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Paradox?

tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/2/2014 5:50:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Yes and no.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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12/2/2014 5:58:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

the same logic is like asking if God can create another God? if he does that, that (2) God is created but the definition of God is uncreated. so the question is inconsistent in the first place. so God does whatever he wills in his definitions, he is one,all powerful,eternal etc.... if God can do anything he can kill himself? no. because you must be consistent with the other definitions of God - eternal all knowing all seeing...
Never fart near dog
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 6:04:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

Yes and no.

Specifics?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 6:05:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
the same logic is like asking if God can create another God? if he does that, that (2) God is created but the definition of God is uncreated. so the question is inconsistent in the first place. so God does whatever he wills in his definitions, he is one,all powerful,eternal etc.... if God can do anything he can kill himself? no. because you must be consistent with the other definitions of God - eternal all knowing all seeing...

What if the only definition is all-powerful?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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12/2/2014 6:12:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:05:29 PM, tabularasa wrote:
the same logic is like asking if God can create another God? if he does that, that (2) God is created but the definition of God is uncreated. so the question is inconsistent in the first place. so God does whatever he wills in his definitions, he is one,all powerful,eternal etc.... if God can do anything he can kill himself? no. because you must be consistent with the other definitions of God - eternal all knowing all seeing...

What if the only definition is all-powerful?

saying only "all powerful" you are saying he has the power to live eternally and also he has power to commit suicide so i think its a bit problem dont you think? :D
Never fart near dog
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/2/2014 6:16:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Depends on how you define "all-powerful".

IF All-Powerful is literally just "The Ability to do Anything" then the paradox of the stone pretty much rules him incoherent. Yes.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 6:17:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:12:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 12/2/2014 6:05:29 PM, tabularasa wrote:
the same logic is like asking if God can create another God? if he does that, that (2) God is created but the definition of God is uncreated. so the question is inconsistent in the first place. so God does whatever he wills in his definitions, he is one,all powerful,eternal etc.... if God can do anything he can kill himself? no. because you must be consistent with the other definitions of God - eternal all knowing all seeing...

What if the only definition is all-powerful?

saying only "all powerful" you are saying he has the power to live eternally and also he has power to commit suicide so i think its a bit problem dont you think? :D

If that were what I was saying, then yes, this would be a bit of a problem. Are eternal life and suicide implied in the definition of "all-powerful"?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 6:20:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:16:55 PM, Envisage wrote:
Depends on how you define "all-powerful".

IF All-Powerful is literally just "The Ability to do Anything" then the paradox of the stone pretty much rules him incoherent. Yes.

Is that the correct definition of "all-powerful"? And what is "anything"? He is ruled "incoherent" because the rock question produces a paradox?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/2/2014 6:26:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:20:18 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/2/2014 6:16:55 PM, Envisage wrote:
Depends on how you define "all-powerful".

IF All-Powerful is literally just "The Ability to do Anything" then the paradox of the stone pretty much rules him incoherent. Yes.

Is that the correct definition of "all-powerful"? And what is "anything"? He is ruled "incoherent" because the rock question produces a paradox?

There is no such thing as a "correct" definition of all-powerful. There are just bad definitions and not-so-bad definitions.
tabularasa
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12/2/2014 6:30:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

There is no such thing as a "correct" definition of all-powerful. There are just bad definitions and not-so-bad definitions.

What are the bad ones? What are the really bad ones?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/2/2014 6:50:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:04:39 PM, tabularasa wrote:

Yes and no.

Specifics?

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

The answer is No if the "being"is separate from its own creation. If it created something more powerful than itself it would no longer have all power within itself.

The answer is Yes if the "being' is its own creation which continues to grow over time.
That would be like watching you become more powerful or stronger than you currently are by exercising your own power/strength. It means that at any time of your own existence you would remain all powerful (referring to being as strong as you can possibly be at that time) while at the same time making yourself stronger through exercise.

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

The answer is No if the "being" is separate from the rock. An all powerful being can lift anything.
The answer is Yes if the "being" is the rock. No rock can lift itself no matter how large or small it might be. It would need to rely on another force to lift it.

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

The answer is Yes. Size is irrelevant. You don't need to be all-powerful to create something bigger than yourself. Any human can also create something larger/ bigger than themselves. Creating something bigger than yourself does not mean your creation is more powerful than you are. It just means it is larger.
mrsatan
Posts: 425
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12/2/2014 6:55:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

No. Not so much a paradox as it is a logical absurdity.

