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Dying twice?

Skyangel
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12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".
Skyangel
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12/15/2014 5:40:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Now consider the fact that many people are already "dead" in the sense of being "dead in sins"

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

If the living begin by being "spiritually dead" then any death to that spiritual death results in spiritual life.... correct?
Being "quickened" is the same as being "enlightened" or "raised from the dead" spiritually.
That is death to death. That is what the bible refers to as a second death.
Skyangel
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12/15/2014 5:41:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is no death to physical death. Physical death will always remain as a physical death. There will never come a time at any time in future when physical death is annihilated because it is appointed to man ONCE to die. That one death is a physical death. Any second death does not result in death but results in spiritual life.

If you are already dead spiritually and you never rise from that place of darkness, ignorance, inner torment, inner confusion, inner hell. you will die in that state when you die physically. You will only ever die once.
Skyangel
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12/15/2014 5:42:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Any resurrection is a spiritual thing not a physical thing. It is about being enlightened from the darkness and living in the light. If you are already enlightened then you have already been resurrected from the dead and won't be resurrected from any physically dead state at any time because your physical death is your one and only literal death.

The physical dead know nothing physically. The spiritually dead know nothing spiritually.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Physically living people know they will die.

Spiritually dead people do not know they will live. They lie in their graves waiting for someone to come along and resurrect them from their state of ignorance. They cannot ask to be raised from the dead because they are unaware they are dead in the first place. Maybe they like to remain ignorant and not have any knowledge of God? Maybe they don't want to be like Eve and gain any knowledge of God? maybe they are perfectly happy and content to obey God and NOT eat of the tree of knowledge in the first place and not die to death.

Therefore the spiritually living people really ought to leave the dead rest in peace and stop trying to wake them out of their sleep. "Let the dead bury their dead."
Skyangel
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12/15/2014 5:42:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As for the spiritually living, you need to understand you have already been resurrected from the dead and stop believing the fantasy about your body one day being resurrected from the dead because it will never be physically resurrected. Your body returns to dust and remains dust.

Gen 3:9
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Skyangel
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12/15/2014 5:43:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ultimately we all go back to where we came from. The physical perishes. Physical remains physical. It is a temporal existence. The spiritual/energy goes back to its original place back to invisibility. It is an eternal existence. Energy/God cannot be created or destroyed. It is immortal and indestructible.

Energy/God does not torture anyone for not believing in it. Mankind torture themselves with their own imaginations and torture each other because those imaginations cause them to be self deluded, angry, hateful and unkind to each other.

Humans need to die to those negative attitudes toward each other and stop condemning each other for not agreeing with each other.

Ignorant people will always exist. Childish people will always exist. Blind, deaf, mute, people will always exist. The dead will always be among us. Such is life in reality. We can help and heal some but not all. Not even Jesus could heal all. He only healed those who believed he could heal them.

Truth can only set people free if they believe the truth. It does not set anyone free as long as they reject and avoid and ignore the truth.

People who live in fantasy land tend to avoid and ignore the Truth. They are too busy worshiping idols and following imaginary characters to follow Truth and live a real life.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!

I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.

I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.
bulproof
Posts: 25,218
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12/15/2014 11:00:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.


I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.

The evidence of billions of years of existence is that you live once and die.
End of story.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/15/2014 11:20:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 11:00:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.


I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.

The evidence of billions of years of existence is that you live once and die.
End of story.

Wrong, since you are just energy and energy cannot die. It cannot be created or destroyed.
Death is therefore just a word we use to describe a change of form.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/15/2014 11:48:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

True, "Death" being cast into the lake of fire is indeed the death of "Death", which is supported by 1 Cor. 15:26. 'The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death'. (See also vs 54 and 2 Tim. 1:10.)

But that doesn't negate the second death of "the disobedient". In John 8:51 we read: '...if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death'. (See also John 5:24; 11:26.) I'm pretty sure you can't show me folks up to 2000 years old, who keep His saying, walking about. They all saw the kind of death that leaves behind rotting corpses. The argument can be made that Christ is simply saying that no one can keep his saying, but that makes no sense. Why ask a man to keep his saying if it cannot be done? So we must deduce that a second death is being spoken of here.

