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The Book Of Mormon

Moroni23
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5/12/2010 10:46:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In my opinion it all boils down to this, whether or not the Book Of Mormon is a true book, or whether it was some creation by a man with nothing better to do. If the Book Of Mormon is a true document, then Joseph Smith was a true prophet only being able to translate it threw the power of God. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet than the church he set up would be the true church with all the power and authority coming directly from God. If not, then it is all a lie and I am completely wasting my life.

So please enlighten me, share some of your thoughts about this magnificent books authenticity.
Freeman
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5/12/2010 10:49:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mormonism: A Racket Becomes a Religion
By Christopher Hitchens

If the followers of the prophet Muhammad hoped to put an end to any future "revelations" after the immaculate conception of the Koran, they reckoned without the founder of what is now one of the world's fastest-growing faiths. And they did not foresee (how could they, mammals as they were?) that the prophet of this ridiculous cult would model himself on theirs. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—hereafter known as the Mormons—was founded by a gifted opportunist who, despite couching his text in openly plagiarized Christian terms, announced that "I shall be to this generation a new Muhammad" and adopted as his fighting slogan the words, which he thought he had learned from Islam, "Either the Al-Koran or the sword." He was too ignorant to know that if you use the word al you do not need another definite article, but then he did resemble Muhammad in being able only to make a borrowing out of other people's bibles.

In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers. However, within four years he was back in the local newspapers (all of which one may still read) as the discoverer of the "Book of Mormon." He had two huge local advantages which most mountebanks and charlatans do not possess. First, he was operating in the same hectically pious district that gave us the Shakers and several other self-proclaimed American prophets. So notorious did this local tendency become that the region became known as the "Burned-Over District," in honor of the way in which it had surrendered to one religious craze after another. Second, he was operating in an area which, unlike large tracts of the newly opening North America, did possess the signs of an ancient history.
A vanished and vanquished Indian civilization had bequeathed a considerable number of burial mounds, which when randomly and amateurishly desecrated were found to contain not merely bones but also quite advanced artifacts of stone, copper, and beaten silver. There were eight of these sites within twelve miles of the underperforming farm which the Smith family called home. There were two equally stupid schools or factions who took a fascinated interest in such matters: the first were the gold-diggers and treasure-diviners who brought their magic sticks and crystals and stuffed toads to bear in the search for lucre, and the second those who hoped to find the resting place of a lost tribe of Israel. Smith's cleverness was to be a member of both groups, and to unite cupidity with half-baked anthropology.

