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Who wants to convert Mormons?

Volkov
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5/22/2010 3:38:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I had some Mormons come to my door just half an hour ago, two cute ones at that. They were proselytizing as usual, but this was my first real chance to engage with these door-to-door preachers. It was quite fun.

They gave me a Book of Mormon, pointed me to a chapter or two, and said they'd come back Monday. I want to be ready for them, so I ask all free-thinking persons on here to give me advice on hour to convert these Mormons.

And yes, I'm dead serious. I want to try and convert these Americans who have strayed very far off the beaten path, away from their demon religion and to my non-religion. I don't know if I can do it, but I need to at least try. Its good practice to see if I'm able to convert stalwarts into hardened opponents. Or at least sow the seeds of doubt in their mind. It shall be fun.

So, who's got some tips?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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5/22/2010 3:45:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ask questions they are probably not used to answering or expecting to. Racism is a fun one. Lamanites received "dark skin" as a punishment; if they received the Gospel they would become "white and delightsome".

After much publicity and outcry the text was changed to "pure". Go God translation that was wrong.
Volkov
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5/22/2010 3:47:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:45:53 PM, Puck wrote:
Ask questions they are probably not used to answering or expecting to. Racism is a fun one. Lamanites received "dark skin" as a punishment; if they received the Gospel they would become "white and delightsome".

After much publicity and outcry the text was changed to "pure". Go God translation that was wrong.

I was thinking about playing that card. It'd be a tough one to mull over, to be sure. I'll have to note that change in the translation.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/22/2010 3:49:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Therefore I did obey the voice of the Spirit, and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword." - 1 Nephi 4:18

"Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 270; History of the Church, 5: 218)

"...wherefore, as they were WHITE, and exceeding fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a SKIN OF BLACKNESS to come upon them."
(BOOK OF MORMON, page 61, 2 Nephi 5, verse 21)

"And the skins of the Lamanites were DARK, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which WAS A CURSE upon them because of their transgression..." (BOOK OF MORMON, page 201, Alma 3, verse 6)
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
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5/22/2010 3:51:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You can get more technical. They use the KJV version (and consequent mistake) of Lucifer - a Latin based term that didn't exist at the time the tablets were said to have been written for the Babylonian King in the OT. Smith didn't translate "raca" which was left untranslated in the KJV despite apparently having a direct pipeline to Godly translation and so on.
GeoLaureate8
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5/22/2010 3:52:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:52:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
Nice finds Geo. I dunno how I'll work that into it, though. I want to convert them, not offend them.

They're offended by their own book?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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5/22/2010 3:53:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:51:42 PM, Puck wrote:
You can get more technical. They use the KJV version (and consequent mistake) of Lucifer - a Latin based term that didn't exist at the time the tablets were said to have been written for the Babylonian King in the OT. Smith didn't translate "raca" which was left untranslated in the KJV despite apparently having a direct pipeline to Godly translation and so on.

Haha, brilliant! That's exactly the sort of thing I need.
Volkov
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5/22/2010 3:53:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:52:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
They're offended by their own book?

Well, I don't want to call them racists, do I?
GeoLaureate8
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5/22/2010 3:54:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:53:31 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/22/2010 3:52:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
They're offended by their own book?

Well, I don't want to call them racists, do I?

Then just show them all the violent verses.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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5/22/2010 3:55:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Then just show them all the violent verses.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Excellent. That Alma passages are good - that's where they told me to read something.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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5/22/2010 4:04:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It just so happens that two came to my door on Thursday. After pwning them, all they said was they would give me the book of Mormon and "check up on you to see how you were doing" in 5 weeks. In other words, "I have no clue how to defend my faith."
kfc
Puck
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5/22/2010 4:06:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:04:36 PM, Koopin wrote:
It just so happens that two came to my door on Thursday. After pwning them, all they said was they would give me the book of Mormon and "check up on you to see how you were doing" in 5 weeks. In other words, "I have no clue how to defend my faith."

General pattern is to in those cases send someone higher up the chain back to your house.
Volkov
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5/22/2010 4:07:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:04:36 PM, Koopin wrote:
It just so happens that two came to my door on Thursday. After pwning them, all they said was they would give me the book of Mormon and "check up on you to see how you were doing" in 5 weeks. In other words, "I have no clue how to defend my faith."

Heh. I asked some questions and I got the usual rebuttal of, "I just know because I prayed to God and he told me so." I didn't push it past that because a game was on, but other things I noted - how do you know the age of the Book of Mormon, did you know Smith was a convicted conman, etc. - had some, hm, "interesting" rebuttals that were halfway between mutterings and half-assed attempts.
Koopin
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5/22/2010 4:08:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:06:15 PM, Puck wrote:
At 5/22/2010 4:04:36 PM, Koopin wrote:
It just so happens that two came to my door on Thursday. After pwning them, all they said was they would give me the book of Mormon and "check up on you to see how you were doing" in 5 weeks. In other words, "I have no clue how to defend my faith."

General pattern is to in those cases send someone higher up the chain back to your house.

Yes, that has happened before to my parents.
kfc
Volkov
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5/22/2010 4:09:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:06:15 PM, Puck wrote:
General pattern is to in those cases send someone higher up the chain back to your house.

I hope so. I asked them were the Mormon church was in my city (funnily enough on a road called "Headon") and I intend on bugging them sometime, or go down to Stoney Creek and bug the youth groups, like back in the old days with the Pentecostals. Ah, those were good times.
Koopin
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5/22/2010 4:12:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:07:59 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/22/2010 4:04:36 PM, Koopin wrote:
It just so happens that two came to my door on Thursday. After pwning them, all they said was they would give me the book of Mormon and "check up on you to see how you were doing" in 5 weeks. In other words, "I have no clue how to defend my faith."

Heh. I asked some questions and I got the usual rebuttal of, "I just know because I prayed to God and he told me so." I didn't push it past that because a game was on, but other things I noted - how do you know the age of the Book of Mormon, did you know Smith was a convicted conman, etc. - had some, hm, "interesting" rebuttals that were halfway between mutterings and half-assed attempts.

In there book, it talks about wars that had elephants in it. Elephants were not know to America. Also, there were certain types of metals that were brought over by the English. But in the book, it talks of how these metals were used.

I am a Christian so I did not use any 'why God can't be real' arguments. But the elephant thing is simply common since, Joe smith was a liar.
kfc
Volkov
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5/22/2010 4:17:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:12:20 PM, Koopin wrote:
In there book, it talks about wars that had elephants in it. Elephants were not know to America. Also, there were certain types of metals that were brought over by the English. But in the book, it talks of how these metals were used.

I am a Christian so I did not use any 'why God can't be real' arguments. But the elephant thing is simply common since, Joe smith was a liar.

Good catches. That's going to spin heads around a little. xD

I'll try and avoid "why God can't be real" arguments as well. I don't want to go all out on them - I'm too nice for that. But, the seeds of doubt must be spread.
J.Kenyon
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5/22/2010 4:29:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 3:55:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/22/2010 3:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Then just show them all the violent verses.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Excellent. That Alma passages are good - that's where they told me to read something.

Just because the verses are violent doesn't mean they can't be true. God may be an a$$hole, but that doesn't me he can't exist. It really bugs me when people cite verses to try to prove religions false by showing how they are violent. They're useful when debating religious ethics and refuting claims that God is "loving" or "merciful," but that's about it.

Skeptic's Annotated Bible has some great stuff on the Book of Mormon. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com... Go through the historical contradictions section and pwn them into the ground.
Reasoning
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5/22/2010 4:33:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:26:30 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
When it comes to Mormonism, I've always wanted to ask why it took thousands of years to come up with the "true" way to Heaven, even though people have apparently been "saved" for millenia, inasmuch as Mormons accept the Bible. I wonder how they reconcile the obvious discrepancies.

It didn't. Mormonism was merely perverted and Joseph Smith restored the true faith.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
GeoLaureate8
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5/22/2010 4:38:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 4:29:20 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 5/22/2010 3:55:42 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/22/2010 3:54:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Then just show them all the violent verses.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com...

Excellent. That Alma passages are good - that's where they told me to read something.

Just because the verses are violent doesn't mean they can't be true. God may be an a$$hole, but that doesn't me he can't exist. It really bugs me when people cite verses to try to prove religions false by showing how they are violent. They're useful when debating religious ethics and refuting claims that God is "loving" or "merciful," but that's about it.

Nobody ever does that. The point of citing violent verses is to counter the "God is love" bs or the idea that believing in this being is desirable. Since most people wouldn't want to be associated with a violent doctrine, it's useful to show them that their doctrine is extremely gruesome and violent.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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5/22/2010 6:22:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 6:21:18 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Ask Ragnar. He was a mormon for half his life.

I'm not sure I want Objectivist talking points. I might paint myself more devilish than need be. xD
wjmelements
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5/22/2010 6:24:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 6:22:13 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 5/22/2010 6:21:18 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Ask Ragnar. He was a mormon for half his life.

I'm not sure I want Objectivist talking points. I might paint myself more devilish than need be. xD

Ragnar's religious views aren't especially objectivist. He just has a better idea at what will separate the Mormons from their church than most of us.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
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5/22/2010 6:24:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 6:24:12 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Ragnar's religious views aren't especially objectivist. He just has a better idea at what will separate the Mormons from their church than most of us.

Fair enough. I shall seek out the Randbot.
Ragnar_Rahl
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5/22/2010 9:19:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/22/2010 6:21:18 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Ask Ragnar. He was a mormon for half his life.

I was a mormon for about 2 years. 9-11 or so. Despite a family history of Mormonism (complex story lol), I definitely was not Mormon for "half my life.". And a sample size of one isn't phenomenal, but here goes.

The Mormon position as I learned it is that God doesn't hold people who weren't given his word responsible for not being Mormon-- although he does hold them incrementally more responsible the closer they get to it (they have to be a Jew if they were in old Israel, they have to be a Christian if they heard testimony about Jesus Christ, they only have to be Mormon if they heard, well, Mormon testimony). So I doubt Cody's proposal of asking why it "took thousands of years" is going to be any more effective than it will for the average Christian, and it doesn't seem that outlandish when you're in it that God gives different people different tests as long as he gives them all some tests (Incidentally, thinking about how babies get a FREE PASS TO HEAVEN, NO TESTS if they are murdered as babies, or, heck, anything up to 8 years old is a lot more uncomfortable subject in my memory than thinking about adult heathens. Heathens still had to pass some tests of "being a good person" or whatever, just different ones than those who received Christian testimony, and it would be a boring world if no one's experiences differed. Babies die of SIDS, now that's just unfair, getting their free ride to heaven aboard some tosh coach (or however Eggleston would say it. Ask a Mormon for what sin they got left off that gravy train.

Or you can ask them what specifically was their "experience" when they prayed to God for assurance. And ask them to see if they replicate it praying to Huitzilopoctli. It worked for me, but I was already kinda doubting for no specific reason, so it might not be the best shot. If they aren't already doubting they might regard it as sinful (remind them that they can repent of anything once ), and more importantly, they have to be honest with themselves which is unlikely.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.