If you look at Rev. 20:14, and the following verse, you can see that death and hell are not the only things cast into the fire. Those not found in the book of life, (the disobedient) went in as well. As a side note, the fact that death, a non-physical entity, is cast into the lake of fire indicates that the lake of fire must be allegorical. Since it is allegorical for "death", it must also be allegorical for the disobedient. Supporting that is the fact that hell gets tossed in as well. Kind of hard to go to a hell that's been cast into a destructive fire.

So what about Hebrews 9:27? It's correct. Note that it says, '...but after this the judgment'. Before the judgment, we die and rot just once. It's after the judgment that the disobedient get zapped with the second death.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bulproof
Posts: 25,218
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12/16/2014 12:04:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 11:20:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:00:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.


I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.

The evidence of billions of years of existence is that you live once and die.
End of story.

Wrong, since you are just energy and energy cannot die. It cannot be created or destroyed.
Death is therefore just a word we use to describe a change of form.
You misunderstand what I wrote and I kept it simple.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/16/2014 12:12:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:04:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:20:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:00:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.


I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.

The evidence of billions of years of existence is that you live once and die.
End of story.

Wrong, since you are just energy and energy cannot die. It cannot be created or destroyed.
Death is therefore just a word we use to describe a change of form.
You misunderstand what I wrote and I kept it simple.

I didn't misunderstand you at all. I know you are talking about the human body from an average atheists point of view. You were not even thinking about the concept of being an indestructible mass of energy. I decided to give you something to think about.
Maybe now you will believe in eternal life. Do you believe you are energy and will always exist as energy? ;-)
bulproof
Posts: 25,218
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12/16/2014 12:14:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:12:14 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:04:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:20:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:00:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.


I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.

The evidence of billions of years of existence is that you live once and die.
End of story.

Wrong, since you are just energy and energy cannot die. It cannot be created or destroyed.
Death is therefore just a word we use to describe a change of form.
You misunderstand what I wrote and I kept it simple.

I didn't misunderstand you at all. I know you are talking about the human body from an average atheists point of view. You were not even thinking about the concept of being an indestructible mass of energy. I decided to give you something to think about.
Maybe now you will believe in eternal life. Do you believe you are energy and will always exist as energy? ;-)

I drink, therefore I am.
Will I drink when I'm dead?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/16/2014 12:55:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 11:48:45 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

True, "Death" being cast into the lake of fire is indeed the death of "Death", which is supported by 1 Cor. 15:26. 'The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death'. (See also vs 54 and 2 Tim. 1:10.)

But that doesn't negate the second death of "the disobedient". In John 8:51 we read: '...if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death'. (See also John 5:24; 11:26.) I'm pretty sure you can't show me folks up to 2000 years old, who keep His saying, walking about. They all saw the kind of death that leaves behind rotting corpses. The argument can be made that Christ is simply saying that no one can keep his saying, but that makes no sense. Why ask a man to keep his saying if it cannot be done? So we must deduce that a second death is being spoken of here.


Jesus was obviously talking about "spiritual death" not physical death. The Pharisees also thought he was mad for saying that.
John 5:52-53 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The "second death" is a spiritual death to "death". It is an enlightenment, an awakening from "spiritual sleep" which is also called "death".
Death and sleep are often used synonymously in the bible. ( John 11:11-14, Matt 9:23-26 )

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Those who live in the light/ life will never live in darkness/death.

If you look at Rev. 20:14, and the following verse, you can see that death and hell are not the only things cast into the fire. Those not found in the book of life, (the disobedient) went in as well. As a side note, the fact that death, a non-physical entity, is cast into the lake of fire indicates that the lake of fire must be allegorical. Since it is allegorical for "death", it must also be allegorical for the disobedient. Supporting that is the fact that hell gets tossed in as well. Kind of hard to go to a hell that's been cast into a destructive fire.

Those not found in a book of life are logically the dead not the disobedient. You need to be alive to disobey anyone. You cannot disobey anyone if you are dead in the first place. Death to death would also be an annihilation of those who are already dead. But the dead are always annihilated in the process of changing into dust so there is nothing new about that.

Of course the fire is allegorical. It is as allegorical as the eternal fire in the kitchen from which you tell people to depart if they can't handle the fire.
The whole bible is allegorical. Dead people cannot disobey anyone. Spiritually dead people cannot disobey that which they don't believe exists. Can you disobey Mother Nature? Can you disobey Father Time? Can you disobey fairies? Of course not. Do you think Mother Nature or Father Time will torture anyone for all eternity for not believing in them? Of course not.
Hell is nothing but the grave. Even graves disintegrate over time and leave no evidence that anyone was buried there.

