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Challenge to theists

benko12345678
Posts: 30
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12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
mortsdor
Posts: 1,181
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12/6/2014 9:12:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not a theist but

At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
I don't get what role saying he's self-preservationist plays in the argument... but I'd imagine people might say it's a mischaracterization.

2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
sure
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
I would think the majority of theists would object to this premise... Many would suggest that Material reality doesn't explain things that happen in the universe, like the fact that they feel things.

They might even allow for it as far as it goes, saying that what's within the Universe is properly termed material... But I think they would question the nature of material reality broadly.. with many Suggesting it's a kind of thought-construct in the mind of god.

4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.

Physical reality can be conceived of as a thought-construct in the mind of god...

so, it's really thought stuff... Mind stuff... created by a mind.

5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
ok
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
it's not relevant anymore given the above, but I don't think this can stand on it's own.

7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
it's not relevant, given the above, but
perhaps you might be able to claim that something that is material must be POTENTIALLY evident.. but I don't see how this statement really stands.

8. God is not evident.
only to Those who he's not Revealed himself to!

9. Therefore god does not exist.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/6/2014 9:53:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

Your argument falls apart at #4. In order to assert that that which created the material universe must be material, you need an example of that which created the material universe so you can test it and determine if being material is necessary.

If you had that then we would not be having this debate.
benko12345678
Posts: 30
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12/6/2014 10:06:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 9:53:23 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

Your argument falls apart at #4. In order to assert that that which created the material universe must be material, you need an example of that which created the material universe so you can test it and determine if being material is necessary.

If you had that then we would not be having this debate.

It's basic dialectical materialism. Show me an example where something immaterial produced something material...
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/6/2014 10:09:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 10:06:31 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 9:53:23 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

Your argument falls apart at #4. In order to assert that that which created the material universe must be material, you need an example of that which created the material universe so you can test it and determine if being material is necessary.

If you had that then we would not be having this debate.

It's basic dialectical materialism. Show me an example where something immaterial produced something material...

I don't have to show you anything. You made the argument, you have he burden of proving it.

Your argument fails because it relies on the notion that that which holds true within this universe, must also apply outside this universe. You have no grounds for making that assumption.
zoinks
Posts: 1,988
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12/6/2014 2:49:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 10:09:43 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 10:06:31 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 9:53:23 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

Your argument falls apart at #4. In order to assert that that which created the material universe must be material, you need an example of that which created the material universe so you can test it and determine if being material is necessary.

If you had that then we would not be having this debate.

It's basic dialectical materialism. Show me an example where something immaterial produced something material...

I don't have to show you anything. You made the argument, you have he burden of proving it.

Your argument fails because it relies on the notion that that which holds true within this universe, must also apply outside this universe. You have no grounds for making that assumption.

I pride myself on only looking at things from the perspective of using logical reasoning to lead to the truth.

I've got to agree with the idea that the argument fails at #4 because you have no grounds for making the assumption that what holds true within the universe must also hold true outside the universe.

The fact is we have no idea what (if anything) exists outside the universe; there is therefore no basis for assuming it simply "must" be just like what exists in the universe.
That1User
Posts: 1,064
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12/6/2014 2:59:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
According to Christian doctrine, God exists outside of space and time, therefore God exists in His own plane of existance, outside of the universe. Thus negating premise #4.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
R13; Marcus Aurelius
"When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." -Marcus Aurelius
"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire
"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do. "-Voltaire
benko12345678
Posts: 30
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12/6/2014 3:00:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 2:59:24 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
According to Christian doctrine, God exists outside of space and time, therefore God exists in His own plane of existance, outside of the universe. Thus negating premise #4.

Theistic dogma is irrelevant. We must consider basic logic here.
That1User
Posts: 1,064
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12/6/2014 3:03:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 3:00:09 PM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 2:59:24 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
According to Christian doctrine, God exists outside of space and time, therefore God exists in His own plane of existance, outside of the universe. Thus negating premise #4.

Theistic dogma is irrelevant. We must consider basic logic here.

How is theistic dogma irrelevant? Theistic dogma is the primary source of general theism, therefore it is not irrevlant.
Using basic logic, if God is outside of space and time, then the rules of the universe do not apply to God, thus negating premise #4.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
R13; Marcus Aurelius
"When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." -Marcus Aurelius
"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire
"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do. "-Voltaire
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/6/2014 3:14:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 3:00:09 PM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 2:59:24 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
According to Christian doctrine, God exists outside of space and time, therefore God exists in His own plane of existance, outside of the universe. Thus negating premise #4.