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Same as the previous question, except that this is a physical absurdity, as well. Can an all-powerful being lift the Earth? No, because the Earth is rock so big that it doesn't rest on the ground, because it is the ground. There is nothing to lift it from.

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

Sure... Of course, this isn't a logical absurdity... Or a paradox... Unless, by "bigger", you mean something other than physical size, but that is how it reads to me.

Omni-(whatever) paradoxes have one fatal flaw. They assume the extreme. For instance, they define omnipotence as, "able to do anything", when the more sensible way to define it would be, "able to do anything that can be done".
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/2/2014 6:57:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:12:03 PM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 12/2/2014 6:05:29 PM, tabularasa wrote:
the same logic is like asking if God can create another God? if he does that, that (2) God is created but the definition of God is uncreated. so the question is inconsistent in the first place. so God does whatever he wills in his definitions, he is one,all powerful,eternal etc.... if God can do anything he can kill himself? no. because you must be consistent with the other definitions of God - eternal all knowing all seeing...

What if the only definition is all-powerful?

saying only "all powerful" you are saying he has the power to live eternally and also he has power to commit suicide so i think its a bit problem dont you think? :D

No. Its a problem at all.

The concept of something destroying itself in the process of living is quite logical.
Life passes away/ dies all the time in the process of growth and change( living).
Time passes away/ dies all the time in the process of existing. The past is always dying/ passing away. It is always being replaced by the "future" which is always coming but changes into the present as soon as it arrives.
Every split second on Earth is dying and living at the very same time. It lives eternally and also commits suicide. That is the power of Father Time. God = Father Time.

When you understand that paradox you will be enlightened.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 7:04:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

The answer is No if the "being"is separate from its own creation. If it created something more powerful than itself it would no longer have all power within itself.

The answer is Yes if the "being' is its own creation which continues to grow over time.
That would be like watching you become more powerful or stronger than you currently are by exercising your own power/strength. It means that at any time of your own existence you would remain all powerful (referring to being as strong as you can possibly be at that time) while at the same time making yourself stronger through exercise.


Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

The answer is No if the "being" is separate from the rock. An all powerful being can lift anything.
The answer is Yes if the "being" is the rock. No rock can lift itself no matter how large or small it might be. It would need to rely on another force to lift it.


Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

The answer is Yes. Size is irrelevant. You don't need to be all-powerful to create something bigger than yourself. Any human can also create something larger/ bigger than themselves. Creating something bigger than yourself does not mean your creation is more powerful than you are. It just means it is larger.

I think the answers to 1 and 3 are solid. In answer to 2, does "anything" include something that is too big for the being to lift? Or is the question whether such a rock could be created in the first place? Also, I am not sure how the being could be the rock. Nor am I sure how the being would not be able to lift itself, being at the same time an all-powerful being and a rock.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 7:08:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 6:55:45 PM, mrsatan wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

No. Not so much a paradox as it is a logical absurdity.

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Same as the previous question, except that this is a physical absurdity, as well. Can an all-powerful being lift the Earth? No, because the Earth is rock so big that it doesn't rest on the ground, because it is the ground. There is nothing to lift it from.

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

Sure... Of course, this isn't a logical absurdity... Or a paradox... Unless, by "bigger", you mean something other than physical size, but that is how it reads to me.

Omni-(whatever) paradoxes have one fatal flaw. They assume the extreme. For instance, they define omnipotence as, "able to do anything", when the more sensible way to define it would be, "able to do anything that can be done".

Best answer that I can think of.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/2/2014 7:26:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Nonsensical question. Can God make a square circle?

Can God be invisible and pink at the same time?

By asking such questions does not argue for or against the real or logical possibility of God existing.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/2/2014 7:35:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

This is the classic problem of logical contradictions. Most theologians and apologists don't attempt to define God in ways that contradict logic for this reason. To assert that God can do the logically impossible is to dismiss the need for logic altogether, which makes you irrational by definition and thus not worthy of any attempt at intelligent discussion. But it also opens up quite a can of worms for most theists, since most of the attributes they often ascribe to God contradict each other.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/2/2014 7:41:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Dwelling on the subject of omniscience or omnipotence is like trying to imagine eternity. It can't be done. And yet both religion and science speak of eternity as if it were a real possibility. Heck, physicists even speak of quantum-physics as being "counter-intuitive", because the mind can't grasp it. Does that mean that the quantum world doesn't really exist? Of course it doesn't. It is somehow tied into the human psyche to believe we are capable of grasping any concept if we study it enough, but that's not true. Using reason, I would imagine that words like omnipotence and omniscience came about during an age when a civilization's strength was often measured by the strength of its gods. It would be logical, then, to describe one's own God as all-everything, sort of like the games we play with our children when we say "I love you more than the whole world!" and then they say "I love you more than the whole universe", etc., etc .
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/2/2014 7:49:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

The real paradox is God creating anything.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 7:50:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 7:26:17 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Nonsensical question. Can God make a square circle?

