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Atheists, are you grateful?

Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/28/2014 5:07:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

A Martian banished to earth 200 years ago is the source of everything before the mysterious man existed? Doubtful.

For luck which allows you to experience dopamine... For natural law which granted you the superiority of you opinion... For atoms interactions which granted you supreme intellect and morality overriding all else... For natural selection which brought the illusion of meaningfulness... For yourself for your personal realization of your eliteness and superiority over all particles in the universe... Amen.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/28/2014 5:12:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 5:07:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

A Martian banished to earth 200 years ago is the source of everything before the mysterious man existed? Doubtful.

Okay, I am sure there is some inside joke there, sorry if I am not privy to it.

For luck which allows you to experience dopamine... For natural law which granted you the superiority of you opinion... For atoms interactions which granted you supreme intellect and morality overriding all else...

For natural selection which brought the illusion of meaningfulness...
LOL!
Thats the best part!

For yourself for your personal realization of your eliteness and superiority over all particles in the universe... Amen.

I guess, in time maybe. Working on it though. Let me know when the Magic Man in the Sky delivers you your next batch of goodies, though, I wanna see who picked up the tab.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/28/2014 5:53:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

Yup. I am thankful to my family for raising me. To my friends for humouring me. And for my pets for.... Using me.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

Why would I be grateful to those?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

I am not sure if it's coherent to be thankful for my own existence. Anthropic principle and all.

To our superiority, Amen.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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11/28/2014 6:30:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

You are incredibly funny people.
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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11/28/2014 6:33:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just to understand your POV.
Are you grateful for your child's stillbirth?
Tell me oh sweet thang.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,490
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11/28/2014 7:42:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

So your life is just about randomness lol.
Never fart near dog
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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11/28/2014 7:43:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Definitely, some of the silliest reasoning I've seen in a while, especially considering natural selection is not random. You may want to learn something about it before making silly threads.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/28/2014 8:49:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 7:42:22 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

So your life is just about randomness lol.

Indeed. There are a LOT of things that were outside of my scope of control, but I am glad that it didn't go south. I could have been born to different parents in extremist countries, or locations where running water was a luxury, but I wasn't.

As my life progressed, I was able to begin to control the variables and take the reigns on my own. I began to make most of my own luck, if you could call it that. Random sickness didn't befall me, though I controlled a LOT of the things that might encourage it, and started to make it less random, and a lot more ordered.

Though I have to ask, if one is thankful for all the blessings that come one's way, provided by a Magic Man in the Sky...

does one also attribute the bad things to Him too? Or was that beyond His concern, or power to control?

Or did you deserve the bad things, but not the blessings, since they are gifts?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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11/28/2014 9:26:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If I am thankful that I do not truly believe in imaginary beings, to whom must I be thankful for that? Probably myself, really...
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/28/2014 9:28:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

If you understand that there is a difference then why do you assume the latter applies to us?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/28/2014 9:28:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 5:12:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:07:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

A Martian banished to earth 200 years ago is the source of everything before the mysterious man existed? Doubtful.

Okay, I am sure there is some inside joke there, sorry if I am not privy to it.

The only "magic man" I heard of or could find is a character in Adventure time (I am not responsible for any loss of brain cells).

For luck which allows you to experience dopamine... For natural law which granted you the superiority of you opinion... For atoms interactions which granted you supreme intellect and morality overriding all else...

For natural selection which brought the illusion of meaningfulness...
LOL!
Thats the best part!

Indeed.
https://www.ted.com...

For yourself for your personal realization of your eliteness and superiority over all particles in the universe... Amen.

I guess, in time maybe. Working on it though. Let me know when the Magic Man in the Sky delivers you your next batch of goodies, though, I wanna see who picked up the tab.

Can't wait for you to share your prayer.

Let us praise this evolutionary nexus, a far more stately mansion for the human soul than any pretty or parochial comfort ever conjured by our swollen neurology to obscure the source of our physical being, or to deny the natural substrate for our separate and complementary spiritual quest.
-S. J. Gould
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
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11/28/2014 9:28:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 5:53:20 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

Yup. I am thankful to my family for raising me. To my friends for humouring me. And for my pets for.... Using me.

