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Keep Calm and Embrace Nihilism...

Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I would encourage my fellow atheists and even theists to ditch preconceived notions of "meaning" and "purpose" and "existence", and really strip their philosophies down to their bare bones.

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

To my fellow theists, the time has come to realise that even accepting your God's existence, nihilism is still inevitable. Only the notion of God makes self-delusion of purpose and meaning even greater. Raping babies is still not objectively wrong, despite whatever your God says to the contrary, even if he exists, that is all there is to it. He may punish you indirectly if you do, but that only demonstrates that you are a slave of God, none that you are still acting in your selfish self-interests. Even altruism is selfish since you seek to avoid punishment from God, etc. God is just another tool to affect man's selfish nature.

To quote Dawkins on one of the very few things I agree with him on:

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk...
dtaylor971
Posts: 1,907
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12/6/2014 9:00:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies...

Yeah, but...
"I don't know why gays want to marry, I have spent the last 25 years wishing I wasn't allowed to." -Sadolite
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/6/2014 9:04:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:
I would encourage my fellow atheists and even theists to ditch preconceived notions of "meaning" and "purpose" and "existence", and really strip their philosophies down to their bare bones.

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

To my fellow theists, the time has come to realise that even accepting your God's existence, nihilism is still inevitable. Only the notion of God makes self-delusion of purpose and meaning even greater. Raping babies is still not objectively wrong, despite whatever your God says to the contrary, even if he exists, that is all there is to it. He may punish you indirectly if you do, but that only demonstrates that you are a slave of God, none that you are still acting in your selfish self-interests. Even altruism is selfish since you seek to avoid punishment from God, etc. God is just another tool to affect man's selfish nature.

To quote Dawkins on one of the very few things I agree with him on:

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk...

I have found it disconcerting that a God described as being Love and of Life, has such a small world and no other life seen in the universe or neighboring planets.

I would think such a God would have life all over.

I must admit the attitude is God is unwilling. But then again when have humans ever been great discerning the will of God.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/6/2014 9:11:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 9:04:31 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:
I would encourage my fellow atheists and even theists to ditch preconceived notions of "meaning" and "purpose" and "existence", and really strip their philosophies down to their bare bones.

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

To my fellow theists, the time has come to realise that even accepting your God's existence, nihilism is still inevitable. Only the notion of God makes self-delusion of purpose and meaning even greater. Raping babies is still not objectively wrong, despite whatever your God says to the contrary, even if he exists, that is all there is to it. He may punish you indirectly if you do, but that only demonstrates that you are a slave of God, none that you are still acting in your selfish self-interests. Even altruism is selfish since you seek to avoid punishment from God, etc. God is just another tool to affect man's selfish nature.

To quote Dawkins on one of the very few things I agree with him on:

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk...

I have found it disconcerting that a God described as being Love and of Life, has such a small world and no other life seen in the universe or neighboring planets.

I would think such a God would have life all over.

I must admit the attitude is God is unwilling. But then again when have humans ever been great discerning the will of God.

I don't see how God is relevant to these discussions. Even if God made a flourishing universe, with life every square inch, it would still be irrelevant to whether or not one should embrace nihilism. It would just be a prettier abyss to embrace.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/6/2014 9:13:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 9:00:45 PM, dtaylor971 wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies...

Yeah, but...

Lol.
dee-em
Posts: 6,444
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12/6/2014 9:42:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:
I would encourage my fellow atheists and even theists to ditch preconceived notions of "meaning" and "purpose" and "existence", and really strip their philosophies down to their bare bones.

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

To my fellow theists, the time has come to realise that even accepting your God's existence, nihilism is still inevitable. Only the notion of God makes self-delusion of purpose and meaning even greater. Raping babies is still not objectively wrong, despite whatever your God says to the contrary, even if he exists, that is all there is to it. He may punish you indirectly if you do, but that only demonstrates that you are a slave of God, none that you are still acting in your selfish self-interests. Even altruism is selfish since you seek to avoid punishment from God, etc. God is just another tool to affect man's selfish nature.

To quote Dawkins on one of the very few things I agree with him on:

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk...

Nice sermon pastor Envisage. I'm looking forward to next Sunday.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/6/2014 9:43:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 9:42:00 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:
I would encourage my fellow atheists and even theists to ditch preconceived notions of "meaning" and "purpose" and "existence", and really strip their philosophies down to their bare bones.

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

To my fellow theists, the time has come to realise that even accepting your God's existence, nihilism is still inevitable. Only the notion of God makes self-delusion of purpose and meaning even greater. Raping babies is still not objectively wrong, despite whatever your God says to the contrary, even if he exists, that is all there is to it. He may punish you indirectly if you do, but that only demonstrates that you are a slave of God, none that you are still acting in your selfish self-interests. Even altruism is selfish since you seek to avoid punishment from God, etc. God is just another tool to affect man's selfish nature.

To quote Dawkins on one of the very few things I agree with him on:

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk...

Nice sermon pastor Envisage. I'm looking forward to next Sunday.

Thank You!

I seriously did look up nihilist churches and was rather disappointed. So I intend to make greater efforts of preaching the meaninglessness of our lives on the forums, the message of oblivion must be spread. The self-delusion must end, because I hate people embracing absurdity.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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12/6/2014 10:01:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

There's a reason successful societies view certain actions immoral (e.g. murdering valued members of society, raping babies, stealing money, and so on). To allow those actions would cause a less successful society, as order would break apart. Order is necessary for a society. Without it, it will collapse.

Also, from a nihilistic point of view, wouldn't it make sense that altruism is a beneficial evolutionary adaption? It would certainly help our species as a whole to advance, though it may "harm" the individual.

For example, prairie dogs will exhibit forms altruism (although if they are true forms of altruism, that is debatable) where one member of the group will call attention to a predator that is nearing the group. This not only alerts the group but draws attention to that prairie dog that is barking, which puts it's life in danger. In doing so, it ensures the survival of the group at its own risk.

Another kind of useful altruism would be biological altruism, where one individual puts its life at risk to save its kin, so that later the kin could survive and pass down its genes. As both are relatives, they would have had similar genes and this is consequently an evolutionary benefit. This is similar to the prairie dog example, but more general.
Envisage
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12/6/2014 10:11:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 10:01:21 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

There's a reason successful societies view certain actions immoral (e.g. murdering valued members of society, raping babies, stealing money, and so on). To allow those actions would cause a less successful society, as order would break apart. Order is necessary for a society. Without it, it will collapse.

This just begs the question that "viewing it as immoral is the only way for a successful society to form".

I would argue that just by establishing of these actions to simply be against the personal preferences of those in society is enough to establish order. Although I do not deny that the delusion of 'viewing said actions as immoral' had, and still continues to have utility in society today.

It may well be true that the self-delusion is the best way to maintain a society which best fulfils our-self interests. I prefer to operate on a basis which is in accordance with the way the world objectively is, however, even if the road is more difficult to take.

Also, from a nihilistic point of view, wouldn't it make sense that altruism is a beneficial evolutionary adaption?

Sure, it would make sense to me yes. That altruistic tendencies would be advantageous for the species in general.

It would certainly help our species as a whole to advance, though it may "harm" the individual.

Agreed. It's so far irrelevant though.

For example, prairie dogs will exhibit forms altruism (although if they are true forms of altruism, that is debatable) where one member of the group will call attention to a predator that is nearing the group. This not only alerts the group but draws attention to that prairie dog that is barking, which puts it's life in danger. In doing so, it ensures the survival of the group at its own risk.

Another kind of useful altruism would be biological altruism, where one individual puts its life at risk to save its kin, so that later the kin could survive and pass down its genes. As both are relatives, they would have had similar genes and this is consequently an evolutionary benefit. This is similar to the prairie dog example, but more general.

Sure, but this is irrelevant to nihilism.

Either one has a self-interest of forgoing their own self-interest in favor of their kin, or not. If so then we have altruistic behaviour which arises purely from selfish impulses.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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12/6/2014 10:44:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 10:11:15 PM, Envisage wrote:

This just begs the question that "viewing it as immoral is the only way for a successful society to form".

I would argue that just by establishing of these actions to simply be against the personal preferences of those in society is enough to establish order. Although I do not deny that the delusion of 'viewing said actions as immoral' had, and still continues to have utility in society today.

It may well be true that the self-delusion is the best way to maintain a society which best fulfils our-self interests. I prefer to operate on a basis which is in accordance with the way the world objectively is, however, even if the road is more difficult to take.

Although I do not consider it self-delusion, I believe that it is necessary for societies and ultimately the world to progress even further. I'm assuming that, under your version of an ideal society, these crimes that we view as immoral would at least be outlawed, as regardless of whether or not you consider them immoral, they still pose a serious detriment to society.

Though, this raises another question to my mind. If life is truly meaningless, then why bother to promote our own selfish desires? What point is there in doing so, if there is no point in living in the first place? We will accomplish nothing.

I also cannot grasp how people could cooperate with one another while, at the same time, keeping only their selfish interests in mind. Societies are formed on the basis that everyone must give up something in order to contribute to the general order, so it is unfathomable that we only consider our own interests yet somehow work together at the same time.

I'm sure you've thought about this, though, and probably have found your own solutions.


Sure, but this is irrelevant to nihilism.

Either one has a self-interest of forgoing their own self-interest in favor of their kin, or not. If so then we have altruistic behaviour which arises purely from selfish impulses.

But how can that be selfish if you only desire to advance your species? You are not benefiting yourself by advancing your kin at your own cost, are you?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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12/6/2014 11:07:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 8:58:29 PM, Envisage wrote:
I would encourage my fellow atheists and even theists to ditch preconceived notions of "meaning" and "purpose" and "existence", and really strip their philosophies down to their bare bones.

To my fellow atheists, it really isn't objectively wrong to rape babies, and deluding ourselves to believe this to be the case is hindering progress in the development of subjective collectivist philosophies which have really pragmatic application to the world which directly addresses our interests and values. To meet our values we necessarily need to be selfish as an overall race, and it's high time we realise that delusions of true altruism are no more expressions of unselfishness, than growing living cells are expressions of the overall second law of thermodynamics.

To my fellow theists, the time has come to realise that even accepting your God's existence, nihilism is still inevitable. Only the notion of God makes self-delusion of purpose and meaning even greater. Raping babies is still not objectively wrong, despite whatever your God says to the contrary, even if he exists, that is all there is to it. He may punish you indirectly if you do, but that only demonstrates that you are a slave of God, none that you are still acting in your selfish self-interests. Even altruism is selfish since you seek to avoid punishment from God, etc. God is just another tool to affect man's selfish nature.

To quote Dawkins on one of the very few things I agree with him on:

"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference."

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk...

No thanks. If I want to hear bulpoop about how religion enslaves the weak-minded, I can just watch Fullmetal Alchemist. I mean, that show was obviously created by somebody who had a bone to pick with religion.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Bennett91
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12/6/2014 11:08:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/6/2014 9:43:55 PM, Envisage wrote:

The self-delusion must end, because I hate people embracing absurdity.

You seem to be embracing absurdity with grandiose.