Can God be invisible and pink at the same time?

By asking such questions does not argue for or against the real or logical possibility of God existing.

1. I don't think so.
2. Yes.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/2/2014 7:58:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 7:50:32 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/2/2014 7:26:17 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Nonsensical question. Can God make a square circle?

Can God be invisible and pink at the same time?

By asking such questions does not argue for or against the real or logical possibility of God existing.

1. I don't think so.
2. Yes.

No I'm saying asking or bringing up such "paradoxs" do not add anything to a debate about the existence of God.

It proposes something illogical as if it is a way of pointing out an improbability of a Real God existing.

But not so.

reply to 2. Pink is a color. how can you have a perception of color when the object is invisible.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/2/2014 8:01:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 7:26:17 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Nonsensical question. Can God make a square circle?

Can God be invisible and pink at the same time?

By asking such questions does not argue for or against the real or logical possibility of God existing.

It means some definitions of "all-powerful" are incoherent/logically consistent. And there are many who do hold to the definition that these arguments address.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 8:23:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 7:58:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 7:50:32 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/2/2014 7:26:17 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Nonsensical question. Can God make a square circle?

Can God be invisible and pink at the same time?

By asking such questions does not argue for or against the real or logical possibility of God existing.

1. I don't think so.
2. Yes.

No I'm saying asking or bringing up such "paradoxs" do not add anything to a debate about the existence of God.

It proposes something illogical as if it is a way of pointing out an improbability of a Real God existing.

But not so.

reply to 2. Pink is a color. how can you have a perception of color when the object is invisible.

If there were a paradox here, this would be an argument against the being's existence. At least, it allows us to logically infer a couple of things about the nature of God (see the post below yours).

A pink God could be invisible everyone but himself. Invisible is a term which can mean that only one can see x, some can see x, or no one can see x. If I can't see x, x is invisible to me. There may be pink rock in the middle of the earth that no one can see. My neighbor Jeff may have a pink shirt in his closet that he is currently looking at. Because of walls, distance, and loneliness, Jeff is the only one who can see it. It follows that it is invisible to everyone else. X being pink and invisible is possible under a couple of definitions of invisible.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/2/2014 8:34:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 7:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

The answer is No if the "being" is separate from the rock. An all powerful being can lift anything.
The answer is Yes if the "being" is the rock. No rock can lift itself no matter how large or small it might be. It would need to rely on another force to lift it.


In answer to 2, does "anything" include something that is too big for the being to lift? Or is the question whether such a rock could be created in the first place? Also, I am not sure how the being could be the rock. Nor am I sure how the being would not be able to lift itself, being at the same time an all-powerful being and a rock.

The word "Anything" applies to anything that can be lifted in the first place. When you talk about a rock most people immediately think about physical rocks on planet Earth. Mrsatan however came up with a novel concept comparing the earth itself to a rock.
Mrsatan said "...................... Can an all-powerful being lift the Earth? No, because the Earth is rock so big that it doesn't rest on the ground, because it is the ground. There is nothing to lift it from."

What is interesting about mrsatans statement is the concept of the Earth being the rock which exists in space. Size is irrelevant when you consider that anything is space is weightless regardless of size. Can anything weightless be lifted? Of course it can. Is anything weightless too big to lift? of course not. It could be pushed in any direction in space by a force which has the power to move it. Does size make any difference? No it does not.

Then you also need to consider the word " lift" is relative and subjective to human perspective and also to the plane from which you wish to lift the object. If something is not resting on a plane, how can you lift it off the plane? Moving something from one location to another is not necessarily "lifting" it, is it?

