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Science and Religion

Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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5/19/2010 11:43:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Science and Religion: Where the Real Conflict Lies

Alvin Plantinga: http://vimeo.com... (Good stuff)
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 9:19:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution"

Haha, what confusion?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
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"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/21/2010 9:28:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:19:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution"

Haha, what confusion?

Because evolution isn't necessarily unguided....
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 9:29:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Naturalism is not compatible with evolution." - Plantinga

WTF!?!?!?!?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 9:32:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:28:42 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:19:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution"

Haha, what confusion?

Because evolution isn't necessarily unguided....

It's possible that it's guided, but it would be an utterly absurd notion.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/21/2010 9:35:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:28:42 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:19:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution"

Haha, what confusion?

Because evolution isn't necessarily unguided....

mmm...

NECESSARILY... no.

But LOTS OF THINGS "could be"

The thing is nothing about Evolution implies it was "guided" by anything except the nature of Reality.

And that didn't so much guide it as how things "evolve" is really completely wrapped up in the nature of reality.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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5/21/2010 9:36:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:35:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

The thing is nothing about Evolution implies it was "guided" by anything except the nature of Reality.


What is the nature of reality?
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 9:40:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:36:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:35:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

The thing is nothing about Evolution implies it was "guided" by anything except the nature of Reality.


What is the nature of reality?

That is an entirely different subject all together which would require deep inquiry, but matt was implying that evolution occurred naturally, devoid of any supernatural interference or the hand of God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
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5/21/2010 9:44:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:36:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:35:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

The thing is nothing about Evolution implies it was "guided" by anything except the nature of Reality.


What is the nature of reality?

the apparent nature of reality is that of three dimensions and the like...

and that is how we understand the processes of Evolution.

If we're talking about "evolution" we're talking bout 3d oganisms and the like.... being affected by various 3d happenings.

Does 3d fully explain the nature of reality???
I doubt it.

But we don't have any good reason to posit any other particular kind of thing...

so we talk about things within the limits of our understanding... we assume the validity of the framework we naturally see things in (3d)

And given 3d we can apparently understand the animal "things" as arising through physical processes.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/21/2010 9:47:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:44:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:36:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:35:22 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

The thing is nothing about Evolution implies it was "guided" by anything except the nature of Reality.


What is the nature of reality?

the apparent nature of reality is that of three dimensions and the like...

and that is how we understand the processes of Evolution.

If we're talking about "evolution" we're talking bout 3d oganisms and the like.... being affected by various 3d happenings.

Does 3d fully explain the nature of reality???
I doubt it.

But we don't have any good reason to posit any other particular kind of thing...

so we talk about things within the limits of our understanding... we assume the validity of the framework we naturally see things in (3d)

And given 3d we can apparently understand the animal "things" as arising through physical processes.

This makes absolutely no sense at all.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/21/2010 9:49:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
the question of the existence of Physical animals can be answered within the framework of physical reality....

questions of the validity of "Physical reality" to explain "Ultimate reality" are different.

Evolution is about Animals.

and the questions of Evolution do not appear to require answers about the nature of Phys. reality.

the questions of evolution appear to fall within the scope of phys. reality.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 9:49:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:44:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
the apparent nature of reality is that of three dimensions and the like...

and that is how we understand the processes of Evolution.

If we're talking about "evolution" we're talking bout 3d oganisms and the like.... being affected by various 3d happenings.

Does 3d fully explain the nature of reality???
I doubt it.

But we don't have any good reason to posit any other particular kind of thing...

so we talk about things within the limits of our understanding... we assume the validity of the framework we naturally see things in (3d)

And given 3d we can apparently understand the animal "things" as arising through physical processes.

What the heck is this 3d stuff? Are spirits 4d? None of this makes sense and adds confusion.

There are probably 10 or 11 dimensions, but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with supernatural realms. If one of these theories of everything prove to be true that posit multiple dimensions, that does not prove supernaturalism in the slightest. In fact, it would just show that the natural world is more diverse than previously thought.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/21/2010 9:52:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:49:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:44:14 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
the apparent nature of reality is that of three dimensions and the like...

and that is how we understand the processes of Evolution.

If we're talking about "evolution" we're talking bout 3d oganisms and the like.... being affected by various 3d happenings.

Does 3d fully explain the nature of reality???
I doubt it.

