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Cerebral_Narcissist
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5/21/2010 10:00:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This thread is aimed at those with religious faith.

Let us say that you crash land/marooned on a remote desert island. The natives have never had any contact with the outside world by an absurd coincidence all speak English fluent. They have never heard of your religion, have never considered religion at all and so are 'default atheists'.

How do you convert them to your faith, assuming you are inclined to do so.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Marauder
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5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
We convert no-one, Christ is the one saves and converts through the holy spirit. No-one should be able to say 'I was saved by Paul' or 'Barnabas' but should only say 'By Jesus Christ'. I the max you could say an evangelize who preaches the word was used as a 'conduit' for gods salvation, but none but God have the power to convert the heart.

Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own, as is the case any given island senario I have heard of actually happening before.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
GeoLaureate8
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5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own

Spiritual =/= Belief in God

An Atheistic tribe can be spiritual. Native religions like the Hopi's are atheists.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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5/21/2010 12:35:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think attraction rather than promotion is a better approach in general. It makes little difference to me and my relationship with God if others do not share my faith. However, if someone should ask about finding some peace in their life, i would be happy to provide my experience.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/21/2010 12:44:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own

Spiritual =/= Belief in God

An Atheistic tribe can be spiritual. Native religions like the Hopi's are atheists.

"The Hopi religion is anti-war. To be Hopi is to strive toward this concept, which involves a state of total reverence and respect for all things, to be at peace with these things, and to live in accordance with the instructions of Maasaw, the Creator or Caretaker of Earth. The Hopi observe their traditional ceremonies for the benefit of the entire world." http://en.wikipedia.org...

the Hopi believed in God Geo.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/21/2010 12:45:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
We convert no-one, Christ is the one saves and converts through the holy spirit. No-one should be able to say 'I was saved by Paul' or 'Barnabas' but should only say 'By Jesus Christ'. I the max you could say an evangelize who preaches the word was used as a 'conduit' for gods salvation, but none but God have the power to convert the heart.

I am not asking for creative semantic evasions.


Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own, as is the case any given island senario I have heard of actually happening before.

Because that is the premise of the hypothetical situation and simplist way of baiting one of you guys into an actual expression of faith.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 12:49:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:35:42 PM, innomen wrote:
I think attraction rather than promotion is a better approach in general. It makes little difference to me and my relationship with God if others do not share my faith. However, if someone should ask about finding some peace in their life, i would be happy to provide my experience.

There's Bible verses explicitly telling followers to preach the good news to the four corners of the earth.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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5/21/2010 12:53:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:45:53 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
We convert no-one, Christ is the one saves and converts through the holy spirit. No-one should be able to say 'I was saved by Paul' or 'Barnabas' but should only say 'By Jesus Christ'. I the max you could say an evangelize who preaches the word was used as a 'conduit' for gods salvation, but none but God have the power to convert the heart.

I am not asking for creative semantic evasions.


Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own, as is the case any given island senario I have heard of actually happening before.

Because that is the premise of the hypothetical situation and simplist way of baiting one of you guys into an actual expression of faith.

Huh?
innomen
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5/21/2010 12:53:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:49:48 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:35:42 PM, innomen wrote:
I think attraction rather than promotion is a better approach in general. It makes little difference to me and my relationship with God if others do not share my faith. However, if someone should ask about finding some peace in their life, i would be happy to provide my experience.

There's Bible verses explicitly telling followers to preach the good news to the four corners of the earth.

Yeah so?
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/21/2010 1:07:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:45:53 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Because that is the premise of the hypothetical situation and simplest way of baiting one of you guys into an actual expression of faith.

http://www.christianindex.org... http://www.epinions.com...

If you really interested in how such a scenario would play out, watch the movie, 'end of the spear' or read the book. It is a true story. and that is what would happen.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 2:26:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:44:51 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own

Spiritual =/= Belief in God

An Atheistic tribe can be spiritual. Native religions like the Hopi's are atheists.

"The Hopi religion is anti-war. To be Hopi is to strive toward this concept, which involves a state of total reverence and respect for all things, to be at peace with these things, and to live in accordance with the instructions of Maasaw, the Creator or Caretaker of Earth. The Hopi observe their traditional ceremonies for the benefit of the entire world." http://en.wikipedia.org...

the Hopi believed in God Geo.