The being "God" in the bible is referred to as "the rock". In that sense the rock is not a literal rock but a metaphorical rock which refers to stability.
Psalm 18:31 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
Can the rock ( Stability itself /God) create itself and also destroy itself? Yes it can and does. Life is a cycle in which the different aspects are created and destroyed all the time and in that sense they appear to be unstable yet the cycle also remains stable in the sense of being repetitive.
Can the rock (stability) lift itself? The question is lift itself to what kind of heights? It is a physical lifting or a metaphorical lifting?
Can you lift yourself higher than you are in a physical sense? Is standing on your tip toes lifting yourself higher than you are? Is jumping a way to lift yourself higher than you originally are? What about mentally? Can you lift your own mentally to a higher plane than you currently think you can? Can you lift your own ego higher than you currently think you can? Anything is possible if you believe you can do it. You will never know how far you can lift yourself up till you try.
Some "beings" can lift themselves up from the "gutter" and some cannot. Some "beings" can lift themselves out of their own stupidity and others cannot.
Some "rocks" ( foundational concepts) have been lifted so high by humans in human esteem and regard that they cannot be lifted any higher in human perception.

A literal rock cannot lift itself any place. A metaphorical rock ( referring to a stable person) can lift themselves as high as they want to lift themselves in the sense of their own self esteem and moral standards.
Others also lift them up as high as they like or put them down as low as they like.

In the end human words are all subject to human perspective and how one interprets the words they read or hear. Nothing is impossible to for humans to imagine. The trick is to turn what we imagine into a reality. That takes creativity. The universe is filled with paradoxes. Understanding the paradoxes brings revelation of eternity and how life in general can actually be eternal while also being temporary at the very same time.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/2/2014 8:44:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 8:34:43 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 7:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

The answer is No if the "being" is separate from the rock. An all powerful being can lift anything.
The answer is Yes if the "being" is the rock. No rock can lift itself no matter how large or small it might be. It would need to rely on another force to lift it.


In answer to 2, does "anything" include something that is too big for the being to lift? Or is the question whether such a rock could be created in the first place? Also, I am not sure how the being could be the rock. Nor am I sure how the being would not be able to lift itself, being at the same time an all-powerful being and a rock.

The word "Anything" applies to anything that can be lifted in the first place. When you talk about a rock most people immediately think about physical rocks on planet Earth. Mrsatan however came up with a novel concept comparing the earth itself to a rock.
Mrsatan said "...................... Can an all-powerful being lift the Earth? No, because the Earth is rock so big that it doesn't rest on the ground, because it is the ground. There is nothing to lift it from."

What is interesting about mrsatans statement is the concept of the Earth being the rock which exists in space. Size is irrelevant when you consider that anything is space is weightless regardless of size. Can anything weightless be lifted? Of course it can. Is anything weightless too big to lift? of course not. It could be pushed in any direction in space by a force which has the power to move it. Does size make any difference? No it does not.

Then you also need to consider the word " lift" is relative and subjective to human perspective and also to the plane from which you wish to lift the object. If something is not resting on a plane, how can you lift it off the plane? Moving something from one location to another is not necessarily "lifting" it, is it?

The being "God" in the bible is referred to as "the rock". In that sense the rock is not a literal rock but a metaphorical rock which refers to stability.
Psalm 18:31 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
Can the rock ( Stability itself /God) create itself and also destroy itself? Yes it can and does. Life is a cycle in which the different aspects are created and destroyed all the time and in that sense they appear to be unstable yet the cycle also remains stable in the sense of being repetitive.
Can the rock (stability) lift itself? The question is lift itself to what kind of heights? It is a physical lifting or a metaphorical lifting?
Can you lift yourself higher than you are in a physical sense? Is standing on your tip toes lifting yourself higher than you are? Is jumping a way to lift yourself higher than you originally are? What about mentally? Can you lift your own mentally to a higher plane than you currently think you can? Can you lift your own ego higher than you currently think you can? Anything is possible if you believe you can do it. You will never know how far you can lift yourself up till you try.
Some "beings" can lift themselves up from the "gutter" and some cannot. Some "beings" can lift themselves out of their own stupidity and others cannot.
Some "rocks" ( foundational concepts) have been lifted so high by humans in human esteem and regard that they cannot be lifted any higher in human perception.

A literal rock cannot lift itself any place. A metaphorical rock ( referring to a stable person) can lift themselves as high as they want to lift themselves in the sense of their own self esteem and moral standards.
Others also lift them up as high as they like or put them down as low as they like.