The actual story of the imposture is almost embarrassing to read, and almost embarrassingly easy to uncover. (It has been best told by Dr. Fawn Brodie, whose 1945 book No Man Knows My History was a good-faith attempt by a professional historian to put the kindest possible interpretation on the relevant "events.") In brief, Joseph Smith announced that he had been visited (three times, as is customary) by an angel named Moroni. The said angel informed him of a book, "written upon gold plates," which explained the origins of those living on the North American continent as well as the truths of the gospel. There were, further, two magic stones, set in the twin breastplates Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament, that would enable Smith himself to translate the aforesaid book. After many wrestlings, he brought this buried apparatus home with him on September 21, 1827, about eighteen months after his conviction for fraud. He then set about producing a translation.
The resulting "books" turned out to be a record set down by ancient prophets, beginning with Nephi, son of Lephi, who had fled Jerusalem in approximately 600 BC and come to America. Many battles, curses, and afflictions accompanied their subsequent wanderings and those of their numerous progeny. How did the books turn out to be this way? Smith refused to show the golden plates to anybody, claiming that for other eyes to view them would mean death. But he encountered a problem that will be familiar to students of Islam. He was extremely glib and fluent as a debater and story-weaver, as many accounts attest. But he was illiterate, at least in the sense that while he could read a little, he could not write. A scribe was therefore necessary to take his inspired dictation. This scribe was at first his wife Emma and then, when more hands were necessary, a luckless neighbor named Martin Harris. Hearing Smith cite the words of Isaiah 29, verses 11–12, concerning the repeated injunction to "Read," Harris mortgaged his farm to help in the task and moved in with the Smiths. He sat on one side of a blanket hung across the kitchen, and Smith sat on the other with his translation stones, intoning through the blanket. As if to make this an even happier scene, Harris was warned that if he tried to glimpse the plates, or look at the prophet, he would be struck dead.
Mrs. Harris was having none of this, and was already furious with the fecklessness of her husband. She stole the first hundred and sixteen pages and challenged Smith to reproduce them, as presumably—given his power of revelation—he could. (Determined women like this appear far too seldom in the history of religion.) After a very bad few weeks, the ingenious Smith countered with another revelation. He could not replicate the original, which might be in the devil's hands by now and open to a "satanic verses" interpretation. But the all-foreseeing Lord had meanwhile furnished some smaller plates, indeed the very plates of Nephi, which told a fairly similar tale. With infinite labor, the translation was resumed, with new scriveners behind the blanket as occasion demanded, and when it was completed all the original golden plates were transported to heaven, where apparently they remain to this day.
Mormon partisans sometimes say, as do Muslims, that this cannot have been fraudulent because the work of deception would have been too much for one poor and illiterate man. They have on their side two useful points: if Muhammad was ever convicted in public of fraud and attempted necromancy we have no record of the fact, and Arabic is a language that is somewhat opaque even to the fairly fluent outsider. However, we know the Koran to be made up in part of earlier books and stories, and in the case of Smith it is likewise a simple if tedious task to discover that twenty-five thousand words of the Book of Mormon are taken directly from the Old Testament. These words can mainly be found in the chapters of Isaiah available in Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews: The Ten Tribes of Israel in America. This then popular work by a pious loony, claiming that the American Indians originated in the Middle East, seems to have started the other Smith on his gold-digging in the first place. A further two thousand words of the Book of Mormon are taken from the New Testament. Of the three hundred and fifty "names" in the book, more than one hundred come straight from the Bible and a hundred more are as near stolen as makes no difference. (The great Mark Twain famously referred to it as "chloroform in print," but I accuse him of hitting too soft a target, since the book does actually contain "The Book of Ether.") The words "and it came to pass" can be found at least two thousand times, which does admittedly have a soporific effect. Quite recent scholarship has exposed every single other Mormon "document" as at best a scrawny compromise and at worst a pitiful fake, as Dr. Brodie was obliged to notice when she reissued and updated her remarkable book in 1973.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Freeman
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5/12/2010 10:51:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Continued from above...

Like Muhammad, Smith could produce divine revelations at short notice and often simply to suit himself (especially, and like Muhammad, when he wanted a new girl and wished to take her as another wife). As a result, he overreached himself and came to a violent end, having meanwhile excommunicated almost all the poor men who had been his first disciples and who had been browbeaten into taking his dictation. Still, this story raises some very absorbing questions, concerning what happens when a plain racket turns into a serious religion before our eyes.

It must be said for the "Latter-day Saints" (these conceited words were added to Smith's original "Church of Jesus Christ" in 1833) that they have squarely faced one of the great difficulties of revealed religion. This is the problem of what to do about those who were born before the exclusive "revelation," or who died without ever having the opportunity to share in its wonders. Christians used to resolve this problem by saying that Jesus descended into hell after his crucifixion, where it is thought that he saved or converted the dead. There is indeed a fine passage in Dante's Inferno where he comes to rescue the spirits of great men like Aristotle, who had presumably been boiling away for centuries until he got around to them. (In another less ecumenical scene from the same book, the Prophet Muhammad is found being disemboweled in revolting detail.) The Mormons have improved on this rather backdated solution with something very literal-minded. They have assembled a gigantic genealogical database at a huge repository in Utah, and are busy filling it with the names of all people whose births, marriages, and deaths have been tabulated since records began. This is very useful if you want to look up your own family tree, and as long as you do not object to having your ancestors becoming Mormons. Every week, at special ceremonies in Mormon temples, the congregations meet and are given a certain quota of names of the departed to "pray in" to their church. This retrospective baptism of the dead seems harmless enough to me, but the American Jewish Committee became incensed when it was discovered that the Mormons had acquired the records of the Nazi "final solution," and were industriously baptizing what for once could truly be called a "lost tribe": the murdered Jews of Europe. For all its touching inefficacy, this exercise seemed in poor taste. I sympathize with the American Jewish Committee, but I nonetheless think that the followers of Mr. Smith should be congratulated for hitting upon even the most simpleminded technological solution to a problem that has defied solution ever since man first invented religion.