Hence, I assume you are grateful for the existence of your family, friends, and pets. And that gratefulness & appreciation goes to...

If you're game, I'm game. You are free to initiate the "push the problem further" game.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

Why would I be grateful to those?

Because gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

I am not sure if it's coherent to be thankful for my own existence. Anthropic principle and all.

I am not sure it is coherent to be thankful for anything in Atheism, as it presupposes that there are "good thing" and "bad things". Who decides that, chemicals? Is there a self, do we have a body or are we our bodies and the processes we have no control over?

Are beliefs, say in geocentarism, based on and justified by what helps us survive and produce offspring?
http://www.nytimes.com...

To our superiority, Amen.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/28/2014 9:35:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:28:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:53:20 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

Yup. I am thankful to my family for raising me. To my friends for humouring me. And for my pets for.... Using me.

Hence, I assume you are grateful for the existence of your family, friends, and pets. And that gratefulness & appreciation goes to...

If you're game, I'm game. You are free to initiate the "push the problem further" game.

I don't see where that problem is going, lol. I am grateful to my family, FOR my family. I am grateful to my friends, FOR my friends.


However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

Why would I be grateful to those?

Because gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists?

I mean, why should I be grateful to evolution and natural law? Seems rather silly to be so. Should I be grateful for statistical mechanics that doesn't randomly let me asphyxiate ? Lol.

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

I am not sure if it's coherent to be thankful for my own existence. Anthropic principle and all.

I am not sure it is coherent to be thankful for anything in Atheism, as it presupposes that there are "good thing" and "bad things". Who decides that, chemicals? Is there a self, do we have a body or are we our bodies and the processes we have no control over?

Well, I am only thankful for things that fulfil my self-interest. Which in egoism gives "Good for me" statements. Since I define "good for me" by what maximises my self-interest.

Are beliefs, say in geocentarism, based on and justified by what helps us survive and produce offspring?
http://www.nytimes.com...

Nah.
http://plato.stanford.edu...

To our superiority, Amen.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/28/2014 9:36:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:28:45 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:12:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:07:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

A Martian banished to earth 200 years ago is the source of everything before the mysterious man existed? Doubtful.

Okay, I am sure there is some inside joke there, sorry if I am not privy to it.

The only "magic man" I heard of or could find is a character in Adventure time (I am not responsible for any loss of brain cells).

Oh, and the one in the Bible. And the Koran. You haven't heard of them? Their qualities make them supernatural. Mystical. Beyond understand. Ephemeral.

An inkblot.


For luck which allows you to experience dopamine... For natural law which granted you the superiority of you opinion... For atoms interactions which granted you supreme intellect and morality overriding all else...

For natural selection which brought the illusion of meaningfulness...
LOL!
Thats the best part!

Indeed.
https://www.ted.com...

For yourself for your personal realization of your eliteness and superiority over all particles in the universe... Amen.

I guess, in time maybe. Working on it though. Let me know when the Magic Man in the Sky delivers you your next batch of goodies, though, I wanna see who picked up the tab.

Can't wait for you to share your prayer.

No prayer required. That infers there is some one on the other end listening. ;)

Let us praise this evolutionary nexus, a far more stately mansion for the human soul than any pretty or parochial comfort ever conjured by our swollen neurology to obscure the source of our physical being, or to deny the natural substrate for our separate and complementary spiritual quest.
-S. J. Gould

I have a better idea. Lets take a moment to realize we actually have a hand in our lives. A big one, and it netted us some really great things and people whom in turned helped us to be great, and we helped them to be great, and the meaning that (apparently you need) can be derived from literally what is around you now, rather than what MIGHT lie beyond.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
DPMartin
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11/28/2014 9:38:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 7:43:03 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Definitely, some of the silliest reasoning I've seen in a while, especially considering natural selection is not random. You may want to learn something about it before making silly threads.

Well if its controlled then what controlled it? Where is it in ToE that says anything but whatever is or was the environment affected the outcome? And if you call that control then what created the environment that yielded the manifestation of life forms? And is it the conditions for life to be manifest to be met? If so, could it be life that is in control? The requirement necessary for life to be in the universe. Is that a requirement of the universe, or of a source of life? And if it"s the source of life, could it be the requirement itself is the source of life, that is in control of the manifestation of life in the universe?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/28/2014 9:40:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:28:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:53:20 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

Yup. I am thankful to my family for raising me. To my friends for humouring me. And for my pets for.... Using me.