In the end human words are all subject to human perspective and how one interprets the words they read or hear. Nothing is impossible to for humans to imagine. The trick is to turn what we imagine into a reality. That takes creativity. The universe is filled with paradoxes. Understanding the paradoxes brings revelation of eternity and how life in general can actually be eternal while also being temporary at the very same time.

Solid answer.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/2/2014 9:02:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 7:41:03 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Dwelling on the subject of omniscience or omnipotence is like trying to imagine eternity. It can't be done.

What makes you think it can't be done? What is so difficult about imagining eternity? It is just something that has no beginning or end. I can manage to imagine eternity. Why can't you?

And yet both religion and science speak of eternity as if it were a real possibility.

The fact that humans can speak of it as if were possible proves they can imagine it as being possible. The mind is a fascinating thing. We are capable of far more than we often give ourselves credit for.

Heck, physicists even speak of quantum-physics as being "counter-intuitive", because the mind can't grasp it. Does that mean that the quantum world doesn't really exist? Of course it doesn't. It is somehow tied into the human psyche to believe we are capable of grasping any concept if we study it enough, but that's not true.

Why isn't it true? Why don't you believe you can grasp a concept if you study it enough?

Using reason, I would imagine that words like omnipotence and omniscience came about during an age when a civilization's strength was often measured by the strength of its gods. It would be logical, then, to describe one's own God as all-everything, sort of like the games we play with our children when we say "I love you more than the whole world!" and then they say "I love you more than the whole universe", etc., etc .

Mine love me to infinity and beyond. ;-)
It means their love is unlimited.
Unlimited is easy to comprehend mathematically by always adding another one to the existing number. You can keep doing that for ever and never end the process. That is how easy it is to understand anything infinite as being eternal.
I can easily imagine space going on forever and having no boundaries. I find nothing difficult about imagining that. Do you?
The human mind is obviously capable of doing far more than just reasoning and using logic. It has a creative side to it which has nothing to do with reason or logic. That is how we end up with abstract art and abstract ideas, fiction and fantasies, and all kinds of "craziness" which defies logic and reason.

The problem is many get lost in their fictions and their fiction becomes their reality. Their invisible characters become real to them. They lose all sense of reality and logic instead of finding the balance between the logical areas of the mind and the creative areas of the mind. To have a balanced mind one need to use both sides of the brain together in harmony not just one side of it. Those who are one sided are unbalanced.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/2/2014 10:06:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

God created a rock within His invisible thoughts which doesn't weigh anything. The illusion we call a visible rock fools our senses to make us believe it's real.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/3/2014 11:50:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/2/2014 9:02:56 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 7:41:03 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/2/2014 5:39:02 PM, tabularasa wrote:
I do not presume to think that I am the only one who has posted this question on this board. I am sure that it has even been discussed this week. Nonetheless,

Can an all-powerful being create something more powerful than itself?

Alternatively:

Can an all-powerful being create a rock so big that the being cannot lift it?

Or:

Can an all-powerful being create a being bigger than itself?

What say you?

Dwelling on the subject of omniscience or omnipotence is like trying to imagine eternity. It can't be done.

What makes you think it can't be done? What is so difficult about imagining eternity? It is just something that has no beginning or end. I can manage to imagine eternity. Why can't you?

That's the definition of eternity, not eternity itself. When it comes to eternity, no matter how many years you start with and how many times you multiply them by the highest numbers you can imagine, you still have not reached even one-billionth of one percent of eternity. In fact the human mind can't even encompass a billionth part of it, for that would be an eternity in itself.

And yet both religion and science speak of eternity as if it were a real possibility.

The fact that humans can speak of it as if were possible proves they can imagine it as being possible. The mind is a fascinating thing. We are capable of far more than we often give ourselves credit for.

I don't know where you get that idea. You can speak of God, but you can't imagine him, even if he exists. No one can. The ability to form a mental image takes computing power, and the brain only has so much of it. You should look that up, seriously. Have you ever heard the phrase "Jack of all trades and master of none"? That comes from the fact that our minds can only accomplish so much. If you focus that on one thing you might become a master at it, but if you try to focus on too many things you will fail at all of them. Even Einstein's mind was limited this way.

Heck, physicists even speak of quantum-physics as being "counter-intuitive", because the mind can't grasp it. Does that mean that the quantum world doesn't really exist? Of course it doesn't. It is somehow tied into the human psyche to believe we are capable of grasping any concept if we study it enough, but that's not true.

Why isn't it true? Why don't you believe you can grasp a concept if you study it enough?