http://www.slate.com...
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
Moroni23
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5/12/2010 11:15:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 10:49:49 PM, Freeman wrote:
Mormonism: A Racket Becomes a Religion
By Christopher Hitchens


If the followers of the prophet Muhammad hoped to put an end to any future "revelations" after the immaculate conception of the Koran, they reckoned without the founder of what is now one of the world's fastest-growing faiths. And they did not foresee (how could they, mammals as they were?) that the prophet of this ridiculous cult would model himself on theirs. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—hereafter known as the Mormons—was founded by a gifted opportunist who, despite couching his text in openly plagiarized Christian terms, announced that "I shall be to this generation a new Muhammad" and adopted as his fighting slogan the words, which he thought he had learned from Islam, "Either the Al-Koran or the sword." He was too ignorant to know that if you use the word al you do not need another definite article, but then he did resemble Muhammad in being able only to make a borrowing out of other people's bibles.

In March 1826 a court in Bainbridge, New York, convicted a twenty-one-year-old man of being "a disorderly person and an impostor." That ought to have been all we ever heard of Joseph Smith, who at trial admitted to defrauding citizens by organizing mad gold-digging expeditions and also to claiming to possess dark or "necromantic" powers. However, within four years he was back in the local newspapers (all of which one may still read) as the discoverer of the "Book of Mormon." He had two huge local advantages which most mountebanks and charlatans do not possess. First, he was operating in the same hectically pious district that gave us the Shakers and several other self-proclaimed American prophets. So notorious did this local tendency become that the region became known as the "Burned-Over District," in honor of the way in which it had surrendered to one religious craze after another. Second, he was operating in an area which, unlike large tracts of the newly opening North America, did possess the signs of an ancient history.
A vanished and vanquished Indian civilization had bequeathed a considerable number of burial mounds, which when randomly and amateurishly desecrated were found to contain not merely bones but also quite advanced artifacts of stone, copper, and beaten silver. There were eight of these sites within twelve miles of the underperforming farm which the Smith family called home. There were two equally stupid schools or factions who took a fascinated interest in such matters: the first were the gold-diggers and treasure-diviners who brought their magic sticks and crystals and stuffed toads to bear in the search for lucre, and the second those who hoped to find the resting place of a lost tribe of Israel. Smith's cleverness was to be a member of both groups, and to unite cupidity with half-baked anthropology.

