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Grace Alone

Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true. And after all, it sound more fair and just right, everyone shouldn't just be ‘let into' heaven, they should go through something first. And in a since I would tend to agree that something much like what he proposes about a ‘spirit prison' he himself will wait in until he believes in god and then is let into heaven, except the one I believe exist will be much more painful to wait in, and the pain will part of what prepares the unbelievers for heaven.

However, apart from that, even starting from scratch (meaning not concerning oneself with what the bible says) one should not desire to have to earn there way into to heaven but desire a scenario that brings you their by grace alone. Hurstman thinks if he stays true to what he currently believes to be ‘good' he should be okay and so should other people who stay true to what they believe to be ‘good'.
Problem is, no such people exist. In fact, the repeating common occurrences where its clear people are failing to meet there own standard of ‘goodness' is so common that its quite possible its as common as people having eyes, legs, and arms. There is really no reason to believe any human alive is making that mark.

Let me explain why its clear no one makes the mark.

In arguments (simple ones) sometimes you get statements like ‘How would you like it if anyone did the same to you?' ‘that's my seat, I was there first' ‘leave him alone he isn't doing you any harm' ‘why should you shove in first' ‘give me some of your orange, I gave you a bit of mine' or ‘come on you promised'. Educated people, and uneducated people use arguments like these. Children will use them, and so will adults.
The important thing about these statements are they all imply some sort of standard of decent behavior (or morality) to appeal to. And if a person is ever told one of these things they don't ever go, ‘forget your standard, it is stupid' instead they try to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if it does there's a special excuse. He might pretend there is some special reason for why the person who had the seat first should not keep it, or things were different when he was given a bit of orange, something's come up that let him off from keeping his promise.
It seems clear that everyone holds in common enough what right and wrong are, good and bad. If the idea was of good and bad was not, then there is absolutely no hope for appealing to each other that our standard is better.
When you boil it down, we all have the same standard in mind of write and wrong. Sometimes a person can be mistaken about this Law of Morality, just as a person could get there sums wrong, but morality cannot be considered to like different according to a persons taste any more than the multiplication table can.
Its clear that no one is keeping to this moral code though. I am trying to call to the attention the fact that sometime this year, month, week, or more likely this very day, we have failed to practice the common moral code, even that we have right. That we in some way have not practiced the behavior we expect from other people. There may be plenty of excuse we provide ourselves; That time you were unfair to the children was when you were very tired. The shady business about the money came up when you were shorthanded. The promise you gave to bob about doing something you would have never made if you new how busy you would be that day. How you treated your sibling or spouse that one time, that one wouldn't wonder at it if one knew how irritating they can be. I don't keep it either, and when people tell me I'm not a string of excuses come to mind that are longer than your arm. Are the excuses good? It doesn't matter, because my point is not about the excuses but that its clear we believe in this common objective code of morality so deeply that we make those excuses because we cannot bear to face the fact that we break this code. If not why would we be so anxious or quick to make explanations for why we have not broken it?
Now that that's aside….
If I steal 20 dollars from you, that would be an injustice against you. If later one day when you need 20 dollars I give you 20 dollars, you might feel better about me but it does not revert the fact of the injustice I did to you. Stealing from you in the first place was just as unjust as it would have been had I never gave you money later on. In a religious view that is a just and fair one, some consequence must be given for the injustice and it cannot be ignored. A penalty has to be paid by someone. The dilemma is that no one is without need of paying a penalty. And once in need of paying it what is one to do? For good actions though might rectify the extent of the damage you may have caused by acting ‘bad'. You are truly without means to pay this mortgage, so it has to be done by someone else who is not in your situation and can afford to pay that debt. That's the essence of being saved by grace. Once its paid its paid, your own good actions from that point on cannot be said to have any bearing on paying that debt because it was already completely paid.

If your ever wish to ‘pick a religion' you should pick one that actually has a solution to the problem of the consequences to breaking the moral standard, because no matter what you think that standard is, if your honest with yourself you'll find you have broken it. That is why it is important to choose a faith that you are saved by grace and grace alone, for that way you will not delude yourself of a day that you will have done enough to make up for all the wrong you've done, for that day just is not going to come.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Hurstman
Posts: 739
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5/13/2010 8:27:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
A post based around my idea? I feel special. =). I will reply to this soon, and explain why I disagree.
Cody_Franklin- "You aren't the sharpest bulb in the box, are you?"

Strikeeagle84015- "Why would you want a sharp bulb?"

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people" --Eleanor Roosevelt
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Moroni23
Posts: 235
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5/14/2010 12:36:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

1)Lol i hope you are not implying that i'm not a christian because i'm Mormon. I believe in Christ, i believe in Christ just as much as any christian you will ever meet. If you think that because i'm Mormon i'm not a christian you are highly misinformed.

2) Please don't speak when you have no idea what you are talking about.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/14/2010 12:38:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 12:36:18 AM, Moroni23 wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

1)Lol i hope you are not implying that i'm not a christian because i'm Mormon. I believe in Christ, i believe in Christ just as much as any christian you will ever meet. If you think that because i'm Mormon i'm not a christian you are highly misinformed.