Hence, I assume you are grateful for the existence of your family, friends, and pets. And that gratefulness & appreciation goes to...

If you're game, I'm game. You are free to initiate the "push the problem further" game.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

Why would I be grateful to those?

Because gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

I am not sure if it's coherent to be thankful for my own existence. Anthropic principle and all.

I am not sure it is coherent to be thankful for anything in Atheism, as it presupposes that there are "good thing" and "bad things". Who decides that, chemicals? Is there a self, do we have a body or are we our bodies and the processes we have no control over?

Are beliefs, say in geocentarism, based on and justified by what helps us survive and produce offspring?
http://www.nytimes.com...

To our superiority, Amen.

Wait wait wait...

"Because gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists?" ---- okay, the qualities of things that I am thankful for would come from the object or person itself, if we are gonna play the 'all the way back' game, we are gonna then be asking 'OKay, well whatever ethereal nebulous place that formed God', but I have this creeping suspicion you aren't interested in looking past that line, or also granting that if the things you are thankful for come from Him, there fore so must the BAD things and adversity.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 9:55:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 6:33:07 AM, bulproof wrote:
Just to understand your POV.
Are you grateful for your child's stillbirth?
Tell me oh sweet thang.

A complex question fallacy as it assumes I have or had a child in stillbirth.
However, if the answer you are looking for is toward the question with the format: "What would you do if your child had a stillbirth", then sure thing bitter nobody!

Suhaib reported that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said:
Strange are the ways of a believer for there is good in every affair of his and this is not the case with anyone else except in the case of a believer for if he has an occasion to feel delight, he thanks (God), thus there is a good for him in it, and if he gets into trouble and shows resignation (and endures it patiently), there is a good for him in it.

Sahih Muslim, Book 42, Hadith 7138

Definitely, some of the silliest reasoning I've seen in a while, especially considering natural selection is not random. You may want to learn something about it before making silly threads.

Lol! I love stereotypical "evolution defenders" and their "You don"t understand evolution!" defense mechanism. I see it engaged automatically without you paying attention while reading, interesting.
Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 10:03:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:26:37 AM, Fly wrote:
If I am thankful that I do not truly believe in imaginary beings, to whom must I be thankful for that? Probably myself, really...

Oh yes, circular gratitude brings the false sensation of satisfaction, I've heard.

Never heard anyone saying "I believe in imaginary beings", but oh well.
Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 10:08:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:28:35 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

If you understand that there is a difference then why do you assume the latter applies to us?

Because I assume the existence of "Atheist gratitude".
Double_R
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11/28/2014 10:10:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 10:08:40 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:28:35 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

If you understand that there is a difference then why do you assume the latter applies to us?

Because I assume the existence of "Atheist gratitude".

Ah, so you assume because you assume.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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11/28/2014 10:15:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm grateful to the people in my life for their love and company, and for all of the experiences we've had together. This isn't hard.
Fly
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11/28/2014 10:27:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
To sum up the ploy of this thread:

P1: To be grateful requires an object for that gratitude
P2: Atheists lack the ultimate object for gratitude

C: Atheists are either illogical in their gratitude or are simply ungrateful bastards.

Brilliant. (Not really...)
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 10:49:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:35:49 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:28:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:53:20 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

Yup. I am thankful to my family for raising me. To my friends for humouring me. And for my pets for.... Using me.

Hence, I assume you are grateful for the existence of your family, friends, and pets. And that gratefulness & appreciation goes to...

If you're game, I'm game. You are free to initiate the "push the problem further" game.

I don't see where that problem is going, lol. I am grateful to my family, FOR my family. I am grateful to my friends, FOR my friends.

I invoke the law of non-contradiction. Your family cannot bring your family when your family didn't exist. Your friends cannot bring your friends when your friends didn't exist.


However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

Why would I be grateful to those?

Because gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists?

I mean, why should I be grateful to evolution and natural law? Seems rather silly to be so. Should I be grateful for statistical mechanics that doesn't randomly let me asphyxiate ? Lol.