Theistic dogma is irrelevant. We must consider basic logic here.

You can't present an argument concluding theistic dogma is false, then claim theistic dogma is irrelevant to the discussion.
benko12345678
Posts: 30
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12/6/2014 3:16:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 3:14:00 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 3:00:09 PM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 2:59:24 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
According to Christian doctrine, God exists outside of space and time, therefore God exists in His own plane of existance, outside of the universe. Thus negating premise #4.

Theistic dogma is irrelevant. We must consider basic logic here.

You can't present an argument concluding theistic dogma is false, then claim theistic dogma is irrelevant to the discussion.

Never did I say anything of the sort. What I meant was, it's the moving the goal post fallacy...
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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12/6/2014 4:01:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

You have a logical error.

3 and 4

If God created the universe, he is not necessarily bound by the universe and its laws.

If I initiate an explosion and walk away from it, I am not bound by the parameters of the explosion am I?

Suppositions have to be true and logical in order for a proof to be valid. And as much of yours is speculative and utterly without support ... why don't we just call it religion? Or anti-religion?
neutral
Posts: 4,478
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12/6/2014 4:10:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 10:06:31 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 9:53:23 AM, Double_R wrote:


It's basic dialectical materialism. Show me an example where something immaterial produced something material...

You may want to actually familiarize yourself with the dialectic.

That would be - thesis - which we could assume your guess is - followed by antithesis - which is no where in your argumentation - and then ... synthesis.

Those who offer a thesis under the guise that its just correct are clearly NOT using the dialectic.

Additionally, in terms of history, you aren't even on the same page ...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

As for the example - explosions. A mass of explosives like C4 is ignited and it forms a violent burst of energy. Seriously, aside from over pressure, its the metal casing and shrapnel that make grenades deadly.

Your car's engine, liquid gas (material) goes through your fuel lines and ignites into energy that drives the system of the engine and car. It production is ... motion - not a material thing at all.

Seriously, do you guys even attempt to punch holes in your arguments ... ahem ... by using the dialectic? Or do you just assume your thoughts or divine?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/6/2014 4:13:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 10:06:31 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 9:53:23 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

Your argument falls apart at #4. In order to assert that that which created the material universe must be material, you need an example of that which created the material universe so you can test it and determine if being material is necessary.

If you had that then we would not be having this debate.

It's basic dialectical materialism. Show me an example where something immaterial produced something material...

Virtual Particles
That1User
Posts: 1,064
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12/6/2014 4:14:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 4:01:08 PM, neutral wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

You have a logical error.

3 and 4

If God created the universe, he is not necessarily bound by the universe and its laws.

If I initiate an explosion and walk away from it, I am not bound by the parameters of the explosion am I?

Suppositions have to be true and logical in order for a proof to be valid. And as much of yours is speculative and utterly without support ... why don't we just call it religion? Or anti-religion?

Exactly. A creator does not neccessarily have to be bound by its creation.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
R13; Marcus Aurelius
"When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." -Marcus Aurelius
"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire
"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do. "-Voltaire
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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12/6/2014 4:20:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 3:16:10 PM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 3:14:00 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 12/6/2014 3:00:09 PM, benko12345678 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 2:59:24 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
According to Christian doctrine, God exists outside of space and time, therefore God exists in His own plane of existance, outside of the universe. Thus negating premise #4.

Theistic dogma is irrelevant. We must consider basic logic here.

You can't present an argument concluding theistic dogma is false, then claim theistic dogma is irrelevant to the discussion.

Never did I say anything of the sort. What I meant was, it's the moving the goal post fallacy...

He wasn't moving the goal posts. Presenting an argument that God does not exist is kind pointless if you are not defining God in the way that everyone else does, and if you are defining God as such then the previous point needs to be dealt with.
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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12/6/2014 7:44:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.

Fantastic refutation. Well done.

Tell us, how do you identify a communist at birth? Are they red? LMAO.
IEnglishman
Posts: 148
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12/6/2014 7:47:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 7:44:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.

Fantastic refutation. Well done.

I never claimed to be refuting anything, you inbred liberal bigot.

Tell us, how do you identify a communist at birth? Are they red? LMAO.