So what about Hebrews 9:27? It's correct. Note that it says, '...but after this the judgment'. Before the judgment, we die and rot just once. It's after the judgment that the disobedient get zapped with the second death.

Well according to Psalm 7:11 Judgment day is every day.
"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
and
according to John 12:31 the judgment of the world was the day Jesus died on the cross.
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Gods judgment is always in the eternal NOW which is every day for all eternity.

Those who judge themselves are not judged.
1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

I judged myself as a stupid fool long ago for believing in invisible characters.
My judgment of myself stands for ever. I also judge others in the same way I judged myself.

I also judge myself innocent of any sins against any invisible supernatural characters including fairies, Mother Nature, Father Time, Santa, and Father God.

It is impossible to sin against invisible characters who do not reveal themselves to you when you ask them to reveal themselves to you because you need visible proof that they exist.

Mother Nature, Father Time and Father God simply revealed to me that they were personifications of LIFE. They did it by encouraging me to use my logic and common sense. That encouragement came through humans. The real ones which can be seen and heard in reality.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/16/2014 2:36:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:14:10 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:12:14 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:04:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:20:51 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:00:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/15/2014 10:37:07 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 6:25:43 PM, jodybirdy wrote:

There is a common myth that cats have nine lives. My cat died once. I was disappointed. Joking!


Well I die daily and so does Christ according to the bible. No joke.
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

When people reject Truth, they are crucifying it in their hearts and minds.


I'm not sure about a second death. I think it can be interpreted in many ways. It seems far fetched to me, but then most things in Revelations are a little far out there.

When you interpret it according to the way Revelation explains it there is no problem.
Rev 20:14 is the only scripture which defines what it is.
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

How else can you interpret that if you don't interpret it as a death to death itself?
I would like to hear your interpretation of it. You make me curious by saying it can be interpreted in many ways. Please give me a few examples of the many ways I have given you my interpretation. I can see no other way to interpret it logically. Enlighten me if you can.

The evidence of billions of years of existence is that you live once and die.
End of story.

Wrong, since you are just energy and energy cannot die. It cannot be created or destroyed.
Death is therefore just a word we use to describe a change of form.
You misunderstand what I wrote and I kept it simple.

I didn't misunderstand you at all. I know you are talking about the human body from an average atheists point of view. You were not even thinking about the concept of being an indestructible mass of energy. I decided to give you something to think about.
Maybe now you will believe in eternal life. Do you believe you are energy and will always exist as energy? ;-)

I drink, therefore I am.
Will I drink when I'm dead?

Energy does what and therefore exists?
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/16/2014 12:52:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:55:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/15/2014 11:48:45 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

True, "Death" being cast into the lake of fire is indeed the death of "Death", which is supported by 1 Cor. 15:26. 'The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death'. (See also vs 54 and 2 Tim. 1:10.)

But that doesn't negate the second death of "the disobedient". In John 8:51 we read: '...if a man keep my saying, he shall never see death'. (See also John 5:24; 11:26.) I'm pretty sure you can't show me folks up to 2000 years old, who keep His saying, walking about. They all saw the kind of death that leaves behind rotting corpses. The argument can be made that Christ is simply saying that no one can keep his saying, but that makes no sense. Why ask a man to keep his saying if it cannot be done? So we must deduce that a second death is being spoken of here.


Jesus was obviously talking about "spiritual death" not physical death. The Pharisees also thought he was mad for saying that.
John 5:52-53 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The "second death" is a spiritual death to "death". It is an enlightenment, an awakening from "spiritual sleep" which is also called "death".
Death and sleep are often used synonymously in the bible. ( John 11:11-14, Matt 9:23-26 )

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Those who live in the light/ life will never live in darkness/death.

I realize that Christ was speaking of a spiritual death, but you and I seem to be interpreting that a bit differently.

Death is not just synonymous with sleep, it can also be synonymous with sin, as it is in Eph. 5:14.

Romans 8:10 "...the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

1 Tim. 5:6 "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.


If you look at Rev. 20:14, and the following verse, you can see that death and hell are not the only things cast into the fire. Those not found in the book of life, (the disobedient) went in as well. As a side note, the fact that death, a non-physical entity, is cast into the lake of fire indicates that the lake of fire must be allegorical. Since it is allegorical for "death", it must also be allegorical for the disobedient. Supporting that is the fact that hell gets tossed in as well. Kind of hard to go to a hell that's been cast into a destructive fire.

Those not found in a book of life are logically the dead not the disobedient. You need to be alive to disobey anyone. You cannot disobey anyone if you are dead in the first place. Death to death would also be an annihilation of those who are already dead. But the dead are always annihilated in the process of changing into dust so there is nothing new about that.

Of course the fire is allegorical. It is as allegorical as the eternal fire in the kitchen from which you tell people to depart if they can't handle the fire.
The whole bible is allegorical. Dead people cannot disobey anyone. Spiritually dead people cannot disobey that which they don't believe exists. Can you disobey Mother Nature? Can you disobey Father Time? Can you disobey fairies? Of course not. Do you think Mother Nature or Father Time will torture anyone for all eternity for not believing in them? Of course not.
Hell is nothing but the grave. Even graves disintegrate over time and leave no evidence that anyone was buried there.

Those not found in the Book of Life are indeed the disobedient:

Psalms 69:27-28 "Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

And why preach to the dead if they can't be disobedient:

1 Peter 4:5-6 "Who shall give account unto him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


So what about Hebrews 9:27? It's correct. Note that it says, '...but after this the judgment'. Before the judgment, we die and rot just once. It's after the judgment that the disobedient get zapped with the second death.

Well according to Psalm 7:11 Judgment day is every day.
"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
and
according to John 12:31 the judgment of the world was the day Jesus died on the cross.
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Gods judgment is always in the eternal NOW which is every day for all eternity.

Those who judge themselves are not judged.
1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

I judged myself as a stupid fool long ago for believing in invisible characters.
My judgment of myself stands for ever. I also judge others in the same way I judged myself.

I also judge myself innocent of any sins against any invisible supernatural characters including fairies, Mother Nature, Father Time, Santa, and Father God.

It is impossible to sin against invisible characters who do not reveal themselves to you when you ask them to reveal themselves to you because you need visible proof that they exist.

Mother Nature, Father Time and Father God simply revealed to me that they were personifications of LIFE. They did it by encouraging me to use my logic and common sense. That encouragement came through humans. The real ones which can be seen and heard in reality.

That judgments occur daily doesn't change the fact that there is a final judgment. How can there be a final judgment if it is not preceded by other judgments?

Of course.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/16/2014 12:58:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

The first death is a symbolic death that means we're all born spiritually dead in this world. The second death is the actual death of our bodies. Most people will remain spiritually dead before their body dies in this world. The one's who learn what the first death means are us saints who are used to testify to the knowledge of God. This invisible knowledge of God teaches us about everything that God wants us to know during this first age.
bornofgod
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12/16/2014 1:04:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 5:42:49 PM, Skyangel wrote:
As for the spiritually living, you need to understand you have already been resurrected from the dead and stop believing the fantasy about your body one day being resurrected from the dead because it will never be physically resurrected. Your body returns to dust and remains dust.

Gen 3:9
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We saints learn who we are in God during this first age before our bodies are killed for our testimonies. But we know for a fact that we'll awaken in our new bodies in Paradise and never understand what death means. That's because we won't remember living in this first age.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

The spiritually blind ( the dead ) cannot understand this prophecy.
12_13
Posts: 1,361
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12/16/2014 2:32:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

I think it is good to notice also what Jesus said:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28-31
Skyangel
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12/16/2014 3:23:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:52:14 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:55:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Jesus was obviously talking about "spiritual death" not physical death. The Pharisees also thought he was mad for saying that.
John 5:52-53 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
The "second death" is a spiritual death to "death". It is an enlightenment, an awakening from "spiritual sleep" which is also called "death".
Death and sleep are often used synonymously in the bible. ( John 11:11-14, Matt 9:23-26 )

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Those who live in the light/ life will never live in darkness/death.

I realize that Christ was speaking of a spiritual death, but you and I seem to be interpreting that a bit differently.

Death is not just synonymous with sleep, it can also be synonymous with sin, as it is in Eph. 5:14.

Romans 8:10 "...the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."