If you are grateful that you do not occasionally get smothered then that is a valid option.

But hey, there is still the possibility (not necessarily choice) to not be grateful for something.

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

I am not sure if it's coherent to be thankful for my own existence. Anthropic principle and all.

I am not sure it is coherent to be thankful for anything in Atheism, as it presupposes that there are "good thing" and "bad things". Who decides that, chemicals? Is there a self, do we have a body or are we our bodies and the processes we have no control over?

Well, I am only thankful for things that fulfil my self-interest. Which in egoism gives "Good for me" statements. Since I define "good for me" by what maximises my self-interest.

And I suppose luck, randomness, and natural law are the source of what granted you the things that fulfill your self-interest?

We could also make the arbitrary unfalsifiable claim that when people choose to litter they are unconsciously altruistic and want to secure jobs for unskilled workers, or save time in order to do what they believe helps others, but I digress. Chemicals still decided that.


Are beliefs, say in geocentarism, based on and justified by what helps us survive and produce offspring?
http://www.nytimes.com...

Nah.
http://plato.stanford.edu...

My point stands; it is the case that beliefs in a world of Atheism are merely byproducts of a non-rational processes, or biological impulses.

To our superiority, Amen.
FaustianJustice
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11/28/2014 11:21:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

My point stands; it is the case that beliefs in a world of Atheism are merely byproducts of a non-rational processes, or biological impulses.\

Finally! Okay....

No. Your case is then made of a misunderstanding. Non rational infers there is no good reason, when in fact, there is a lot of demonstrable reason, both past and present that would explain the world around us now. Its also because a LACK of following biological impulses that we are hear now, as opposed to still living in caves. When can go back as far as you want, but for purposes of your ploy, lets keep it to... say.... a thousand or so BC.

Much like capitalism, and the rise of big business, that is how primordial life worked. The good got stronger, and the worst slowly faded out. Once rational thought was developed, and patterns or observations could be acted on, all that changed. The good got smarter, which allowed for faster developments in understanding. This gave rise to philosophy and technology. The unexplained was then chalked up to the supernatural. As philosophy and technology developed, the supernatural got smaller and smaller, or at least adapted enough to reinvent itself to remain relevant.

While this does not rule out a creator, it does call into question its role in our society now, unless you would prefer to argue why one particular religion is more correct than another as to how the creator views this world, which is ultimately futile, given the past few centuries have only given rise to more questions than answers about it.

In any case, if you are thankful to him, her, it, etc, who is to blame for the faults and adversities, and why do you feel that only the good rains down on you while all that bad stuff is... well... what it is?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 11:25:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 9:36:03 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:28:45 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:12:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:07:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

A Martian banished to earth 200 years ago is the source of everything before the mysterious man existed? Doubtful.

Okay, I am sure there is some inside joke there, sorry if I am not privy to it.

The only "magic man" I heard of or could find is a character in Adventure time (I am not responsible for any loss of brain cells).

Oh, and the one in the Bible. And the Koran. You haven't heard of them? Their qualities make them supernatural. Mystical. Beyond understand. Ephemeral.

An inkblot.


I don't see anyone advocating that they are a man, homo sapien, or humanoid (putting aside bible tidbits), thus you are strawmanning.
Yes, if God created the law of nature, then it doesn't apply to Him. We don't understand a lot about gravity, but people still managed to conclude that it exists. Last I've heard, God is described as eternal, not ephemeral.


For luck which allows you to experience dopamine... For natural law which granted you the superiority of you opinion... For atoms interactions which granted you supreme intellect and morality overriding all else...

For natural selection which brought the illusion of meaningfulness...
LOL!
Thats the best part!

Indeed.
https://www.ted.com...

For yourself for your personal realization of your eliteness and superiority over all particles in the universe... Amen.

I guess, in time maybe. Working on it though. Let me know when the Magic Man in the Sky delivers you your next batch of goodies, though, I wanna see who picked up the tab.

Can't wait for you to share your prayer.