Well anyone who fits the profile of a developmentally impaired person, preferably, that would of course eliminate Communists very quickly.
Bulproof admits he's a troll http://www.debate.org... (see post 16). Do not feed.
That1User
Posts: 1,064
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12/6/2014 7:54:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 7:47:27 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:44:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.

Fantastic refutation. Well done.

I never claimed to be refuting anything, you inbred liberal bigot.

Tell us, how do you identify a communist at birth? Are they red? LMAO.

Well anyone who fits the profile of a developmentally impaired person, preferably, that would of course eliminate Communists very quickly.

First you wish that all Communists are shot at birth and then you insult someone else by calling them an inbred liberal bigot? Wow...
First off no one is born with a Communist ideology, secondly what evidence do you have that dee-em is 1) inbred. 2) liberal. 3) a bigot. 1)There is no evidence that de-eem is inbred, 2) being a liberal is not neccessarily a bad thing 3) de-eem is not being intolerant to other people's opinions. If anything you are being intolerant of benko's opinion, saying how all communists should be shot at birth. Shooting babies is morally wrong.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
R13; Marcus Aurelius
"When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." -Marcus Aurelius
"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire
"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do. "-Voltaire
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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12/6/2014 8:01:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 7:47:27 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:44:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.

Fantastic refutation. Well done.

I never claimed to be refuting anything, you inbred liberal bigot.

Tell us, how do you identify a communist at birth? Are they red? LMAO.

Well anyone who fits the profile of a developmentally impaired person, preferably, that would of course eliminate Communists very quickly.

Wow. I didn't fully appreciate that people like you exist. I'll let you get on with planning your next attack on whoever offends you, shall I?
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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12/6/2014 8:07:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 7:54:26 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:47:27 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:44:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.

Fantastic refutation. Well done.

I never claimed to be refuting anything, you inbred liberal bigot.

Tell us, how do you identify a communist at birth? Are they red? LMAO.

Well anyone who fits the profile of a developmentally impaired person, preferably, that would of course eliminate Communists very quickly.

First you wish that all Communists are shot at birth and then you insult someone else by calling them an inbred liberal bigot? Wow...
First off no one is born with a Communist ideology, secondly what evidence do you have that dee-em is 1) inbred. 2) liberal. 3) a bigot. 1)There is no evidence that de-eem is inbred, 2) being a liberal is not neccessarily a bad thing 3) de-eem is not being intolerant to other people's opinions. If anything you are being intolerant of benko's opinion, saying how all communists should be shot at birth. Shooting babies is morally wrong.

Thanks for the support with this completely unprovoked outpouring of abuse. You have to wonder about some people. I'm going to treat him as a troll and just ignore him.
That1User
Posts: 1,064
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12/6/2014 8:12:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:07:12 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:54:26 PM, That1User wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:47:27 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:44:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 7:36:45 PM, IEnglishman wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

I wish all commies were shot in the head at birth.

Fantastic refutation. Well done.

I never claimed to be refuting anything, you inbred liberal bigot.

Tell us, how do you identify a communist at birth? Are they red? LMAO.

Well anyone who fits the profile of a developmentally impaired person, preferably, that would of course eliminate Communists very quickly.

First you wish that all Communists are shot at birth and then you insult someone else by calling them an inbred liberal bigot? Wow...
First off no one is born with a Communist ideology, secondly what evidence do you have that dee-em is 1) inbred. 2) liberal. 3) a bigot. 1)There is no evidence that de-eem is inbred, 2) being a liberal is not neccessarily a bad thing 3) de-eem is not being intolerant to other people's opinions. If anything you are being intolerant of benko's opinion, saying how all communists should be shot at birth. Shooting babies is morally wrong.

Thanks for the support with this completely unprovoked outpouring of abuse. You have to wonder about some people. I'm going to treat him as a troll and just ignore him

You're welcome. Agreed, it is best to ignore him for now. If he continues to harass people, he should get reported.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
R13; Marcus Aurelius
"When you arise in the morning, think of what a precious privilege it is to be alive - to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love." -Marcus Aurelius
"Man is free at the moment he wishes to be." -Voltaire
"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do. "-Voltaire
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/6/2014 10:11:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

You sound just like a Christian who needs to lie to get other's to believe he has the Truth.
jh1234lnew
Posts: 225
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12/7/2014 12:25:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.

I made a VB.NET program therefore I am written in Visual Basic.

5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/7/2014 1:43:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

1. Self preservationist? What role does this play in your argument?
2. This is correct.
3. You have not demonstrated that all natural laws and concepts are material.
4. I do not disagree that God is material, but God and the universe are both material under a broader definition of material. You will need to refine your argument by defining material. Your argument that everything is a predicate or subset of God's existence is good.
5. You are assuming a definition of material. A refined definition will be required. It is not clear that "material" is exclusive of "omnipotent".
6. You must define omnipotent and eternally existent, and logically demonstrate how these ideas are logically related.
7. The connection between -eternally existent and +material is not clearly established. The connection between these two words and "evident" is even foggier. Define them. Demonstrate their relation.
8. This is true under some definitions of evident. I wouldn't know if it is true under your definition of evident.
9. Perhaps this is a logical outcome if you clarify your argument.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/7/2014 7:10:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/7/2014 1:43:20 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:51:39 AM, benko12345678 wrote:
1. If god exists, he is self-preservationist and eternally existent.
2. The theist assumption is that god created the universe.
3. The universe is material, as are all natural laws and concepts as they derive from material existence.
4. If god created the universe, he is material as the basic reflection of dialectics is the interdependence of the outcome on the circumstances and vice versa.
5. God cannot be material and omnipotent as matter is limited.
6. If god is not omnipotent he is not eternally existent.
7. If god is not eternally existent and he is material he must be evident.
8. God is not evident.
9. Therefore god does not exist.

1. Self preservationist? What role does this play in your argument?
2. This is correct.
3. You have not demonstrated that all natural laws and concepts are material.
4. I do not disagree that God is material, but God and the universe are both material under a broader definition of material. You will need to refine your argument by defining material. Your argument that everything is a predicate or subset of God's existence is good.
5. You are assuming a definition of material. A refined definition will be required. It is not clear that "material" is exclusive of "omnipotent".
6. You must define omnipotent and eternally existent, and logically demonstrate how these ideas are logically related.
7. The connection between -eternally existent and +material is not clearly established. The connection between these two words and "evident" is even foggier. Define them. Demonstrate their relation.
8. This is true under some definitions of evident. I wouldn't know if it is true under your definition of evident.
9. Perhaps this is a logical outcome if you clarify your argument.

As no clarification is forthcoming, I must insert my dagger.

Material: having the same essence as the stuff of the universe as we know it (matter and energy, interacting through the principles of mechanics). The law of conservation of mass and energy states that mass and energy are eternal. (ask me to explain this, and I will...if you can't figure out on your own). Material things in some forms may be observed if they are visible to the senses through direct or indirect observation. Some material things are not observable, at least in some sense (eg, the mechanism of gravity, dark matter, dark energy, the universe beyond what our telescopes can see). However, some things that are not directly observable are evident, such as the things described in the parenthetical. Some other material things are evident because the laws of physics may be used to make predictions (such as Andromeda and Milky Way will collide) or retrodictions (such as Big Bang) using logic to infer unobservable reality. Such things are also evident.

Eternally existent: remaining in some form for eternity; cannot be destroyed; perhaps always existed.

Omnipotent: can do all things that are mathematically and logically possible. Cannot do impossible things (to do something impossible is a contradiction).

Evident: something seems true based upon direct observation, indirect observation, or through application of the logic to the laws of physics, resulting in predictions and retrodictions.

I accept points 1-4. Point 5 posits that two terms are mutually exclusive. These two terms are not actually mutually exclusive. Small scale matter and physical systems are limited to a great extent if you draw an arbitrary boundary around some finite physical system. The total wave function of everything that exists (God, and the set of universes) would not be physically limited accept by mathematical and logical impossibility. An omnipotent being could only do things which are mathematically and logically possible, so an omnipotent being can be both material and limited and omnipotent, according to my definitions.
Even if god is not omnipotent, he can still be both material and eternally existent according to the law of conservation of mass and energy. Thus, 6. and 7. are refuted as illogical.
Not all material things are evident, but God is evident through application of logic to the laws of physics. A retrodiction is possible because of the laws of classical mechanics and causation.

God is material, omnipotent, eternally existing, limited, and evident. Every logical inference in your argument is wrong, based probably upon incorrect definitions. (But who would know what your definitions are?)
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.