I was under the impression they were pantheists with a world soul, but nonetheless, that's besides the point. Even though my example fails, there's spiritual atheist traditions.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/21/2010 2:52:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 2:26:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:44:51 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I was under the impression they were pantheists with a world soul, but nonetheless, that's besides the point. Even though my example fails, there's spiritual atheist traditions.

Explain a spiritual atheist.
mattrodstrom
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5/21/2010 2:57:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 2:52:24 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/21/2010 2:26:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:44:51 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I was under the impression they were pantheists with a world soul, but nonetheless, that's besides the point. Even though my example fails, there's spiritual atheist traditions.

Explain a spiritual atheist.

yeah I'd hesitate to call it spiritual...

but I think Nietzsche would be one of those he has in mind...

no?

also... OBVIOUSLY he has in mind buddha
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
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5/21/2010 3:02:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 2:57:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/21/2010 2:52:24 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/21/2010 2:26:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:44:51 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I was under the impression they were pantheists with a world soul, but nonetheless, that's besides the point. Even though my example fails, there's spiritual atheist traditions.

Explain a spiritual atheist.

yeah I'd hesitate to call it spiritual...

but I think Nietzsche would be one of those he has in mind...

no?

also... OBVIOUSLY he has in mind buddha

I think we may have different understandings of the word spiritual.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/21/2010 3:02:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 2:57:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
yeah I'd hesitate to call it spiritual...

but I think Nietzsche would be one of those he has in mind...

no?

also... OBVIOUSLY he has in mind buddha

Actually, not really. Buddha reject a "soul" or "spirit."

There are belief systems that believe in souls and spirits, but no God.

In my use of the term, however, I use to to mean your metaphysical aspirations, your philosophical objectives or path in life. So I don't use it in the sense that I'm enhancing the future of my soul's next life, but rather enhance this life here and now.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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5/21/2010 3:06:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 3:02:18 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 2:57:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
yeah I'd hesitate to call it spiritual...

but I think Nietzsche would be one of those he has in mind...

no?

also... OBVIOUSLY he has in mind buddha

Actually, not really. Buddha reject a "soul" or "spirit."

There are belief systems that believe in souls and spirits, but no God.

In my use of the term, however, I use to to mean your metaphysical aspirations, your philosophical objectives or path in life. So I don't use it in the sense that I'm enhancing the future of my soul's next life, but rather enhance this life here and now.
Yeah, i don't mean that either. What are you speaking of by metaphysical aspirations? Or philosophical objectives? Those are fairly vague as terms.
GeoLaureate8
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5/21/2010 6:57:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 3:06:13 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/21/2010 3:02:18 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In my use of the term, however, I use to to mean your metaphysical aspirations, your philosophical objectives or path in life. So I don't use it in the sense that I'm enhancing the future of my soul's next life, but rather enhance this life here and now.
Yeah, i don't mean that either. What are you speaking of by metaphysical aspirations? Or philosophical objectives? Those are fairly vague as terms.

Things that include what you want to do in your life outside of career goals. It has to remain vague because if it were any more specific it would exclude others' definition of spiritual.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/21/2010 7:21:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 5:01:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I wonder what would happen if I tried to preach Islam to my militant atheist sister? O.O I'm not even going to try though...

back to being muslim already? o.O
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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5/21/2010 7:53:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 10:00:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
This thread is aimed at those with religious faith.

Let us say that you crash land/marooned on a remote desert island. The natives have never had any contact with the outside world by an absurd coincidence all speak English fluent. They have never heard of your religion, have never considered religion at all and so are 'default atheists'.

How do you convert them to your faith, assuming you are inclined to do so.

If my only goal was to maximize converts, then I would do what the Spanish did. I would come with a rifle in one hand and a Bible in the other. As it turns out, people find this style of evangelizing to be rather persuasive.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
lastrequest691
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5/21/2010 10:58:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I wouldn't force them to convert to my religion. I would let them die and go to hell. It is their FREE WILL.

But if God told me to preach then I would tell them about Christ but never force them to accept Christ.

