching of Taoism. It's mockery. Furthermore, Taoism isn't applicable here. Taoism teaches one how to live in such a way as to not disturb natural harmony. After death, there is no disruption.

Good. I'd rather be in Hell with Satan and his rebels.

Where you will be enslaved just the same, but worse, because now you will be enslaved not only in name, but truly enslaved.

Agree 100%. However, I say that freedom does exist in reality and is a default position that can only be suppressed, not eliminated.

Freedom is defined by what a person can do, not by useless semantics. If you can objectively accomplish more in heaven than dead or in hell, you are more free.

To be free in name and concept but to be able to do and accomplish less is not freedom. It's stupidity.

"Man is condemned to be free." - Jean-Paul Sartre

"I have no idea what this means." - Kleptin

True. Nothing stops me from committing suicide because I recognize my freedom to do so.

The freedom to end your freedom has no practical value outside of lofty speech.

And what will you practically accomplish with that autonomy?

There is no goal and nothing to be accomplished.

Then there is no freedom.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Puck
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5/6/2010 10:56:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence

Not believing if there was absolute proof is called very bad denial. It is very bad. It is also denial.

Following said god commands is an entirely separate issue. For example, I may acknowledge the Christian God's existence were such absolute proof made clear. It does not necessarily follow that adherence to divine command is next.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?

Anti-theist is generally anti-religious institution/practice. If people want to hold certain beliefs that is their issue, not generally mine.
Freeman
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5/6/2010 10:59:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?

Well... I'm both. [Antitheism = Atheism plus the view that religion is generally harmful to society.] Some atheists think religious beliefs are great; I know better.

Hitchens sums up Antitheism best:

"I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches, and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful. Reviewing the false claims of religion I do not wish, as some sentimental agnostics affect to wish, that they were true. I do not envy believers their faith. I am relieved to think that the whole story is a sinister fairy tale; life would be miserable if what the faithful affirmed was actually the case."
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
mattrodstrom
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5/6/2010 11:39:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 8:55:53 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/6/2010 8:38:34 PM, Kleptin wrote:
It doesn't matter what you agree with. Unless your philosophy is to do absolutely nothing,

Yes, Taoism teaches wu-wei. Action through non-action.
Going along with things....

then by all means, refuse to serve God.

Ok. Gladly.
mmm.... if there was a god... master of the universe...

why oppose what cannot be helped.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
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5/7/2010 3:34:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 10:56:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence

Not believing if there was absolute proof is called very bad denial. It is very bad. It is also denial.

I don't care if he appeared right in front of me. I would tell God straight to his face with no remorse, "You DON'T exist."

[Classic song, haha]
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
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5/7/2010 5:19:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 3:34:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I don't care if he appeared right in front of me. I would tell God straight to his face with no remorse, "You DON'T exist."

To absolutely no practical purpose except to satisfy your ego and fallaciously idealistic assumptions about a reality you haven't participated in yet, most likely.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Puck
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5/7/2010 5:22:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 3:34:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I don't care if he appeared right in front of me. I would tell God straight to his face with no remorse, "You DON'T exist."

So long as you are consistent and yell at passing cars too.
Kinesis
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5/7/2010 5:42:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?

Lets assume two things are true:

A. Theism in all its forms is false.
B. The net benefit of theistic beliefs to mankind is positive.

Would you still be an anti-theist under those assumptions?
Freeman
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5/7/2010 10:40:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 5:42:00 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?

Lets assume two things are true:

A. Theism in all its forms is false.
B. The net benefit of theistic beliefs to mankind is positive.

Would you still be an anti-theist under those assumptions?

Yes

Delusions are bad, period. Secondly, there is most certainty a possible world with better benefits than our current world that doesn't have theistic beliefs.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
popculturepooka
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5/7/2010 11:12:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 3:34:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/6/2010 10:56:07 PM, Puck wrote:
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence

Not believing if there was absolute proof is called very bad denial. It is very bad. It is also denial.

I don't care if he appeared right in front of me. I would tell God straight to his face with no remorse, "You DON'T exist."



[Classic song, haha]

So, basically, you are just the same as extreme Christian fundamentalists who say that nothing whatsoever would make them non-Christians (like, say, Jesus being proven to have not existed) and that you are not open to any type of evidence whatsoever.