But we don't have any good reason to posit any other particular kind of thing...

so we talk about things within the limits of our understanding... we assume the validity of the framework we naturally see things in (3d)

And given 3d we can apparently understand the animal "things" as arising through physical processes.

What the heck is this 3d stuff? Are spirits 4d? None of this makes sense and adds confusion.

There are probably 10 or 11 dimensions, but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with supernatural realms. If one of these theories of everything prove to be true that posit multiple dimensions, that does not prove supernaturalism in the slightest. In fact, it would just show that the natural world is more diverse than previously thought.

i mean phys. reality as we conceive it.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/21/2010 9:53:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Evolution is not about Metaphysics.

it's about Physics.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 9:54:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:52:03 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
i mean phys. reality as we conceive it.

Why the emphasis on 3d then? As if things outside our 3 dimensions are supernatural. I don't the term 3d is a good way to represent the physical world. 3d means that you can move in the x direction, y direction, and z direction. Can you not move back forth, left right, up down in the spiritual realm?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/21/2010 9:55:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:53:01 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Evolution is not about Metaphysics.

it's about Physics.

Metaphysical questioning of 'evolution' would be metaphysical questioning about physics.

Evolutionary theory Falls WITHIN the bounds of the conception of "Physical reality".
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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5/21/2010 11:10:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Science believes that everything came into existence through a process called Big Bang. It is said that this process was faster than the speed of light- The Universe or the Multiverse in the beginning expanded at such a speed that it made 300k/sec look pale.

But Scientists do not know what caused the Big Bang. Maybe Scientists are right about the Big Bang but it was God who initiated this process called the Big Bang.

God said, "Let there be light and there was light."

Big Bang= God's Creation= Solved.
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 11:16:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 11:10:26 PM, lastrequest691 wrote:
The Universe or the Multiverse in the beginning expanded at such a speed that it made 300k/sec look pale.

No. Multiverse had no beginning. The many universes that sprout into existence have beginnings, but the Multiverse itself is eternal.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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5/21/2010 11:42:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 11:16:33 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 11:10:26 PM, lastrequest691 wrote:
The Universe or the Multiverse in the beginning expanded at such a speed that it made 300k/sec look pale.

No. Multiverse had no beginning. The many universes that sprout into existence have beginnings, but the Multiverse itself is eternal.

You're right. Our universe came out of another bigger Universe.
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/21/2010 11:44:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 9:28:42 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/21/2010 9:19:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"the confusion concerning unguided evolution and evolution"

Haha, what confusion?

Because evolution isn't necessarily unguided....

The term evolution, unqualified by any further term, suggests it is unguided.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Zetsubou
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5/22/2010 6:38:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Evolution from natural mutation is random.

It appears guided because successful mutation(Mutation that adds to the ability to reproduce) is the only one you see via natural selection.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Elliot.exe
Posts: 57
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5/22/2010 4:30:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Science and religion start of the same. Theories based on some fact but with un-filled holes. The only difference is that the scientific theories were tried and tested and became fact. Religion has not done that.

People have the freedom to belive in what ever they like but when they say that something that has not been proven as fact is fact they I have the right to call them dumb...and that is a 100% thesis based fact lol
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/22/2010 4:33:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:30:33 PM, Elliot.exe wrote:
Science and religion start of the same. Theories based on some fact but with un-filled holes.

That's not the scientific definition of theory - perhaps you mean hypothesis.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/22/2010 4:35:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:30:33 PM, Elliot.exe wrote:
Science and religion start of the same. Theories based on some fact but with un-filled holes. The only difference is that the scientific theories were tried and tested and became fact. Religion has not done that.

People have the freedom to belive in what ever they like but when they say that something that has not been proven as fact is fact they I have the right to call them dumb...and that is a 100% thesis based fact lol

Prove that that external world is in fact mind-independent. A deductive syllogism should do nicely. (^_^)
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BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/22/2010 4:41:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:35:35 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/22/2010 4:30:33 PM, Elliot.exe wrote:
Science and religion start of the same. Theories based on some fact but with un-filled holes. The only difference is that the scientific theories were tried and tested and became fact. Religion has not done that.

People have the freedom to belive in what ever they like but when they say that something that has not been proven as fact is fact they I have the right to call them dumb...and that is a 100% thesis based fact lol

Prove that that external world is in fact mind-independent. A deductive syllogism should do nicely. (^_^)

Stop scaring away the new people. >.>