No prayer required. That infers there is some one on the other end listening. ;)

Then we can compromise, pray for nothing! :3

Let us praise this evolutionary nexus, a far more stately mansion for the human soul than any pretty or parochial comfort ever conjured by our swollen neurology to obscure the source of our physical being, or to deny the natural substrate for our separate and complementary spiritual quest.
-S. J. Gould


I have a better idea. Lets take a moment to realize we actually have a hand in our lives. A big one, and it netted us some really great things and people whom in turned helped us to be great, and we helped them to be great, and the meaning that (apparently you need) can be derived from literally what is around you now, rather than what MIGHT lie beyond.

Right, real big hand. Like our DNA, our ability to see, hear, and think, move, and interact, our teachers, our schools, our home, our families, our health, etc. I mean those are ineffectual tiny things compared to. say, choosing what to buy in the supermarket...

Our ability to do things with our hands is dependent on having other things a priori.

What do you mean by "great things" and to who? More atoms? I mean I am sure pests can consider finding shelter in your home great.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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11/28/2014 11:29:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 10:49:27 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:35:49 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:28:48 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:53:20 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

Yup. I am thankful to my family for raising me. To my friends for humouring me. And for my pets for.... Using me.

Hence, I assume you are grateful for the existence of your family, friends, and pets. And that gratefulness & appreciation goes to...

If you're game, I'm game. You are free to initiate the "push the problem further" game.

I don't see where that problem is going, lol. I am grateful to my family, FOR my family. I am grateful to my friends, FOR my friends.

I invoke the law of non-contradiction. Your family cannot bring your family when your family didn't exist. Your friends cannot bring your friends when your friends didn't exist.

But they do exist.


However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

Why would I be grateful to those?

Because gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists?

I mean, why should I be grateful to evolution and natural law? Seems rather silly to be so. Should I be grateful for statistical mechanics that doesn't randomly let me asphyxiate ? Lol.

If you are grateful that you do not occasionally get smothered then that is a valid option.

But hey, there is still the possibility (not necessarily choice) to not be grateful for something.

It's incoherent.

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

I am not sure if it's coherent to be thankful for my own existence. Anthropic principle and all.

I am not sure it is coherent to be thankful for anything in Atheism, as it presupposes that there are "good thing" and "bad things". Who decides that, chemicals? Is there a self, do we have a body or are we our bodies and the processes we have no control over?

Well, I am only thankful for things that fulfil my self-interest. Which in egoism gives "Good for me" statements. Since I define "good for me" by what maximises my self-interest.

And I suppose luck, randomness, and natural law are the source of what granted you the things that fulfill your self-interest?

We could also make the arbitrary unfalsifiable claim that when people choose to litter they are unconsciously altruistic and want to secure jobs for unskilled workers, or save time in order to do what they believe helps others, but I digress. Chemicals still decided that.

If your thesis was going to be an attack on free will and intentionality, then why didn't you say so from the outset rather than this rather dishonest roundabout route you have taken?

Further, It seems like you are conflating objectivity vs subjectivity. Intentionality exists regardless of whether or not determinism is true, as it is subjective to the conscious person.

Furthermore, gratitude is to show appreciation, which is to show recognition for the act done.

And I appreciate intentionality which fulfils my self interest, so gratitude is a useful social tool to use in society. The difference is they are an agent.


Are beliefs, say in geocentarism, based on and justified by what helps us survive and produce offspring?
http://www.nytimes.com...

Nah.
http://plato.stanford.edu...

My point stands; it is the case that beliefs in a world of Atheism are merely byproducts of a non-rational processes, or biological impulses.

Well, I am not grateful for my existence. So we can get rid if that strawman,

To our superiority, Amen.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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11/28/2014 11:36:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 11:25:12 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:36:03 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:28:45 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:12:47 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 5:07:44 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:40:01 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

Evolution? Natural law?

If you are grateful to natural law, then you might as well be grateful for the source of the natural laws since it is contingent. But why should we bother to take that extra step?
Let's just thank random mutations, natural selection, and luck for you being in the right place and time. Thank randomness.

Lets all be grateful for our luck and randomness which produced us and our families. But what really is lucky is that it somehow made you and your family somehow superior to all others.

To our superiority, Amen.

Fine, then the Magic man in the sky did it.

It was all part of His plan. You had zero effect on the life you live now, it couldn't have happened any other way. You are thankful for His benevolent gifts that you had no hand in earning. Just be sure to keep the collection plate passed.

