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Fine tuning.

bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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12/14/2014 10:09:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Well said.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/14/2014 10:52:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

I suppose that whether or not those statements are true depends on how "omnipotence" is interpreted.

Are omnipotence and paradox subject to each other or exclusive of each other?

Is one omnipotent if he/she can do all that can be done? Or does omnipotence fall short if it fails to do all that imagination demands it must do?

To elaborate, I don't believe God can stand outside of infinity. But I believe He completely comprehends infinity. I also don't believe God can create or destroy matter. But I believe He has complete control over matter. Do my beliefs negate His omnipotence, or support it?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,942
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12/14/2014 11:10:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A fine-tuned universe is more indicative of an intelligent designer than a universe suspended in a void. If God wanted people to come to know him without directly revealing himself then a fine-tuned universe is better than one that isn't.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/14/2014 1:06:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

A thought provoking analysis and we'll stated. I like it when you move past the one liners. You should do it more often.

Not that your one liners don't speak a thousand words. Sometimes I wish I had that talent. Verbosity often leads to unclear things.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/14/2014 1:45:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Our all-powerful God is so brilliant in mind and strength that with one word God made the finely tuned universe.

This shows a more powerful God than even one who sustains life in a vacuum.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/14/2014 1:52:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

I believe you will have to define "omnipotent god" in order to show that omnipotence and fine tuning are mutually exclusive.

My thoughts are that the existence of physical laws do not indicate that god is not omnipotent. Perhaps if you break the argument down a little more, it will make more sense to me.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/14/2014 2:02:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 1:45:57 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Our all-powerful God is so brilliant in mind and strength that with one word God made the finely tuned universe.

This shows a more powerful God than even one who sustains life in a vacuum.

You are a hopeless romantic. Not a bad thing really. Being an artistic person I can relate.

IF there really was a 'creator', I've always thought one creative thought at the beginning of time, knowing the very outcome of every molecule would be much more impressive than a magical 6 day process. But still, highly unlikely. The more powerful we make God, the less believable the concept becomes.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/14/2014 2:06:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 2:02:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/14/2014 1:45:57 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Our all-powerful God is so brilliant in mind and strength that with one word God made the finely tuned universe.

This shows a more powerful God than even one who sustains life in a vacuum.

You are a hopeless romantic. Not a bad thing really. Being an artistic person I can relate.

IF there really was a 'creator', I've always thought one creative thought at the beginning of time, knowing the very outcome of every molecule would be much more impressive than a magical 6 day process. But still, highly unlikely. The more powerful we make God, the less believable the concept becomes.

What? Maybe God likes to get his hands dirty.

I take Genesis 6 days of creation as a Poem. It matches Hebrew structure for poetry.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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12/14/2014 2:38:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 11:10:58 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
A fine-tuned universe is more indicative of an intelligent designer than a universe suspended in a void. If God wanted people to come to know him without directly revealing himself then a fine-tuned universe is better than one that isn't.

The OP actually walks one through the logic, you offer only a statement of faith. Try using some logic.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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12/14/2014 2:41:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 1:45:57 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Our all-powerful God is so brilliant in mind and strength that with one word God made the finely tuned universe.

One word, eh? What was that word? Kalamazoo? Geronimo? Superkalifragilisticexpealidocious?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/14/2014 2:55:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 2:06:53 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/14/2014 2:02:08 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/14/2014 1:45:57 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Our all-powerful God is so brilliant in mind and strength that with one word God made the finely tuned universe.

This shows a more powerful God than even one who sustains life in a vacuum.

You are a hopeless romantic. Not a bad thing really. Being an artistic person I can relate.

IF there really was a 'creator', I've always thought one creative thought at the beginning of time, knowing the very outcome of every molecule would be much more impressive than a magical 6 day process. But still, highly unlikely. The more powerful we make God, the less believable the concept becomes.

What? Maybe God likes to get his hands dirty.

I take Genesis 6 days of creation as a Poem. It matches Hebrew structure for poetry.

A lesson in poetry. It just goes to show that our creative attributes developed long ago, maybe 100,000 years before the ancient Hebrews were so artistically developed that they were able to use artful expression in the form of the written word. Creativity helped us make sense of the things we didn't understand. It still does. Intelligence amounts to nothing without creative thought.

The concept of God is even described as a creative being and our ancestors knew that great things can and will be done because of that one awesome attribute we possess. Coupled with intelligent reason it is what makes us special.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Jayhawker_Soule
Posts: 169
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12/14/2014 3:53:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Pretty sloppy.
a) You fail to define omnipotence (see, for example. the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry) and,
b) You implicitly claim that 'could' implies 'would'.

The result strikes me as little more than sophistry straining to sound clever.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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12/15/2014 2:14:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 3:53:15 PM, Jayhawker_Soule wrote:
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

Pretty sloppy.
a) You fail to define omnipotence (see, for example. the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry) and,
b) You implicitly claim that 'could' implies 'would'.

The result strikes me as little more than sophistry straining to sound clever.
I never strain to sound clever.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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12/15/2014 2:17:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/14/2014 1:52:01 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/14/2014 9:47:31 AM, bulproof wrote:
Fine tuning is an absolute denial of an omnipotent god.
An omnipotent god could create and maintain life in a void.
An omnipotent god has no need of laws that allow life to exist.
An omnipotent god can just create and sustain life without any laws.
A fine tuned universe is proof that an omnipotent god does not exist and didn't create this universe or life.

I believe you will have to define "omnipotent god" in order to show that omnipotence and fine tuning are mutually exclusive.
It's your fantasy, not mine but all powerful able to do all is omnipotent
My thoughts are that the existence of physical laws do not indicate that god is not omnipotent. Perhaps if you break the argument down a little more, it will make more sense to me.
I'm glad you have the thoughts suplied to you by ancient goatherds, I find them irrelevant.
I've noticed that the intelligent people have had no problem making sense of it.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin