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Is prayer meaningless?

SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.
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12_13
Posts: 1,361
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12/3/2014 1:34:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

Not if he wants to allow people to make own free decisions.

But I think praying is more for the people than for God, unless it is thanking. I think by praying person allows God to work and it is therefore important, although God knows what person will do. I think it can be seen as signing contract. And many cases it is more for human than for God.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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12/3/2014 2:31:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

Assuming a god exists that meets this definition, prayer is meaningless if the goal is to change the will of such a god. I believe an argument could be made for the psychological benefits for the believer thinking they can change the will of such a god, though. I completely agree with 12_13 that prayer is primarily for humans, and I believe there would be no benefits for a omni god. Prayers will not give such a god new information.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/3/2014 4:35:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 1:34:46 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

Not if he wants to allow people to make own free decisions.

But I think praying is more for the people than for God, unless it is thanking. I think by praying person allows God to work and it is therefore important, although God knows what person will do. I think it can be seen as signing contract. And many cases it is more for human than for God.

Praying allows God to work?
Does he need your permission to do any work?
Won't he work unless you ask him to?

Do you also thank Mother Nature for all she does for you?
If not why not?
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/3/2014 4:38:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 2:31:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

Assuming a god exists that meets this definition, prayer is meaningless if the goal is to change the will of such a god. I believe an argument could be made for the psychological benefits for the believer thinking they can change the will of such a god, though. I completely agree with 12_13 that prayer is primarily for humans, and I believe there would be no benefits for a omni god. Prayers will not give such a god new information.

In what way does talking to imaginary characters benefit humans psychologically?
Would you recommend all unbelievers start talking to an invisible friend because it has some psychological benefits?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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12/3/2014 5:39:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 4:38:34 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/3/2014 2:31:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

Assuming a god exists that meets this definition, prayer is meaningless if the goal is to change the will of such a god. I believe an argument could be made for the psychological benefits for the believer thinking they can change the will of such a god, though. I completely agree with 12_13 that prayer is primarily for humans, and I believe there would be no benefits for a omni god. Prayers will not give such a god new information.

In what way does talking to imaginary characters benefit humans psychologically?
Would you recommend all unbelievers start talking to an invisible friend because it has some psychological benefits?

Placebo effect. No, I wouldn't, but everyone has their coping methods, believer's methods happen to include god.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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12/3/2014 5:59:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

I don't think prayer is meaningless. I think prayer serves as a legitimate conversation with God. However, I do believe prayer isn't as effective as religious people claim it is. It's definitely over-hyped.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/3/2014 7:34:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

There are times when I pray. Well sort of. Those moments when I scream OH MY GOD! Usually happens in bed for some reason.

Seriously though, prayer is pointless and your argument is valid. Better off doing something kind for someone or planting a tree. Greater rewards are reaped from those things.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
dee-em
Posts: 6,464
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12/3/2014 7:39:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:34:29 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

There are times when I pray. Well sort of. Those moments when I scream OH MY GOD! Usually happens in bed for some reason.

Lol. You know this going to set off LMGIG into paroxysms of outrage, don't you?

Seriously though, prayer is pointless and your argument is valid. Better off doing something kind for someone or planting a tree. Greater rewards are reaped from those things.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/3/2014 7:42:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 7:39:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/3/2014 7:34:29 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

There are times when I pray. Well sort of. Those moments when I scream OH MY GOD! Usually happens in bed for some reason.

Lol. You know this going to set off LMGIG into paroxysms of outrage, don't you?
Yes... it is my favorite entertainment. ;)

Seriously though, prayer is pointless and your argument is valid. Better off doing something kind for someone or planting a tree. Greater rewards are reaped from those things.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/3/2014 9:12:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

God makes this world more real like when He has some of His people pray. Some prayers appear to be answered by Him but most don't. Like you're sharing in this OP, God's will be done despite His people praying or not.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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12/3/2014 9:55:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 9:12:19 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

God makes this world more real like when He has some of His people pray. Some prayers appear to be answered by Him but most don't. Like you're sharing in this OP, God's will be done despite His people praying or not.

My view is that prayer can work. Butit a person must actively do other things too to get their prayers answered.

Prayer, by itself, is not very effective, I believe. More must be done.
PetersSmith
Posts: 5,829
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12/3/2014 10:00:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

The only way to properly pray is to sacrifice beings to the Gods, then you shall gain their favor.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/3/2014 10:28:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 9:55:15 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 12/3/2014 9:12:19 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind. This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.

God makes this world more real like when He has some of His people pray. Some prayers appear to be answered by Him but most don't. Like you're sharing in this OP, God's will be done despite His people praying or not.

My view is that prayer can work. Butit a person must actively do other things too to get their prayers answered.

Prayer, by itself, is not very effective, I believe. More must be done.


Acts 17
24: The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
25: nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.

Jeremiah 10
10: But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
11: Thus shall you say to them: "The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."
12: It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens.
13: When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightnings for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.
14: Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols; for his images are false, and there is no breath in them.
EtrnlVw
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12/4/2014 9:11:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
No, first of all we don't pray for God, we pray to God and for others.
We are vessels and God meant for these vessels to impact the lives of one another, what does not get done by you will not get done, although someone else may pick up the pieces. I could give you countless examples of times in my life when prayer was used to accomplish something, of course those examples will be rejected by atheists but hey, I'm just letting you know.

Praying to God is communication it is the life of your spirit and from what I've learned and experienced in my life praying for certain needs for others and praying for direction in your own life has many benefits and results.

James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

This "omnipotence" stuff really has people confused lol and I can see why, it's what happens when we focus on irrelevant words, it's just a smokescreen.
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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12/4/2014 9:44:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 11:07:52 AM, SNP1 wrote:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an omni-god exists (purely for this argument).

An omniscient god knows everything, and so cannot change its mind.

Let's say you know you are going to go to Paris tomorrow. Does that mean you cannot change your mind and go to Ecuador instead?

This is because an omniscient god knows everything, including the future. Changing your mind is due to new information being presented or uncertainty, both of which an omniscient god cannot have.

An omnipotent god's will will always be done. What an omnipotent god does not want to happen will not happen. This follows because an omnipotent god is all powerful, and would be able to make it's wants happen and prevent what it does not want.

Following that, we can see that prayer is irrational.

P1) An omnicient god cannot change its mind.
P2) An omnipotent god's will will always be done.
P3) What is not an omnipotent god's will will not be done.
C) Whether you pray for something or not, the outcome will always be the same.

So, prayer, if god is both omnipotent and omniscient, is meaningless. If it was already god's will, it will be done whether you pray or not. If it is not, then it won't happen whether you pray or not.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
bestreligion
Posts: 20
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12/4/2014 11:48:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Prayer not meaningless. Prayers has its own importance and beliefs. A true and dedicated pray always work..
religious communication
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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12/4/2014 2:39:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2014 4:35:09 PM, Skyangel wrote:
Does he need your permission to do any work?

I think he don"t want to do certain things without people first giving permission to act.

Do you also thank Mother Nature for all she does for you?
If not why not?

Because Mother Earth is not God for me and we don"t exists because of him.