2) Please don't speak when you have no idea what you are talking about.

Not the sharpest knife in the draw are you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/14/2010 5:19:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
humans aren't perfect, ergo we shouldn't have to try? remember, your god is omnipotent- i'm sure he can tell the difference between trying your very hardest to be a good person and not really giving a f*ck either way yet expecting (groveling?) to be saved.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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5/14/2010 7:01:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
That's hot.
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/14/2010 8:33:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 5:19:23 AM, belle wrote:
humans aren't perfect, ergo we shouldn't have to try? remember, your god is omnipotent- i'm sure he can tell the difference between trying your very hardest to be a good person and not really giving a f*ck either way yet expecting (groveling?) to be saved.

True redemption is a beautiful thing in the eyes of God and man.
omelet
Posts: 416
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5/14/2010 8:54:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Memories, experience, and decision-making all occurs in the brain.
The brain rots when we die.
There's no reason to even bother thinking about an "afterlife" unless you accept the wild premise that when we die, our "spirit," which doesn't really do anything in this life, goes to some spiritual dimension and obtains a spiritual version of a brain that will have conscious continuity with the physical brain that has ceased to function.

Basically, it's an extreme case of wishful thinking.
innomen
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5/14/2010 9:06:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 8:54:27 AM, omelet wrote:
Memories, experience, and decision-making all occurs in the brain.
The brain rots when we die.
There's no reason to even bother thinking about an "afterlife" unless you accept the wild premise that when we die, our "spirit," which doesn't really do anything in this life, goes to some spiritual dimension and obtains a spiritual version of a brain that will have conscious continuity with the physical brain that has ceased to function.

Basically, it's an extreme case of wishful thinking.

How do you know?
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/14/2010 9:46:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/13/2010 6:09:09 PM, Puck wrote:
Soooooooo basically just another version of Pascal's wager. Good to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org... obviously you need to look up Pascals Wager. it purely has to do with why one should believe in God. I did not put anything about why you should believe, the perspective I was concerned with is after one has already determined they believe in god. Is it really more fair to saved by works than it would be by simple grace?

Believe it or not, not every thread in the religous forum is the 'does god exist' debate. their are other topics to move on from once you just assume one way or the other worthy of conversation.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.

Please learn to think before you talk.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/14/2010 9:56:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 5:19:23 AM, belle wrote:
humans aren't perfect, ergo we shouldn't have to try? remember, your god is omnipotent- i'm sure he can tell the difference between trying your very hardest to be a good person and not really giving a f*ck either way yet expecting (groveling?) to be saved.

Once you have christ in your life; yes the next thing you learn is you should have to try your very hardest. but its not a prerequesite to being able to enter the body of christ. in the eternal salvation since its not important. But beyond that it still remaines important for you life after salvation. you will still be rewarded in ways you would not have if you try your very hardest as opposed to not careing and doing no good works at all.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/14/2010 9:59:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 8:54:27 AM, omelet wrote:
Memories, experience, and decision-making all occurs in the brain.
The brain rots when we die.
There's no reason to even bother thinking about an "afterlife" unless you accept the wild premise that when we die, our "spirit," which doesn't really do anything in this life, goes to some spiritual dimension and obtains a spiritual version of a brain that will have conscious continuity with the physical brain that has ceased to function.

Basically, it's an extreme case of wishful thinking.

It seems yours has already quit functioning yet you seem fine.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/17/2010 4:11:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 5:19:23 AM, belle wrote:
humans aren't perfect, ergo we shouldn't have to try? remember, your god is omnipotent- i'm sure he can tell the difference between trying your very hardest to be a good person and not really giving a f*ck either way yet expecting (groveling?) to be saved.

*REPORTED (expletive)
The Cross.. the Cross.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/17/2010 5:29:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.

Please learn to think before you talk.

Please learn the very basics of your religion, read the bible maybe? Salvation is gained through faith, and action. You should have knowledge of about 620 laws, and actually follow some of them. In addition charitable actions are an actual requirement according to God himself. Honestly is there a Christian here who actually knows what their faith entails?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/17/2010 5:31:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 4:11:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/14/2010 5:19:23 AM, belle wrote:
humans aren't perfect, ergo we shouldn't have to try? remember, your god is omnipotent- i'm sure he can tell the difference between trying your very hardest to be a good person and not really giving a f*ck either way yet expecting (groveling?) to be saved.

*REPORTED (expletive)

Oh shut up you prissy little prick.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/17/2010 5:55:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 9:46:53 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:09:09 PM, Puck wrote:
Soooooooo basically just another version of Pascal's wager. Good to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org... obviously you need to look up Pascals Wager. it purely has to do with why one should believe in God. I did not put anything about why you should believe, the perspective I was concerned with is after one has already determined they believe in god. Is it really more fair to saved by works than it would be by simple grace?

Believe it or not, not every thread in the religous forum is the 'does god exist' debate. their are other topics to move on from once you just assume one way or the other worthy of conversation.

