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Ineffective Prayer

EtrnlVw
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12/4/2014 12:32:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Prayer is a huge part of Christian teachings, if you do not recognize this you have missed the message entirely.
I'm going to present some ideas of what is going on and why this topic is so greatly misunderstood.
Atheists, you may have been raised in a "christian" upbringing and maybe you have completely lost faith in any spiritual aspect and you may have even been turned off by the examples in your own house. Maybe you prayed once or twice or even many times and saw nothing and perceived it to be worthless but I want you to understand something, prayer and effective prayer is woven into your lifestyle, what your prayer produces is directly influenced by what you believe and how you live, God uses things in our life to stretch us, pull us in and draw us deeper, let me explain.

If God were to give and grant everything you ask the moment you asked you would never have any reason to stretch, your prayers and petitions will become shallow and worthless, you would have no reason to learn, no reason to further your relationship with God, no reason to expand yourself and your knowledge why? Because God would have granted all you asked without teaching you and growing you, He would be your accomplice in all your affairs but this is not how it works...

By God allowing you to reach and stretch He is expanding you and showing you things. What needs to be expanded? God wants to expand your knowledge, your love, your patience, your long suffering, your mind, thoughts, attitude, service, giving, selflessness, your spirit ect.

LET ME EXPLAIN! Yes, you already possess these attributes BUT, I said expand not possess, God wants to expand these things to the limit, this is what God does and He does these things by lessons and learning, that is why it is important to always move forward, to not give up and turn away, this only reveals our own belief.

God WANTED you to draw closer! God wanted to show you things through your prayers and your desires, He wanted you to draw deeper, to expand and grow by stretching yourself and learning to rely on Him, these things cannot expand if God spoils the child by giving the child all he asks for, when we draw closer to God what we desire and see as important CHANGES, our passion and focus becomes more like that of who we are seeking, the results are growth.

Now that I've explained some I'm going to show you through a few passages in scripture why prayer is hindered and why it doesn't always seem to work in your life.

James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 40
29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

James 4
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,135
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12/4/2014 1:07:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The positive results of prayer are statistically indistinguishable from positive results achieved without prayer. If anything, we have studies which show prayer can be detrimental to those who are aware they are being prayed for.

http://www.nytimes.com...
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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12/4/2014 1:20:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Prayer may be ineffective for the person being prayed for, but it could very well help the person doing the praying. In that sense, it is akin to meditation. The problem is that the prayerful person thinks he is being selfless when the evidence points to it being a self-centered act. Perhaps the illusion of being selfless is part of the benefit!
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Fly
Posts: 2,049
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12/4/2014 1:23:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I want to add:

In the movie "Shadowlands," there is a scene where CS Lewis admits that he prays not for whatever effect it might have on others but for the effect it has on him.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/4/2014 2:21:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 12:32:19 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Prayer is a huge part of Christian teachings, if you do not recognize this you have missed the message entirely.
I'm going to present some ideas of what is going on and why this topic is so greatly misunderstood.
Atheists, you may have been raised in a "christian" upbringing and maybe you have completely lost faith in any spiritual aspect and you may have even been turned off by the examples in your own house. Maybe you prayed once or twice or even many times and saw nothing and perceived it to be worthless but I want you to understand something, prayer and effective prayer is woven into your lifestyle, what your prayer produces is directly influenced by what you believe and how you live, God uses things in our life to stretch us, pull us in and draw us deeper, let me explain.

If God were to give and grant everything you ask the moment you asked you would never have any reason to stretch, your prayers and petitions will become shallow and worthless, you would have no reason to learn, no reason to further your relationship with God, no reason to expand yourself and your knowledge why? Because God would have granted all you asked without teaching you and growing you, He would be your accomplice in all your affairs but this is not how it works...

By God allowing you to reach and stretch He is expanding you and showing you things. What needs to be expanded? God wants to expand your knowledge, your love, your patience, your long suffering, your mind, thoughts, attitude, service, giving, selflessness, your spirit ect.

LET ME EXPLAIN! Yes, you already possess these attributes BUT, I said expand not possess, God wants to expand these things to the limit, this is what God does and He does these things by lessons and learning, that is why it is important to always move forward, to not give up and turn away, this only reveals our own belief.

God WANTED you to draw closer! God wanted to show you things through your prayers and your desires, He wanted you to draw deeper, to expand and grow by stretching yourself and learning to rely on Him, these things cannot expand if God spoils the child by giving the child all he asks for, when we draw closer to God what we desire and see as important CHANGES, our passion and focus becomes more like that of who we are seeking, the results are growth.

Now that I've explained some I'm going to show you through a few passages in scripture why prayer is hindered and why it doesn't always seem to work in your life.

James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 40
29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

James 4
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The act of prayer is a vain and selfish practice. Show me an individual who isn't praying for selfish reasons. Even when the prayer is to help another it is usually an act to make oneself feel comforted or to earn a few half baked brownie points with God.