1 Tim. 5:6 "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

Yes death is also synonymous with sin and also with darkness.
However, apparently sinners cannot cease from sin according to 2 Peter 2:14 which is also talking about believers not unbelievers. It is referring to false prophets who preach false doctrines. You find those people in religions. They are as hypocritical and evil as the Pharisees in the bible story were. They put on a righteous outward appearance and use seductive sweet words to deceive people into following their false doctrines.
They seduce unbelievers to become believers and teach the unbelievers their false doctrines so the unbelievers become religious sinners instead of nonreligious sinners and also progress to becoming false prophets themselves by teaching the same false doctrines they were taught in the first place.
Changing from an unbelieving sinner to a religious sinner is not being saved from sin. It is just changing the sin in which you indulge. It is no different to changing the drug you take and then claiming to be drug free.

If you look at Rev. 20:14, and the following verse, you can see that death and hell are not the only things cast into the fire. Those not found in the book of life, (the disobedient) went in as well. As a side note, the fact that death, a non-physical entity, is cast into the lake of fire indicates that the lake of fire must be allegorical. Since it is allegorical for "death", it must also be allegorical for the disobedient. Supporting that is the fact that hell gets tossed in as well. Kind of hard to go to a hell that's been cast into a destructive fire.

Those not found in a book of life are logically the dead not the disobedient. You need to be alive to disobey anyone. You cannot disobey anyone if you are dead in the first place. Death to death would also be an annihilation of those who are already dead. But the dead are always annihilated in the process of changing into dust so there is nothing new about that.

Of course the fire is allegorical. It is as allegorical as the eternal fire in the kitchen from which you tell people to depart if they can't handle the fire.
The whole bible is allegorical. Dead people cannot disobey anyone. Spiritually dead people cannot disobey that which they don't believe exists. Can you disobey Mother Nature? Can you disobey Father Time? Can you disobey fairies? Of course not. Do you think Mother Nature or Father Time will torture anyone for all eternity for not believing in them? Of course not.
Hell is nothing but the grave. Even graves disintegrate over time and leave no evidence that anyone was buried there.

Those not found in the Book of Life are indeed the disobedient:

Disobedient to whom?
Take a look at Rom 7:7-25 where Paul is saying he does what he does not want to do and does not do what he does want to do. Even when he is doing right he is still doing wrong because the sin remains in him and be blames the sin within him for his wrong doings. He is basically saying the flesh cannot cease from sin. Then the next chapter teaches that the carnal mind is enmity against God and to be carnally minded is death. Anyone who lives and walks in the flesh cannot please God.

Ultimately the flesh is incapable of doing anything right yet the spirit is incapable of doing anything wrong.
Humans are always doing what they think is right yet it is always wrong and always sinning against something or someone no matter what they do.
Evil disobeys goodness and goodness disobeys evil. Therefore it makes no difference what you do, you are disobeying something or someone and that makes you disobedient at all times whether you want to be disobedient or not.

Go to Gal 5:16-18.. Notice the Spirit wars against the flesh and vice versa. They are at enmity against each other. This is what creates that inner conflict. The spirit sins against the flesh and the flesh sins against the spirit so it makes no difference what you do, you are ultimately still sinning. Therefore you need to decide which sin to choose. Do you live a life sinning against the flesh/ devil/ evil within or do you live a life sinning against the spirit/ God/ Goodness within ? Both good and evil are attitudes within all humans.
Whether our actions are good or evil depends on our motives. The very same action can be perceived as both good and evil by those who judge us depending on whether they can see our heart motives or not.

All people are two part beings made up of both flesh and spirit, the carnal and the spiritual.
We are not two separate people fighting with each other. The flesh is the devil/ evil within which fights against the spirit which is God/ goodness within. The flesh disobeys the spirit and the spirit also disobeys the flesh so there is disobedience on both sides. One is justified disobedience and the other is not. One is a justified sin and the other is not. The justified one is in the book of life and the other is not. It is not about sending any person to hell. It is about people overcoming their own inner bad attitudes and putting them to death by disobeying and violating the negatives within.

The "overcomers" are all in the book of life. They are not people but attitudes/ spirits within people. The attitude of love overcomes the attitude of hate etc. If hate within you overcomes love within you then hate lives and love dies. Understand? All people die physically in spite of what they believe or don't believe. All attitudes/ spirits within people live on in other humans. Attitudes are passed down through culture, religion, tradition, circumstances and basically by experiencing life in general. All opposite attitudes exist at all times just like darkness and light exist together at all times. They are simply opposite sides of the same coin and both needed in the bigger picture.

Our bodies are nothing but "tents, temples, houses." for the attitudes within. The body perishes but the spirit/ attitude lives forever and that applies to both good and evil spirits/ attitudes.

Those "spirits" can also be seen as positive and negative energies. They exist together like on a magnet to make the whole magnet.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,072
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12/16/2014 3:41:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You seem to be critical of Christianity yet not an atheist, and you also seem to quote the Bible often.
In the words of George Takei from Psych, "I am very confused."
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Skyangel
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12/16/2014 3:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:52:14 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:55:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Psalms 69:27-28 "Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Apply that to your own negative attitudes instead of applying it to other people.

And why preach to the dead if they can't be disobedient:

There is no point in preaching to the physically dead. It does no more good than preaching to corpses in a cemetery. The same applies to spiritually dead because they won't listen anyway. No amount of preaching has any affect on them.
Scripture was not written to the dead . It was written to saints. It was written to the living who had been raised from the dead spiritually. It is to teach them to not go back to their dead state, the state of ignorance, blindness, deafness and lack of understanding. It is written to encourage the carnal minded babies to grow up, not remain carnally mined, not be deceived by false prophets, false doctrines, seducing words, etc.

1 Peter 4:5-6 "Who shall give account unto him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead part of mankind is the flesh within them. The living part of mankind is the spirit within them.
The flesh will always die. The spirit/attitudes/energy lasts forever. Humans are accountable to other humans and also to their own conscience. We all judge ourselves through our own conscience and we also judge others in the same way we judge ourselves. It is an automatic subconscious process.

So what about Hebrews 9:27? It's correct. Note that it says, '...but after this the judgment'. Before the judgment, we die and rot just once. It's after the judgment that the disobedient get zapped with the second death.

Well according to Psalm 7:11 Judgment day is every day.
"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
and
according to John 12:31 the judgment of the world was the day Jesus died on the cross.
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Gods judgment is always in the eternal NOW which is every day for all eternity.

Those who judge themselves are not judged.
1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

I judged myself as a stupid fool long ago for believing in invisible characters.
My judgment of myself stands for ever. I also judge others in the same way I judged myself.

I also judge myself innocent of any sins against any invisible supernatural characters including fairies, Mother Nature, Father Time, Santa, and Father God.

It is impossible to sin against invisible characters who do not reveal themselves to you when you ask them to reveal themselves to you because you need visible proof that they exist.

Mother Nature, Father Time and Father God simply revealed to me that they were personifications of LIFE. They did it by encouraging me to use my logic and common sense. That encouragement came through humans. The real ones which can be seen and heard in reality.

That judgments occur daily doesn't change the fact that there is a final judgment. How can there be a final judgment if it is not preceded by other judgments?

Logically if Gods judgment is every day for all eternity, any final judgment is the judgment you make of yourself on the day you die physically. After that you will no longer be able to judge yourself or anyone else ever again.

In the end your own words judge you.
Matt 12:27 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

God the Father does not judge you. John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jesus does not judge you : John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

YOU judge you. Matt 12:27 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

So how do you judge yourself?
You judge yourself in the same way as you judge others. If you condemn them you also condemn yourself.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Matt 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

In the end everyone reaps what they sow. Condemn others to hell and you condemn yourself to hell.
Skyangel
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12/16/2014 4:01:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:58:02 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

The first death is a symbolic death that means we're all born spiritually dead in this world. The second death is the actual death of our bodies. Most people will remain spiritually dead before their body dies in this world. The one's who learn what the first death means are us saints who are used to testify to the knowledge of God. This invisible knowledge of God teaches us about everything that God wants us to know during this first age.

Ok Brad, apply that to Adam and Eve. They were born or created spiritually dead, lacking the knowledge of God. They were physically alive so eating from that " one tree " in the midst of the garden would cause a death to that spiritual death which would result in spiritual life. It would also cause an eventual death to their physical bodies which would make them mortal instead of having immortal physical bodies.
It ultimately made them both mortal and immortal just like God.
All humans are born spiritually dead, ignorant, blind, in the sense of lacking any knowledge and understanding. Knowledge, understanding, wisdom is gained through physical life and maturity not through physical death.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/16/2014 4:12:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 1:04:46 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:42:49 PM, Skyangel wrote:
As for the spiritually living, you need to understand you have already been resurrected from the dead and stop believing the fantasy about your body one day being resurrected from the dead because it will never be physically resurrected. Your body returns to dust and remains dust.

Gen 3:9
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We saints learn who we are in God during this first age before our bodies are killed for our testimonies. But we know for a fact that we'll awaken in our new bodies in Paradise and never understand what death means. That's because we won't remember living in this first age.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

The spiritually blind ( the dead ) cannot understand this prophecy.

Then you are spiritually dead and blind Brad since you obviously don't understand it. All you do is quote it like a parrot and you don't even make any effort to explain it. You are like a baby who goes around telling other babies that you understand something that they don't because you are so special and they are not.

You are not going to awaken any place after you body dies. You will be dead and know nothing.
If you awaken spiritually you need to awaken spiritually while you are alive in your body.
If you don't understand what death means then you are not awake but still sleeping and ignorant about life. Life includes death and if you know nothing about death you also know nothing about life.

Any "new heavens and new earth" are being formed all the time as the old is constantly passing away and being replaced by the "new" It is the same as time being "new" every morning as the old time has passed away with yesterday. It is a process which is happening in front of our eyes. You can see it happening when you are awake. That process is an eternal cycle.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/16/2014 4:19:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 2:32:11 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

I think it is good to notice also what Jesus said:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28-31

All physical bodies die regardless of whether they sin or not. You only need to look at plants and animals dying to understand that concept is the truth.
When it comes to spiritual things like good and bad attitudes, ignorance and knowledge, darkness and light, You have the aspect of light destroying darkness but you also have the aspect of light creating darkness.
You cannot have death to death/darkness unless the light causes the death. That process makes light a destroyer as well as a creator.
Open your eyes and see the truth in that concept.

Light must destroy the old( darkness) in order to replace it with the new ( light).
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/16/2014 4:33:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 3:49:57 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:52:14 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:55:43 AM, Skyangel wrote:

Psalms 69:27-28 "Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Apply that to your own negative attitudes instead of applying it to other people.

And why preach to the dead if they can't be disobedient:

There is no point in preaching to the physically dead. It does no more good than preaching to corpses in a cemetery. The same applies to spiritually dead because they won't listen anyway. No amount of preaching has any affect on them.
Scripture was not written to the dead . It was written to saints. It was written to the living who had been raised from the dead spiritually. It is to teach them to not go back to their dead state, the state of ignorance, blindness, deafness and lack of understanding. It is written to encourage the carnal minded babies to grow up, not remain carnally mined, not be deceived by false prophets, false doctrines, seducing words, etc.


1 Peter 4:5-6 "Who shall give account unto him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The dead part of mankind is the flesh within them. The living part of mankind is the spirit within them.
The flesh will always die. The spirit/attitudes/energy lasts forever. Humans are accountable to other humans and also to their own conscience. We all judge ourselves through our own conscience and we also judge others in the same way we judge ourselves. It is an automatic subconscious process.


So what about Hebrews 9:27? It's correct. Note that it says, '...but after this the judgment'. Before the judgment, we die and rot just once. It's after the judgment that the disobedient get zapped with the second death.

Well according to Psalm 7:11 Judgment day is every day.
"God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day."
and
according to John 12:31 the judgment of the world was the day Jesus died on the cross.
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

Gods judgment is always in the eternal NOW which is every day for all eternity.

Those who judge themselves are not judged.
1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

I judged myself as a stupid fool long ago for believing in invisible characters.
My judgment of myself stands for ever. I also judge others in the same way I judged myself.

I also judge myself innocent of any sins against any invisible supernatural characters including fairies, Mother Nature, Father Time, Santa, and Father God.

It is impossible to sin against invisible characters who do not reveal themselves to you when you ask them to reveal themselves to you because you need visible proof that they exist.

Mother Nature, Father Time and Father God simply revealed to me that they were personifications of LIFE. They did it by encouraging me to use my logic and common sense. That encouragement came through humans. The real ones which can be seen and heard in reality.

That judgments occur daily doesn't change the fact that there is a final judgment. How can there be a final judgment if it is not preceded by other judgments?

Logically if Gods judgment is every day for all eternity, any final judgment is the judgment you make of yourself on the day you die physically. After that you will no longer be able to judge yourself or anyone else ever again.

In the end your own words judge you.
Matt 12:27 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


God the Father does not judge you. John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Jesus does not judge you : John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

YOU judge you. Matt 12:27 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

So how do you judge yourself?
You judge yourself in the same way as you judge others. If you condemn them you also condemn yourself.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Matt 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

In the end everyone reaps what they sow. Condemn others to hell and you condemn yourself to hell.