I just explained that. Your memory and mental computing powers are finite things, and finite things aren't capable of holding infinite things.

Using reason, I would imagine that words like omnipotence and omniscience came about during an age when a civilization's strength was often measured by the strength of its gods. It would be logical, then, to describe one's own God as all-everything, sort of like the games we play with our children when we say "I love you more than the whole world!" and then they say "I love you more than the whole universe", etc., etc .

Mine love me to infinity and beyond. ;-)
It means their love is unlimited.
Unlimited is easy to comprehend mathematically by always adding another one to the existing number. You can keep doing that for ever and never end the process. That is how easy it is to understand anything infinite as being eternal.

Sorry, but you are wrong about that. You can keep "adding ones" a trillion at a time for the next trillion generations and you haven't even put a scratch on eternity.

I can easily imagine space going on forever and having no boundaries. I find nothing difficult about imagining that. Do you.

As I said before, you can't do it, because no matter how far you stretch your mind there is always an eternity left to go.

The human mind is obviously capable of doing far more than just reasoning and using logic. It has a creative side to it which has nothing to do with reason or logic. That is how we end up with abstract art and abstract ideas, fiction and fantasies, and all kinds of "craziness" which defies logic and reason.

The problem is many get lost in their fictions and their fiction becomes their reality. Their invisible characters become real to them. They lose all sense of reality and logic instead of finding the balance between the logical areas of the mind and the creative areas of the mind. To have a balanced mind one need to use both sides of the brain together in harmony not just one side of it. Those who are one sided are unbalanced.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/4/2014 12:43:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:50:53 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/2/2014 9:02:56 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/2/2014 7:41:03 PM, Idealist wrote:

Dwelling on the subject of omniscience or omnipotence is like trying to imagine eternity. It can't be done.

What makes you think it can't be done? What is so difficult about imagining eternity? It is just something that has no beginning or end. I can manage to imagine eternity. Why can't you?

That's the definition of eternity, not eternity itself. When it comes to eternity, no matter how many years you start with and how many times you multiply them by the highest numbers you can imagine, you still have not reached even one-billionth of one percent of eternity. In fact the human mind can't even encompass a billionth part of it, for that would be an eternity in itself.

And yet both religion and science speak of eternity as if it were a real possibility.

The fact that humans can speak of it as if were possible proves they can imagine it as being possible. The mind is a fascinating thing. We are capable of far more than we often give ourselves credit for.

I don't know where you get that idea. You can speak of God, but you can't imagine him, even if he exists. No one can. The ability to form a mental image takes computing power, and the brain only has so much of it. You should look that up, seriously. Have you ever heard the phrase "Jack of all trades and master of none"? That comes from the fact that our minds can only accomplish so much. If you focus that on one thing you might become a master at it, but if you try to focus on too many things you will fail at all of them. Even Einstein's mind was limited this way.

Heck, physicists even speak of quantum-physics as being "counter-intuitive", because the mind can't grasp it. Does that mean that the quantum world doesn't really exist? Of course it doesn't. It is somehow tied into the human psyche to believe we are capable of grasping any concept if we study it enough, but that's not true.

Why isn't it true? Why don't you believe you can grasp a concept if you study it enough?

I just explained that. Your memory and mental computing powers are finite things, and finite things aren't capable of holding infinite things.

Using reason, I would imagine that words like omnipotence and omniscience came about during an age when a civilization's strength was often measured by the strength of its gods. It would be logical, then, to describe one's own God as all-everything, sort of like the games we play with our children when we say "I love you more than the whole world!" and then they say "I love you more than the whole universe", etc., etc .

Mine love me to infinity and beyond. ;-)
It means their love is unlimited.
Unlimited is easy to comprehend mathematically by always adding another one to the existing number. You can keep doing that for ever and never end the process. That is how easy it is to understand anything infinite as being eternal.

Sorry, but you are wrong about that. You can keep "adding ones" a trillion at a time for the next trillion generations and you haven't even put a scratch on eternity.

I can easily imagine space going on forever and having no boundaries. I find nothing difficult about imagining that. Do you.

As I said before, you can't do it, because no matter how far you stretch your mind there is always an eternity left to go.


Obviously you can't do it but I can.
You don't need to stretch your mind to understand it. All you need to do is understand the concept. It's not that hard. It's not like you need to count something finite and imagine that number. No counting is necessary to comprehend the concept.
I believe the human mind is capable of comprehending it even if you don't.