Accept Christ right now- Time is running out.
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/21/2010 11:34:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 12:53:14 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:45:53 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:29:24 PM, Marauder wrote:
We convert no-one, Christ is the one saves and converts through the holy spirit. No-one should be able to say 'I was saved by Paul' or 'Barnabas' but should only say 'By Jesus Christ'. I the max you could say an evangelize who preaches the word was used as a 'conduit' for gods salvation, but none but God have the power to convert the heart.

I am not asking for creative semantic evasions.


Incedently, why are they defalt athiest? surely they have come up some spiritual understanding of there own, as is the case any given island senario I have heard of actually happening before.

Because that is the premise of the hypothetical situation and simplist way of baiting one of you guys into an actual expression of faith.

Huh?

Sorry, wasn't that obvious?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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5/21/2010 11:36:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 1:07:35 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:45:53 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:

Because that is the premise of the hypothetical situation and simplest way of baiting one of you guys into an actual expression of faith.

http://www.christianindex.org... http://www.epinions.com...

If you really interested in how such a scenario would play out, watch the movie, 'end of the spear' or read the book. It is a true story. and that is what would happen.

No, I would like YOU to address the question, in your own words. You know actually act like you might believe in something, possibly?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/21/2010 11:37:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 2:52:24 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/21/2010 2:26:35 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:44:51 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 5/21/2010 12:34:11 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

I was under the impression they were pantheists with a world soul, but nonetheless, that's besides the point. Even though my example fails, there's spiritual atheist traditions.

Explain a spiritual atheist.

Theosophists, Bhuddists?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/21/2010 11:39:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 7:53:28 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 5/21/2010 10:00:44 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
This thread is aimed at those with religious faith.

Let us say that you crash land/marooned on a remote desert island. The natives have never had any contact with the outside world by an absurd coincidence all speak English fluent. They have never heard of your religion, have never considered religion at all and so are 'default atheists'.

How do you convert them to your faith, assuming you are inclined to do so.

If my only goal was to maximize converts, then I would do what the Spanish did. I would come with a rifle in one hand and a Bible in the other. As it turns out, people find this style of evangelizing to be rather persuasive.

Okay good point.

How would you convince them, on an cognitive basis, of the truth of your religion?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
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5/22/2010 11:48:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 7:21:17 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/21/2010 5:01:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I wonder what would happen if I tried to preach Islam to my militant atheist sister? O.O I'm not even going to try though...

back to being muslim already? o.O

Nah, I never really left Islam. I realized I still believed in Islamic teachings.
innomen
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5/22/2010 1:17:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/21/2010 6:57:22 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/21/2010 3:06:13 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/21/2010 3:02:18 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
In my use of the term, however, I use to to mean your metaphysical aspirations, your philosophical objectives or path in life. So I don't use it in the sense that I'm enhancing the future of my soul's next life, but rather enhance this life here and now.
Yeah, i don't mean that either. What are you speaking of by metaphysical aspirations? Or philosophical objectives? Those are fairly vague as terms.

Things that include what you want to do in your life outside of career goals. It has to remain vague because if it were any more specific it would exclude others' definition of spiritual.

I think i would like to debate you on something of this nature. Your vagueness is a weakness. Your vagueness is convenient. I'm not even sure what your point is on "excluding other's definition of spiritual". Your entire premise is a mess, and i think you have over complicated things out of fear.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/22/2010 1:49:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 1:17:17 PM, innomen wrote:

I think i would like to debate you on something of this nature. Your vagueness is a weakness. Your vagueness is convenient. I'm not even sure what your point is on "excluding other's definition of spiritual". Your entire premise is a mess, and i think you have over complicated things out of fear.

This is the definition I usually go by.

Spirituality: an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the "deepest values and meanings by which people live." - http://en.wikipedia.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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5/22/2010 1:58:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 11:48:51 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/21/2010 7:21:17 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/21/2010 5:01:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I wonder what would happen if I tried to preach Islam to my militant atheist sister? O.O I'm not even going to try though...

back to being muslim already? o.O

Nah, I never really left Islam. I realized I still believed in Islamic teachings.
When did you give the impression you left?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.