Now, back here, in reality, I am thankful that I live in a country that applies equality in the law, that I was able to get an education, that my parents aided me rather than abused me, that indeed the random unfortunates in life haven't claimed me or those close to me, at least to the point of being forgone.

A Martian banished to earth 200 years ago is the source of everything before the mysterious man existed? Doubtful.

Okay, I am sure there is some inside joke there, sorry if I am not privy to it.

The only "magic man" I heard of or could find is a character in Adventure time (I am not responsible for any loss of brain cells).

Oh, and the one in the Bible. And the Koran. You haven't heard of them? Their qualities make them supernatural. Mystical. Beyond understand. Ephemeral.

An inkblot.


I don't see anyone advocating that they are a man, homo sapien, or humanoid (putting aside bible tidbits), thus you are strawmanning.
Yes, if God created the law of nature, then it doesn't apply to Him. We don't understand a lot about gravity, but people still managed to conclude that it exists. Last I've heard, God is described as eternal, not ephemeral.

And a father. And us being created in his image. (humanoid), etc etc. C'mon, man, there is argument for the sake of argument, then just deciding to ignore the intent.


For luck which allows you to experience dopamine... For natural law which granted you the superiority of you opinion... For atoms interactions which granted you supreme intellect and morality overriding all else...

For natural selection which brought the illusion of meaningfulness...
LOL!
Thats the best part!

Indeed.
https://www.ted.com...

For yourself for your personal realization of your eliteness and superiority over all particles in the universe... Amen.

I guess, in time maybe. Working on it though. Let me know when the Magic Man in the Sky delivers you your next batch of goodies, though, I wanna see who picked up the tab.

Can't wait for you to share your prayer.

No prayer required. That infers there is some one on the other end listening. ;)

Then we can compromise, pray for nothing! :3

Let us praise this evolutionary nexus, a far more stately mansion for the human soul than any pretty or parochial comfort ever conjured by our swollen neurology to obscure the source of our physical being, or to deny the natural substrate for our separate and complementary spiritual quest.
-S. J. Gould


I have a better idea. Lets take a moment to realize we actually have a hand in our lives. A big one, and it netted us some really great things and people whom in turned helped us to be great, and we helped them to be great, and the meaning that (apparently you need) can be derived from literally what is around you now, rather than what MIGHT lie beyond.

Right, real big hand. Like our DNA, our ability to see, hear, and think, move, and interact, our teachers, our schools, our home, our families, our health, etc. I mean those are ineffectual tiny things compared to. say, choosing what to buy in the supermarket...

Our ability to do things with our hands is dependent on having other things a priori.

'a hand in'. Are you familiar with this rather common phrase? Did you not have influence in your school, your home, your family, your health, how you interact, your ability to think or move? Who is pulling your strings, if you no ability of your own?

What do you mean by "great things" and to who? More atoms? I mean I am sure pests can consider finding shelter in your home great.

Safety, security, stability, family, great things to me, my family, friends. To do great things for them as well.

I don't know what pests consider to be great. I will take your word for it.

Is this your MO, dissect common parlance to make arguments?

You are awfully full of questions for a guy whom makes assumptive posts.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Dragonfang
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11/28/2014 11:40:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 11/28/2014 10:10:13 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2014 10:08:40 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 11/28/2014 9:28:35 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2014 4:14:03 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
Are you grateful?

For you life, family, all that jazz, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
Probably.

However, expressing gratitude FOR something is not the same as expressing gratitude TOWARD something. Gratitude requires an object which is the source of the benefit for which gratitude exists. So who or what are you grateful to?

If you understand that there is a difference then why do you assume the latter applies to us?

Because I assume the existence of "Atheist gratitude".

Ah, so you assume because you assume.

Yes, and like we assume the principles of logic and that the earth is round when making our... more detailed inquiries.
However, if you find the issue question begging, we could go to the alternative that consistent Atheists cannot be grateful.

At 11/28/2014 10:15:37 AM, Burzmali wrote:
I'm grateful to the people in my life for their love and company, and for all of the experiences we've had together. This isn't hard.

So you are grateful that these people existed and for having the ability to interact with them. Thank you evolution!