The actual story of the imposture is almost embarrassing to read, and almost embarrassingly easy to uncover. (It has been best told by Dr. Fawn Brodie, whose 1945 book No Man Knows My History was a good-faith attempt by a professional historian to put the kindest possible interpretation on the relevant "events.") In brief, Joseph Smith announced that he had been visited (three times, as is customary) by an angel named Moroni. The said angel informed him of a book, "written upon gold plates," which explained the origins of those living on the North American continent as well as the truths of the gospel. There were, further, two magic stones, set in the twin breastplates Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament, that would enable Smith himself to translate the aforesaid book. After many wrestlings, he brought this buried apparatus home with him on September 21, 1827, about eighteen months after his conviction for fraud. He then set about producing a translation.
The resulting "books" turned out to be a record set down by ancient prophets, beginning with Nephi, son of Lephi, who had fled Jerusalem in approximately 600 BC and come to America. Many battles, curses, and afflictions accompanied their subsequent wanderings and those of their numerous progeny. How did the books turn out to be this way? Smith refused to show the golden plates to anybody, claiming that for other eyes to view them would mean death. But he encountered a problem that will be familiar to students of Islam. He was extremely glib and fluent as a debater and story-weaver, as many accounts attest. But he was illiterate, at least in the sense that while he could read a little, he could not write. A scribe was therefore necessary to take his inspired dictation. This scribe was at first his wife Emma and then, when more hands were necessary, a luckless neighbor named Martin Harris. Hearing Smith cite the words of Isaiah 29, verses 11–12, concerning the repeated injunction to "Read," Harris mortgaged his farm to help in the task and moved in with the Smiths. He sat on one side of a blanket hung across the kitchen, and Smith sat on the other with his translation stones, intoning through the blanket. As if to make this an even happier scene, Harris was warned that if he tried to glimpse the plates, or look at the prophet, he would be struck dead.
Mrs. Harris was having none of this, and was already furious with the fecklessness of her husband. She stole the first hundred and sixteen pages and challenged Smith to reproduce them, as presumably—given his power of revelation—he could. (Determined women like this appear far too seldom in the history of religion.) After a very bad few weeks, the ingenious Smith countered with another revelation. He could not replicate the original, which might be in the devil's hands by now and open to a "satanic verses" interpretation. But the all-foreseeing Lord had meanwhile furnished some smaller plates, indeed the very plates of Nephi, which told a fairly similar tale. With infinite labor, the translation was resumed, with new scriveners behind the blanket as occasion demanded, and when it was completed all the original golden plates were transported to heaven, where apparently they remain to this day.
Mormon partisans sometimes say, as do Muslims, that this cannot have been fraudulent because the work of deception would have been too much for one poor and illiterate man. They have on their side two useful points: if Muhammad was ever convicted in public of fraud and attempted necromancy we have no record of the fact, and Arabic is a language that is somewhat opaque even to the fairly fluent outsider. However, we know the Koran to be made up in part of earlier books and stories, and in the case of Smith it is likewise a simple if tedious task to discover that twenty-five thousand words of the Book of Mormon are taken directly from the Old Testament. These words can mainly be found in the chapters of Isaiah available in Ethan Smith's View of the Hebrews: The Ten Tribes of Israel in America. This then popular work by a pious loony, claiming that the American Indians originated in the Middle East, seems to have started the other Smith on his gold-digging in the first place. A further two thousand words of the Book of Mormon are taken from the New Testament. Of the three hundred and fifty "names" in the book, more than one hundred come straight from the Bible and a hundred more are as near stolen as makes no difference. (The great Mark Twain famously referred to it as "chloroform in print," but I accuse him of hitting too soft a target, since the book does actually contain "The Book of Ether.") The words "and it came to pass" can be found at least two thousand times, which does admittedly have a soporific effect. Quite recent scholarship has exposed every single other Mormon "document" as at best a scrawny compromise and at worst a pitiful fake, as Dr. Brodie was obliged to notice when she reissued and updated her remarkable book in 1973.

Ahh... but Freeman, you fail to see the
Moroni23
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5/12/2010 11:16:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ahh... but Freeman, you fail to see the injustice in the early American justice system. You based your claim for the books inaccuracy because of Joseph Smiths apparent conviction to be an "imposer, and practicing necromancy." I have personalty never herd of this acclaim, but i wouldn't doubt its authenticity because many many times in our early history has out justice system unrighteous accused and killed many people on false claims such as the Salem witch trails, and the Scottsboro Case. Of course those woman were not really witches however they were tried in court, convicted, and killed. At the time the prosecution would claim that they confessed to practicing witchcraft. I would suspect that all that evidence you can show of "Joseph Smith admitting to being a fraud" was in some way or another manipulated at that time. The people were scared for what Joseph Smith was teaching, and they wanted to do everything in their power to stop it. Much like our very own Jesus Christ, who was faulsly accused and convicted of blasphemy. In his cause they claimed he had admitted to blasphemy, However Joseph Smith was no were near the same level as Jesus Christ, and during Jesus's trial he knew that nothing he could say would make a difference, so he simply said nothing. I predict Joseph Smith tried to defend himself and in some way or another they manipulated it.
However this still have nothing to do with the topic. Can the Book Of Mormon be proven wrong? Can the Book Of Mormon be proven right? It all boils down to that question.
InsertNameHere
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5/12/2010 11:18:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:16:12 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
Ahh... but Freeman, you fail to see the injustice in the early American justice system. You based your claim for the books inaccuracy because of Joseph Smiths apparent conviction to be an "imposer, and practicing necromancy." I have personalty never herd of this acclaim, but i wouldn't doubt its authenticity because many many times in our early history has out justice system unrighteous accused and killed many people on false claims such as the Salem witch trails, and the Scottsboro Case. Of course those woman were not really witches however they were tried in court, convicted, and killed. At the time the prosecution would claim that they confessed to practicing witchcraft. I would suspect that all that evidence you can show of "Joseph Smith admitting to being a fraud" was in some way or another manipulated at that time. The people were scared for what Joseph Smith was teaching, and they wanted to do everything in their power to stop it. Much like our very own Jesus Christ, who was faulsly accused and convicted of blasphemy. In his cause they claimed he had admitted to blasphemy, However Joseph Smith was no were near the same level as Jesus Christ, and during Jesus's trial he knew that nothing he could say would make a difference, so he simply said nothing. I predict Joseph Smith tried to defend himself and in some way or another they manipulated it.
However this still have nothing to do with the topic. Can the Book Of Mormon be proven wrong? Can the Book Of Mormon be proven right? It all boils down to that question.