I believe that's called being irrational.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
vivalayeo
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5/7/2010 12:41:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would tend to be towards Anti-Theism, I'm generally opposed to religion however I can see the silver lining on the clouds, that it does provide happiness for people. I'm more opposed to those who force it upon you, who advertise it, and claim they have supreme knowledge of the working of their God's mind. I'm more of an atheist-agnostic, because I cannot claim more than there is most probably no God, but it can't be completely disproven unfortunately
Kleptin
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5/7/2010 1:33:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 5:42:00 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?

Lets assume two things are true:

A. Theism in all its forms is false.
B. The net benefit of theistic beliefs to mankind is positive.

Would you still be an anti-theist under those assumptions?

You haven't been paying attention to this thread. Geo is arguing that even if Theism in all its forms is OBJECTIVELY TRUE, he would still be Anti-Theist.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
belle
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5/7/2010 5:47:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:33:02 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 5/7/2010 5:42:00 AM, Kinesis wrote:
At 5/6/2010 7:54:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Are you an Anti-Theist or an Atheist?

Personally, I have been an Anti-Theist for quite some time. I am surprised to find that most Atheists wish for a God and would start believing if there were absolute proof of his existence or if he appeared in front of everybody.

Is this the position you take and are you Atheist or Anti-Theist? Why or why not?

Lets assume two things are true:

A. Theism in all its forms is false.
B. The net benefit of theistic beliefs to mankind is positive.

Would you still be an anti-theist under those assumptions?

You haven't been paying attention to this thread. Geo is arguing that even if Theism in all its forms is OBJECTIVELY TRUE, he would still be Anti-Theist.

he's not even saying that he would *hate* god, he is saying he would deny god's existence even with the absolute proof that he did exist. thats just absurd.

in any case, is theism net beneficial if its a lie? teeeeeeeeeeeechnically it depends on how you measure that benefit but i think having large numbers of people believing something false is extremely unbeneficial.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
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5/7/2010 6:33:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Wow. Looks like people took my post the wrong way. My response was a tongue-in-cheek answer to Puck saying that my position is strong denial.

In reality, if a being revealed himself to me and claimed to be God, I still wouldn't believe he was "God." I would assume he is an extraterrestrial with superpowers, because by definition, he is an alien for not originating from Earth. I would simply tell this being that I'm God and everyone and everything is God. This being, no matter how great, is weak and petty compared to the entire Universe.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kleptin
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5/7/2010 6:43:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 6:33:16 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Wow. Looks like people took my post the wrong way. My response was a tongue-in-cheek answer to Puck saying that my position is strong denial.

In reality, if a being revealed himself to me and claimed to be God, I still wouldn't believe he was "God." I would assume he is an extraterrestrial with superpowers, because by definition, he is an alien for not originating from Earth. I would simply tell this being that I'm God and everyone and everything is God. This being, no matter how great, is weak and petty compared to the entire Universe.

I think you knew exactly what people were saying, and so did we. We started talking about what your stance would be if God (The real God, not an alien) existed. You heroically argued that you would rather die than serve an omnipotent being. There was no doubt in your mind that you were talking about the true, real, Christian God. Not an alien.

Puck said "Absolute proof". Not "A thing proclaimed that he was God in front of you". He said "Absolute proof".

Regardless, would that change your answer?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
GeoLaureate8
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5/7/2010 6:53:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 6:43:30 PM, Kleptin wrote:
I think you knew exactly what people were saying, and so did we. We started talking about what your stance would be if God (The real God, not an alien) existed. You heroically argued that you would rather die than serve an omnipotent being.

Yes.

There was no doubt in your mind that you were talking about the true, real, Christian God. Not an alien.

Yes, and I agreed to those terms. The true and real Christian God, Yahweh, I would indeed reject.

Puck said "Absolute proof". Not "A thing proclaimed that he was God in front of you". He said "Absolute proof".

Regardless, would that change your answer?

No. I stand by what I said.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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5/7/2010 6:56:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/7/2010 1:33:02 PM, Kleptin wrote:
You haven't been paying attention to this thread. Geo is arguing that even if Theism in all its forms is OBJECTIVELY TRUE, he would still be Anti-Theist.

This pretty much sums it up.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat