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Morality in Animals

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/8/2014 9:02:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

I'm not a creationist, but I do have my trollish moments. So in answer to your question:

They do have reasoning and accountability. Some of them aren't very clever, but neither are some of the people who lurk around this forum. So yeah... Yay for animals!
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/8/2014 9:34:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

They do have morals.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21

I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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12/8/2014 9:37:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

Higher animal species may have moral reasoning. What's this got to do with anything?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/8/2014 9:52:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

Probably because you haven't spent much time around any animals besides cats, cats are completely evil and way too autistic to be accountable, but most other animals exhibit moral behavior and accountability.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,964
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12/8/2014 10:08:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

First shouldn't you give a reason or two supporting the claim that animals exhibit moral reasoning in the first place?

Animals might be capable of behaving morally. I find it doubtful though. Most likely we're anthropomorphizing their behavior.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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12/8/2014 10:13:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 9:02:53 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

I'm not a creationist, but I do have my trollish moments. So in answer to your question:

They do have reasoning and accountability. Some of them aren't very clever, but neither are some of the people who lurk around this forum. So yeah... Yay for animals!

Don't talk about me like that, Jody! ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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12/8/2014 11:19:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

I agree with you. Some animals do seem to have attributes like the ones you are talking about. The Bible actually talks about this. It says that some of the animals that God created were "nephesh" animals, animals that possess "soulish" qualities like mind will and emotion. Its quite intriguing from a Christian perspective. I'm not sure if they possess morality though. That one's hard to answer, but you might like these articles.
http://www.reasons.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
The truth will set you free
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/9/2014 7:57:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 9:52:10 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

Probably because you haven't spent much time around any animals besides cats, cats are completely evil and way too autistic to be accountable, but most other animals exhibit moral behavior and accountability.

Just because your autistic, doesn't mean your to not be held accountable.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/9/2014 7:58:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.

Well we didn't create rocks either. It doesn't mean they feel pain. Just because an animal appears to feel pain doesn't mean it does. It could be just a response, like a robot would if programmed to appear as if it was in pain.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/9/2014 7:58:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 10:08:47 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

First shouldn't you give a reason or two supporting the claim that animals exhibit moral reasoning in the first place?

Animals might be capable of behaving morally. I find it doubtful though. Most likely we're anthropomorphizing their behavior.

How come whenever a feeding frenzy of pirahanas attack something, they know not to attack each other.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/9/2014 8:00:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 7:58:25 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.

Well we didn't create rocks either. It doesn't mean they feel pain. Just because an animal appears to feel pain doesn't mean it does. It could be just a response, like a robot would if programmed to appear as if it was in pain.

I hit you with the hammer. How do I know you actually feel pain?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/9/2014 8:02:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:00:09 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:58:25 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.

Well we didn't create rocks either. It doesn't mean they feel pain. Just because an animal appears to feel pain doesn't mean it does. It could be just a response, like a robot would if programmed to appear as if it was in pain.

I hit you with the hammer. How do I know you actually feel pain?

You don't. You only take it on faith, like an animal's pain. For all you know I'm a figment of your imagination just like everyone and everything else.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/9/2014 8:03:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:02:19 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:00:09 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:58:25 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.

Well we didn't create rocks either. It doesn't mean they feel pain. Just because an animal appears to feel pain doesn't mean it does. It could be just a response, like a robot would if programmed to appear as if it was in pain.

I hit you with the hammer. How do I know you actually feel pain?

You don't. You only take it on faith, like an animal's pain. For all you know I'm a figment of your imagination just like everyone and everything else.

And by my faith, I can not only end the possibility of harming one, but I don't have to feel bad by seeing others suffer from pain. Even if it means I have to stop others from inflicting pain on that individual?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/9/2014 8:05:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

You haven't been around a goat, have you?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:03:58 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:02:19 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:00:09 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:58:25 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.

Well we didn't create rocks either. It doesn't mean they feel pain. Just because an animal appears to feel pain doesn't mean it does. It could be just a response, like a robot would if programmed to appear as if it was in pain.

I hit you with the hammer. How do I know you actually feel pain?

You don't. You only take it on faith, like an animal's pain. For all you know I'm a figment of your imagination just like everyone and everything else.

And by my faith, I can not only end the possibility of harming one, but I don't have to feel bad by seeing others suffer from pain. Even if it means I have to stop others from inflicting pain on that individual?

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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12/9/2014 8:09:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 7:57:48 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:52:10 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

Probably because you haven't spent much time around any animals besides cats, cats are completely evil and way too autistic to be accountable, but most other animals exhibit moral behavior and accountability.

Just because your autistic, doesn't mean your to not be held accountable.

Not with cats.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/9/2014 8:09:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 7:56:34 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:41:04 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:33:26 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/8/2014 9:06:31 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/8/2014 8:30:18 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
Creationists and Trolls, humor me.

What makes an animal seem like it doesn't have any moral reasoning or accountability?

If you hit yourself with a hammer it hurts but if you beat a cute puppy with a hammer until it dies, you feel no pain.

You know you're real because of the pain but since you deal no pain when beating the animal it is basically a philosophical zombie.

We need to be empathizers though. That puppy can express it's in pain.

Just like a cartoon character can express pain but really it's just a reaction to stimulus.

We created the cartoon, not the puppy.

Man doesn't create anything. Man has no idea that he's experiencing a dream that was created by our invisible Creator. Everything man does was planned and created before man observed it.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,225
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12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.
Lukas8
Posts: 31
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12/9/2014 8:22:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Pleh, pleh... Morals are only stupid beliefs by the public, ussually connected to religions and cultures. Animals, hmm. You have to be more precise. There are different ways of how an animal is able to sense its environment. Also the neurological development of the nerve system is important. But you cant explain everything with bio neurology. The genetics, biochemistry and the basic hormones control us. Electrochemical data travels via. nerve cells (aka neurons), next we"re heavily influenced by hormones and other important molecules and enzymes. If you have to much hormones and other molecules ,you cant think normal, you"ll be heavily influenced by it. Like when people get drunk, do they think free? But having no chemicals... means that the data wont survive or at least you wont be able to perform any thinking. Plus the most of our decisions are being influenced unconsciously. We humans are animals (and its stupid to state that we"re not).
Because plain idiotic and uneducated and oppressed people created religions, morals, cultures, nations... Its like Christmas, why do we do it? We think that other cultures have weird rituals, but what about us. Next people in the past were extremely homo centric, that why Christianity and almost all other religions state that we"re the holy species. Morality is stupid and is only a belief backed up by the public. Animals don't do this, but many species like Wolfs, Ants, Bees have the hierarchy. As Einstein said, our stupidity is infinite. Animals basically aren't moralic, because we humans think that morals are really important, no they are not, its only what our species imagined and if you don't support it,,,, bad news..
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/9/2014 8:23:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.

Solipsism is true, therefore you don't exist. Neither does anyone else but me. So torturing and raping other people is ok, since there is nothing to feel the pain.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,225
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12/9/2014 8:25:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:23:21 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.

Solipsism is true, therefore you don't exist. Neither does anyone else but me. So torturing and raping other people is ok, since there is nothing to feel the pain.

Go away, you evil, evil robot.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,225
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12/9/2014 8:39:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:23:21 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.

Solipsism is true, therefore you don't exist. Neither does anyone else but me. So torturing and raping other people is ok, since there is nothing to feel the pain.

And another thing! If I'm the only one that exists then that means only my morality exists. Therefore objective morality exists! Checkmate!
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/9/2014 8:42:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:25:42 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:23:21 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.

Solipsism is true, therefore you don't exist. Neither does anyone else but me. So torturing and raping other people is ok, since there is nothing to feel the pain.

Go away, you evil, evil robot.

How can I be evil when evil is a nonsense word, lol. Well, you are a square circle then!
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,487
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12/9/2014 8:48:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:23:21 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.

Solipsism is true, therefore you don't exist. Neither does anyone else but me. So torturing and raping other people is ok, since there is nothing to feel the pain.

aaaaaannnnnddddd..... this is why religion is good to stop selfish rational people! athiesm! hucos pocoss!! you get the job right away do whatever its good for you and they telling me religion is evilll... yeah in my @ss..
Never fart near dog
Bennett91
Posts: 4,225
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12/9/2014 8:49:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 8:42:36 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:25:42 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:23:21 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:11:41 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/9/2014 8:06:17 AM, Wylted wrote:

You can go around murdering and torturing without remorse if you want. A true skeptic wouldn't believe in the pain of others.

I'm sure you're already aware of this but by your logic I could torture you and because I don't feel your pain you'd be a philosophical zombie, just like the dog. You'd express pain but I'd have no reason to believe it.

Solipsism is true, therefore you don't exist. Neither does anyone else but me. So torturing and raping other people is ok, since there is nothing to feel the pain.

Go away, you evil, evil robot.

How can I be evil when evil is a nonsense word, lol. Well, you are a square circle then!

https://www.google.com...