Freeman is an atheist so will generally post things like that. :P btw, welcome to the site!
Moroni23
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5/12/2010 11:20:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thank you i find it rather odd honestly :p I accidentally posted something and i couldn't delete it? Oh well I'll figure things out eventually. The people in this online community seem very well informed witch makes me happy because I'm honestly tired of debating with people who have no idea what they are talking about :).
InsertNameHere
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5/12/2010 11:21:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:20:40 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
Thank you i find it rather odd honestly :p I accidentally posted something and i couldn't delete it? Oh well I'll figure things out eventually. The people in this online community seem very well informed witch makes me happy because I'm honestly tired of debating with people who have no idea what they are talking about :).

Haha, I feel you. I really only have one friend I can discuss these issues with. The others just look at me like "what?"
Puck
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5/12/2010 11:24:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Meh, it's a con man's con, comprised of large chunks of the KJV and a book published a few years prior about native american history.
Moroni23
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5/12/2010 11:31:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:24:56 PM, Puck wrote:
Meh, it's a con man's con, comprised of large chunks of the KJV and a book published a few years prior about native american history.

Then tell me how you explain it running hand and hand with the bible? 200 years its been in tact and nobody can seam to prove it wrong. Ezekiel 37:16-17 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick and write upon it for Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions, then take another stick, and write upon it for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." This is a vision this prophet is having were he see's the last days, he sees a book form Judah, or the Bible, and a book from Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, or the Book of Mormon.
Puck
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5/12/2010 11:35:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:31:44 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 5/12/2010 11:24:56 PM, Puck wrote:
Meh, it's a con man's con, comprised of large chunks of the KJV and a book published a few years prior about native american history.

Then tell me how you explain it running hand and hand with the bible?

Huh?

200 years its been in tact and nobody can seam to prove it wrong.

Prove what wrong? You mean the multiple egregious historical, paleontological, paleogeographical, genomic errors?

Ezekiel 37:16-17 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick and write upon it for Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions, then take another stick, and write upon it for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions." This is a vision this prophet is having were he see's the last days, he sees a book form Judah, or the Bible, and a book from Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, or the Book of Mormon.

That's called retroffiting and really doesn't mean anything for your case. A con man reading the bible and 'writing' a new one also fits.
GeoLaureate8
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5/12/2010 11:36:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Joseph Smith was a deceptive Freemason. That should be an immediate red flag.
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Moroni23
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5/12/2010 11:52:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
That's called retroffiting and really doesn't mean anything for your case. A con man reading the bible and 'writing' a new one also fits.