Your entire argument follows the same structure as Pascal's - a form of probability, the bet, that the choice you advocate returns the best odds of a good outcome over other choices - hence, just another Pascal type argument. Try not to get so worked up, bad for health and all that. :)
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/17/2010 9:32:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 5:29:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.

Please learn to think before you talk.

Please learn the very basics of your religion, read the bible maybe? Salvation is gained through faith, and action. You should have knowledge of about 620 laws, and actually follow some of them. In addition charitable actions are an actual requirement according to God himself. Honestly is there a Christian here who actually knows what their faith entails?

Go read Romans Chapter 3
we are told to do good, but not as prerequisite to salvation.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/17/2010 9:37:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" -James 2:14

The problem is that the book you're referring to contradicts itself.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/17/2010 9:44:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 9:37:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.


"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" -James 2:14

The problem is that the book you're referring to contradicts itself.

Yes it does and the net sum of Christian scripture requires,
1: The learning of over a hundred laws.
2: The observance of as many of these as you can.
3: The following of the noahide laws.
4: A belief in Jesus Christ.
5: Good deeds.

However, half arsed Christians like Maruader and Datch will never understand this, God forbid they should spend five minutes learning what their religion entails.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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5/18/2010 4:10:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 5:31:12 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/17/2010 4:11:38 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 5/14/2010 5:19:23 AM, belle wrote:
humans aren't perfect, ergo we shouldn't have to try? remember, your god is omnipotent- i'm sure he can tell the difference between trying your very hardest to be a good person and not really giving a f*ck either way yet expecting (groveling?) to be saved.

*REPORTED (expletive)

Oh shut up you prissy little prick.

Or you'll do what?
pretend to have an opinion?
(wait for it) WASH your hands of me? (again!)

Some of us actually CARE about DDO and some of us actually have standards..

Toodle pip!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/18/2010 9:29:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 9:37:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.


"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" -James 2:14

The problem is that the book you're referring to contradicts itself.

a stated question is not a contradiction to a stated statement. 'what does it profit?' like a candle burning underneath a bushel, though the candle may burn just fine what good is it? it is rather useless if its light cannot be seen. James goes on to stress that you without works even if you do have faith, you are still a useless christian, your faith might as well be dead.
Though you might be saved by christ alone, if you ever want to leave behind the elementry principals of the faith and push on to a sinless perfection (Hebrews 6) you will need to take James advice and start with the good works. Antinomianism in its mos extream use as justifiying no works at all has plauge the church for a very long time. But there is a difference in Justification,and Sanctification. If a church dosnt distinguish the two there usally the kind that does not even recognize sanctification as possible. There bibles have Hebrews 6 changed so that the perectionist language is avoided, changing 'perfecton' to 'spiritual maturity' left with this watered down message they have to take James in perspective to justifying grace alone for that is all that there is to them.

there are 4 graces you recieve over time. Previeneint grace: before your saved.Justifying grace: when your saved (baptism). Sanctifiying grace: the rest of your life. and Glorifying grace: after the day of judgement.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/18/2010 9:52:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thank you for completely contradicting yourself.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/18/2010 9:54:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/17/2010 9:44:31 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/17/2010 9:37:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 5/14/2010 9:52:49 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/14/2010 12:00:48 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/13/2010 6:03:17 PM, Marauder wrote:
Recently it was proposed by one of our newcomers agnostic, Hurstman, that if he was to choose a religion to believe it would be most fair sounding to go by how the Mormons go, in that people should be saved by their works in relation to their own system of values. I as a Christian immediately thought to discourage that but than it occurred to me that, he, unlike me, is starting from scratch when it comes a view about what theology would be best to desire being true.

1: That is Christianity.
2: You are not a Christian.
3: Please learn your own claimed religion.

Narcy, though it is adorible when a agnostic thinks he knows what my church teaches though he himself dosent read or care about the book that largely defines it, would you like to add to intelligence to you statement by showing a scripture reference that would indicate the Bible I am suposed to belive in does indeed teach we are saved by our works? Go to romans chapter 3 read it all. its quite clear we are not save by good works but by faith.


"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" -James 2:14

The problem is that the book you're referring to contradicts itself.

Yes it does and the net sum of Christian scripture requires,...

Christian theology has 4 sources narcy, Scripture, Tradition, Reasoning, and Experience. http://groups.apu.edu...

Scripture alone leads to Bibleidolotry: worship of a book and not God
Tradition's extreme is keeping them for the sake that it is traditional
Reasoning extreme leads to deism like Thomas Jefferson was.
Experience extreme leads to stuff like jesus on burnt toast.

You need to take them all in balance. and that is exactly what the my church (http://www.umc.org...) teaches.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/18/2010 9:55:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/18/2010 9:52:12 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Thank you for completely contradicting yourself.

I have contradicted nothing.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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5/18/2010 12:04:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
a stated question is not a contradiction to a stated statement.

It's a rhetorical question, the obvious answer being nothing, not "one of four graces."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.