Prayer in itself can be much like meditation. And in that I think there may be usefulness, however it is a self centered undertaking. But I suppose we're all a bit self centered by default. The human condition.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,322
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12/4/2014 4:00:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 2:21:42 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/4/2014 12:32:19 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Prayer is a huge part of Christian teachings, if you do not recognize this you have missed the message entirely.
I'm going to present some ideas of what is going on and why this topic is so greatly misunderstood.
Atheists, you may have been raised in a "christian" upbringing and maybe you have completely lost faith in any spiritual aspect and you may have even been turned off by the examples in your own house. Maybe you prayed once or twice or even many times and saw nothing and perceived it to be worthless but I want you to understand something, prayer and effective prayer is woven into your lifestyle, what your prayer produces is directly influenced by what you believe and how you live, God uses things in our life to stretch us, pull us in and draw us deeper, let me explain.

If God were to give and grant everything you ask the moment you asked you would never have any reason to stretch, your prayers and petitions will become shallow and worthless, you would have no reason to learn, no reason to further your relationship with God, no reason to expand yourself and your knowledge why? Because God would have granted all you asked without teaching you and growing you, He would be your accomplice in all your affairs but this is not how it works...

By God allowing you to reach and stretch He is expanding you and showing you things. What needs to be expanded? God wants to expand your knowledge, your love, your patience, your long suffering, your mind, thoughts, attitude, service, giving, selflessness, your spirit ect.

LET ME EXPLAIN! Yes, you already possess these attributes BUT, I said expand not possess, God wants to expand these things to the limit, this is what God does and He does these things by lessons and learning, that is why it is important to always move forward, to not give up and turn away, this only reveals our own belief.

God WANTED you to draw closer! God wanted to show you things through your prayers and your desires, He wanted you to draw deeper, to expand and grow by stretching yourself and learning to rely on Him, these things cannot expand if God spoils the child by giving the child all he asks for, when we draw closer to God what we desire and see as important CHANGES, our passion and focus becomes more like that of who we are seeking, the results are growth.

Now that I've explained some I'm going to show you through a few passages in scripture why prayer is hindered and why it doesn't always seem to work in your life.

James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 40
29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

James 4
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The act of prayer is a vain and selfish practice. Show me an individual who isn't praying for selfish reasons. Even when the prayer is to help another it is usually an act to make oneself feel comforted or to earn a few half baked brownie points with God.

And how did you come to that conclusion? But thanks for the assertion though...

Prayer in itself can be much like meditation. And in that I think there may be usefulness, however it is a self centered undertaking. But I suppose we're all a bit self centered by default. The human condition.
EtrnlVw
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12/4/2014 4:01:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 1:07:50 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
The positive results of prayer are statistically indistinguishable from positive results achieved without prayer. If anything, we have studies which show prayer can be detrimental to those who are aware they are being prayed for.

http://www.nytimes.com...

And how would you know personally?
EtrnlVw
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12/4/2014 4:02:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 1:20:24 PM, Fly wrote:
Prayer may be ineffective for the person being prayed for, but it could very well help the person doing the praying. In that sense, it is akin to meditation. The problem is that the prayerful person thinks he is being selfless when the evidence points to it being a self-centered act. Perhaps the illusion of being selfless is part of the benefit!

Then perhaps you can show me how it is "self-centered"?
EtrnlVw
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12/4/2014 4:11:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wow, one talks of being selfless and the responses all accuse of being selfish lol, can we get further from the same page? I don't even know why I try, you people are unbelievable.
EtrnlVw
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12/4/2014 4:30:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does it ever cross your minds how backwards you are?? How could you read anything I write and come to the conclusion that I'm selfish? It only proves to me that you are completely blinded, if you knew the heart that I have for you, you would be ashamed, there is no "self" that causes me to embrace you and care.
Fly
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12/4/2014 4:30:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 4:02:59 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/4/2014 1:20:24 PM, Fly wrote:
Prayer may be ineffective for the person being prayed for, but it could very well help the person doing the praying. In that sense, it is akin to meditation. The problem is that the prayerful person thinks he is being selfless when the evidence points to it being a self-centered act. Perhaps the illusion of being selfless is part of the benefit!

Then perhaps you can show me how it is "self-centered"?

I thought I already did-- right there in what you quoted-- prayer allows a person to feel as if they are doing something positive for others. Whether it actually helps others is a secondary consideration. It may very well help the emotional state of the person praying, as I said.

Also, there was a study published in the journal "The Lancet" saying that prayer not only didn't help hospital patients, it may have even lessened their chances of recovery if they were aware of being prayed for. That is what I was referencing when I said "the evidence" in my first post, by the way.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
SamStevens
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12/4/2014 4:37:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 1:20:24 PM, Fly wrote:
Prayer may be ineffective for the person being prayed for, but it could very well help the person doing the praying. In that sense, it is akin to meditation. The problem is that the prayerful person thinks he is being selfless when the evidence points to it being a self-centered act. Perhaps the illusion of being selfless is part of the benefit!

So if what you prayed for happened, god answered the prayer. For example, you lost your car keys. You pray that god will enable you to find them. You find them. Therefore, god answered your prayer.