Not necessarily, to further understand the significance of this verse you have to understand that Latter Day Saints also teach they are from the tribe of Ephrium, when you get baptized to the Lds church you are adopted unto the tribe of Ephrium. That verse is literally saying a stick, or book, from the tribe of Judah, (or the Bible written by the Jews) and a stick, or a book, from the tribe of Ephrium, (or writen by the Nephites and Laminates, and anybody who comes from the stem of Josheph.) It also goes on to say that thoes two books would be combined into one and would fit in somebody's hand as if it were one book. He was litteraly seeing a vision of this day were we have a thing called a "quad scriptures," It is the Book of Mormon, BIble, and other documents from the stem of Joseph combined into one book, and it fits into ones hand. http://deseretbook.com...
Freeman
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5/12/2010 11:58:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:18:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 11:16:12 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
Ahh... but Freeman, you fail to see the injustice in the early American justice system. You based your claim for the books inaccuracy because of Joseph Smiths apparent conviction to be an "imposer, and practicing necromancy." I have personalty never herd of this acclaim, but i wouldn't doubt its authenticity because many many times in our early history has out justice system unrighteous accused and killed many people on false claims such as the Salem witch trails, and the Scottsboro Case. Of course those woman were not really witches however they were tried in court, convicted, and killed. At the time the prosecution would claim that they confessed to practicing witchcraft. I would suspect that all that evidence you can show of "Joseph Smith admitting to being a fraud" was in some way or another manipulated at that time. The people were scared for what Joseph Smith was teaching, and they wanted to do everything in their power to stop it. Much like our very own Jesus Christ, who was faulsly accused and convicted of blasphemy. In his cause they claimed he had admitted to blasphemy, However Joseph Smith was no were near the same level as Jesus Christ, and during Jesus's trial he knew that nothing he could say would make a difference, so he simply said nothing. I predict Joseph Smith tried to defend himself and in some way or another they manipulated it.
However this still have nothing to do with the topic. Can the Book Of Mormon be proven wrong? Can the Book Of Mormon be proven right? It all boils down to that question.

Freeman is an atheist so will generally post things like that. :P btw, welcome to the site!

You know me too well. :P

Interestingly, I got about halfway through an essay that entailed a really tough critique of the Mormon religion, and then I realized something: there is no one on this site that would debate me on it. And Kahvan already said he's not interested in debating Mormonism. :(
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

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Puck
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5/12/2010 11:59:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:52:16 PM, Moroni23 wrote:
That's called retroffiting and really doesn't mean anything for your case. A con man reading the bible and 'writing' a new one also fits.

Not necessarily, to further understand the significance of this verse you have to understand that Latter Day Saints also teach they are from the tribe of Ephrium, when you get baptized to the Lds church you are adopted unto the tribe of Ephrium. That verse is literally saying a stick, or book, from the tribe of Judah, (or the Bible written by the Jews) and a stick, or a book, from the tribe of Ephrium, (or writen by the Nephites and Laminates, and anybody who comes from the stem of Josheph.) It also goes on to say that thoes two books would be combined into one and would fit in somebody's hand as if it were one book. He was litteraly seeing a vision of this day were we have a thing called a "quad scriptures," It is the Book of Mormon, BIble, and other documents from the stem of Joseph combined into one book, and it fits into ones hand. http://deseretbook.com...

Nope. Doesn't do a single thing for your case at all. Let's say person X predicts Y. Person Z reads X and for their own interests makes Y happen. Has X predicted Y or has Z caused Y to happen based on a meaningless statement by X to further their own perceived interests. The fact that Z while creating Y can retrofit it to X's claim means 'X predicted Y based on Z' entirely arbitrary.
Freeman
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5/13/2010 12:10:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:01:09 AM, Puck wrote:
Plus you are ignoring both Freeman's and my claim that it's just a huge plagiarisation for the most part. :)

Not to belittle the new person, but Mormonism is just plain ridiculous. A serious person can't arrive at a different conclusion.

For example, in Helaman 1 (1:14) the Book of Mormon claims:

1:14 And it came to pass in the forty and first year of the reign of the judges, that the Lamanites had gathered together an innumerable army of men, and armed them with swords, and with cimeters and with bows, and with arrows, and with head-plates, and with breastplates, and with all manner of shields of every kind.

"The Lamanites (Native Americans) had "an innumerable army" with swords and scimitars. Yet no evidence for such weapons in the pre-Columbian New World has ever been found." The skeptics annotated Book of Mormon hits the nail on the head. http://www.project-reason.org...
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

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Moroni23
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5/13/2010 12:12:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:58:12 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 5/12/2010 11:18:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/12/2010 11:16:12 PM, Moroni23 wrote:

I realized something: there is no one on this site that would debate me on it. And Kahvan already said he's not interested in debating Mormonism. :(

I'll debate you on it, however i'm still new to this site so you'll have to help me to understand how "debating" workds :)
Puck
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5/13/2010 12:13:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/12/2010 11:58:12 PM, Freeman wrote:

Interestingly, I got about halfway through an essay that entailed a really tough critique of the Mormon religion, and then I realized something: there is no one on this site that would debate me on it. And Kahvan already said he's not interested in debating Mormonism. :(

heart_of_the_matter is the only other Mormon I can think of. He hasn't really been on much though.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/13/2010 12:15:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:13:33 AM, Puck wrote:
At 5/12/2010 11:58:12 PM, Freeman wrote:

Interestingly, I got about halfway through an essay that entailed a really tough critique of the Mormon religion, and then I realized something: there is no one on this site that would debate me on it. And Kahvan already said he's not interested in debating Mormonism. :(

heart_of_the_matter is the only other Mormon I can think of. He hasn't really been on much though.

There's somebody called left_wing_mormon. I have seen him around on debates.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/13/2010 12:17:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:15:36 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/13/2010 12:13:33 AM, Puck wrote:
At 5/12/2010 11:58:12 PM, Freeman wrote:

Interestingly, I got about halfway through an essay that entailed a really tough critique of the Mormon religion, and then I realized something: there is no one on this site that would debate me on it. And Kahvan already said he's not interested in debating Mormonism. :(

heart_of_the_matter is the only other Mormon I can think of. He hasn't really been on much though.

There's somebody called left_wing_mormon. I have seen him around on debates.

Ah true. About as active as heart_of_the_matter.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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5/13/2010 12:19:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:10:01 AM, Freeman wrote:
At 5/13/2010 12:01:09 AM, Puck wrote:


"The Lamanites (Native Americans) had "an innumerable army" with swords and scimitars. Yet no evidence for such weapons in the pre-Columbian New World has ever been found."

So you'll implying that if you travel to England, were their is no doubt about an ancient civilization with numerous swords and shields, that you will find every weapon and piece of armor that was used by those magnificent army's? Absolutely not. In fact if you do find a piece of ancient weaponry it will be worth a great deal of Money. Their is no doubt that England had a massive army, and that it was more than likely greater than the size of the Laminates, but were is all its weaponry? That means medieval England never existed? Because their are no signs of its weaponry? The only weaponry from England we have, is what has been preserved, and passed down by Generations.
Puck
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5/13/2010 12:33:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:32:29 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wait, Native Americans had swords? I doubt that. I thought they just had spears and arrowheads.

Stop buying into the media lies!!
InsertNameHere
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5/13/2010 12:36:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:33:29 AM, Puck wrote:
At 5/13/2010 12:32:29 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wait, Native Americans had swords? I doubt that. I thought they just had spears and arrowheads.

Stop buying into the media lies!!

Haha. :P
Hurstman
Posts: 739
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5/13/2010 7:39:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
If I were to pick a religion, it would be Mormonism. Just saying
Cody_Franklin- "You aren't the sharpest bulb in the box, are you?"

Strikeeagle84015- "Why would you want a sharp bulb?"

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people" --Eleanor Roosevelt
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/13/2010 7:42:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 7:39:56 AM, Hurstman wrote:
If I were to pick a religion, it would be Mormonism. Just saying

is it for the magic underwear??

or the empowerment of thinking of yourself as a future God???
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Hurstman
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5/13/2010 7:46:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 7:42:21 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/13/2010 7:39:56 AM, Hurstman wrote:
If I were to pick a religion, it would be Mormonism. Just saying

is it for the magic underwear??

or the empowerment of thinking of yourself as a future God???

Magic underwear? The future God thing always interested me, but I didn't know many non mormans knew about that. The morman who told me said it was deeper doctrine, and only told me to shut up my complex questions.
Cody_Franklin- "You aren't the sharpest bulb in the box, are you?"

Strikeeagle84015- "Why would you want a sharp bulb?"

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people" --Eleanor Roosevelt
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/13/2010 7:48:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 12:32:29 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wait, Native Americans had swords? I doubt that. I thought they just had spears and arrowheads.

They had a type of sword at least.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.