Is that a correct understanding?
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Fly
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12/4/2014 4:37:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 4:30:08 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Does it ever cross your minds how backwards you are?? How could you read anything I write and come to the conclusion that I'm selfish? It only proves to me that you are completely blinded, if you knew the heart that I have for you, you would be ashamed, there is no "self" that causes me to embrace you and care.

Nothing here regarding your perceived lack of selfishness contradicts what I (or jodybirdy) have written in my posts. Do you see how that is so?

Some genuine advice-- if you want admiration for holding certain beliefs, you should stick with sites that cater solely to those beliefs.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
SamStevens
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12/4/2014 4:46:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 4:37:25 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/4/2014 1:20:24 PM, Fly wrote:
Prayer may be ineffective for the person being prayed for, but it could very well help the person doing the praying. In that sense, it is akin to meditation. The problem is that the prayerful person thinks he is being selfless when the evidence points to it being a self-centered act. Perhaps the illusion of being selfless is part of the benefit!

So if what you prayed for happened, god answered the prayer. For example, you lost your car keys. You pray that god will enable you to find them. You find them. Therefore, god answered your prayer.

Is that a correct understanding?

"So what if you prayed for something to happen, ...."

Fixed.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
SamStevens
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12/4/2014 4:47:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 1:20:24 PM, Fly wrote:
Prayer may be ineffective for the person being prayed for, but it could very well help the person doing the praying. In that sense, it is akin to meditation. The problem is that the prayerful person thinks he is being selfless when the evidence points to it being a self-centered act. Perhaps the illusion of being selfless is part of the benefit!

In my previous post, I replied to the wrong person. Sorry.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,135
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12/4/2014 5:03:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 4:01:31 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/4/2014 1:07:50 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
The positive results of prayer are statistically indistinguishable from positive results achieved without prayer. If anything, we have studies which show prayer can be detrimental to those who are aware they are being prayed for.

http://www.nytimes.com...

And how would you know personally?

I don't need to. The studies illustrates objectively the effectiveness of prayer. Besides, I doubt you would give my personal opinion any more credence than I give your unsubstantiated personal opinion.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
bulproof
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12/4/2014 7:18:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 4:30:08 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Does it ever cross your minds how backwards you are?? How could you read anything I write and come to the conclusion that I'm selfish? It only proves to me that you are completely blinded, if you knew the heart that I have for you, you would be ashamed, there is no "self" that causes me to embrace you and care.

Is it your desire to live forever in heaven?
jodybirdy
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12/4/2014 8:48:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2014 4:00:09 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/4/2014 2:21:42 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/4/2014 12:32:19 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Prayer is a huge part of Christian teachings, if you do not recognize this you have missed the message entirely.
I'm going to present some ideas of what is going on and why this topic is so greatly misunderstood.
Atheists, you may have been raised in a "christian" upbringing and maybe you have completely lost faith in any spiritual aspect and you may have even been turned off by the examples in your own house. Maybe you prayed once or twice or even many times and saw nothing and perceived it to be worthless but I want you to understand something, prayer and effective prayer is woven into your lifestyle, what your prayer produces is directly influenced by what you believe and how you live, God uses things in our life to stretch us, pull us in and draw us deeper, let me explain.

If God were to give and grant everything you ask the moment you asked you would never have any reason to stretch, your prayers and petitions will become shallow and worthless, you would have no reason to learn, no reason to further your relationship with God, no reason to expand yourself and your knowledge why? Because God would have granted all you asked without teaching you and growing you, He would be your accomplice in all your affairs but this is not how it works...

By God allowing you to reach and stretch He is expanding you and showing you things. What needs to be expanded? God wants to expand your knowledge, your love, your patience, your long suffering, your mind, thoughts, attitude, service, giving, selflessness, your spirit ect.

LET ME EXPLAIN! Yes, you already possess these attributes BUT, I said expand not possess, God wants to expand these things to the limit, this is what God does and He does these things by lessons and learning, that is why it is important to always move forward, to not give up and turn away, this only reveals our own belief.

God WANTED you to draw closer! God wanted to show you things through your prayers and your desires, He wanted you to draw deeper, to expand and grow by stretching yourself and learning to rely on Him, these things cannot expand if God spoils the child by giving the child all he asks for, when we draw closer to God what we desire and see as important CHANGES, our passion and focus becomes more like that of who we are seeking, the results are growth.

Now that I've explained some I'm going to show you through a few passages in scripture why prayer is hindered and why it doesn't always seem to work in your life.

James 1
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Isaiah 40
29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.

30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:

31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Matthew 17
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?

20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

James 4
2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


James 5
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

The act of prayer is a vain and selfish practice. Show me an individual who isn't praying for selfish reasons. Even when the prayer is to help another it is usually an act to make oneself feel comforted or to earn a few half baked brownie points with God.

And how did you come to that conclusion? But thanks for the assertion though...

Prayer in itself can be much like meditation. And in that I think there may be usefulness, however it is a self centered undertaking. But I suppose we're all a bit self centered by default. The human condition.

I didn't mean to offend. I just think action is more important than prayer.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."