Are you, by any chance, related to bornofgod? You ramble on and on about the Bible saying what you want it to say, and about religion being what you want it to be, without making a great deal of sense. You speak of logic but show no evidence of it.

All those false prophets, gee, I wonder if that means there are any true ones. Not that you would agree with them.

Be happy in this religion you have made for yourself. How many members does it have so far?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/16/2014 7:24:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 4:01:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:58:02 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

The first death is a symbolic death that means we're all born spiritually dead in this world. The second death is the actual death of our bodies. Most people will remain spiritually dead before their body dies in this world. The one's who learn what the first death means are us saints who are used to testify to the knowledge of God. This invisible knowledge of God teaches us about everything that God wants us to know during this first age.

Ok Brad, apply that to Adam and Eve. They were born or created spiritually dead, lacking the knowledge of God. They were physically alive so eating from that " one tree " in the midst of the garden would cause a death to that spiritual death which would result in spiritual life. It would also cause an eventual death to their physical bodies which would make them mortal instead of having immortal physical bodies.
It ultimately made them both mortal and immortal just like God.
All humans are born spiritually dead, ignorant, blind, in the sense of lacking any knowledge and understanding. Knowledge, understanding, wisdom is gained through physical life and maturity not through physical death.

Adam and Eve did not know that their bodies were only illusions called flesh within a dream. Without the knowledge of God to know how God created them, they would remain deceived by what they observed in this world. That means the "tree of life" was hidden from them. The tree of life is the invisible creation of God which we know as invisible vibrations today.

So the first death means everyone who was born into this world thought this world was real. Without God using His prophets and us saints to teach us who we are and how He created us, we would still believe we are real. We saints are the only ones who know for sure who we are ( spiritually alive ). God's chosen believers don't possess the knowledge of God that us saints and prophets do but by listening to us and believing what we say, they can learn that the world ( universe ) isn't real at all.

You have no knowledge of God to understand any of the prophecies. Your interpretations are what deceives anyone who listens to you.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/16/2014 7:28:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 4:12:54 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 1:04:46 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/15/2014 5:42:49 PM, Skyangel wrote:
As for the spiritually living, you need to understand you have already been resurrected from the dead and stop believing the fantasy about your body one day being resurrected from the dead because it will never be physically resurrected. Your body returns to dust and remains dust.

Gen 3:9
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

We saints learn who we are in God during this first age before our bodies are killed for our testimonies. But we know for a fact that we'll awaken in our new bodies in Paradise and never understand what death means. That's because we won't remember living in this first age.

Isaiah 65
16: So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hid from my eyes.
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

The spiritually blind ( the dead ) cannot understand this prophecy.

Then you are spiritually dead and blind Brad since you obviously don't understand it. All you do is quote it like a parrot and you don't even make any effort to explain it. You are like a baby who goes around telling other babies that you understand something that they don't because you are so special and they are not.

You are not going to awaken any place after you body dies. You will be dead and know nothing.
If you awaken spiritually you need to awaken spiritually while you are alive in your body.
If you don't understand what death means then you are not awake but still sleeping and ignorant about life. Life includes death and if you know nothing about death you also know nothing about life.


Any "new heavens and new earth" are being formed all the time as the old is constantly passing away and being replaced by the "new" It is the same as time being "new" every morning as the old time has passed away with yesterday. It is a process which is happening in front of our eyes. You can see it happening when you are awake. That process is an eternal cycle.

I've been explaining who we are in God ever since I started in this forum 1 1/2 years ago. You antichrists and false prophets can't understand anything we saints write or speak so you reject God's teachings through our testimonies.
Gentorev
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12/16/2014 8:15:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 5:39:47 PM, Skyangel wrote:
The book of Revelation mentions a second death.

Many believers seem to think any implied "first death" is a physical death and any "second death" is a spiritual death and a punishment to all who do not believe in mythical characters.
They seem to believe unbelieving souls are tortured for all eternity for not believing invisible supernatural characters exist. They also call it hell.

However, scripture says man can only die once.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If man can only die once any "second death" has nothing to with physical or spiritual death.

Take a closer look at Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It is saying the "second death" is death to death itself. If you can no longer die you must already be dead. Dead people cannot die again since "It is appointed to man ONCE to die".

Man is a physical being made up of the universal elements, the disembodied mind=spirit, is not "MAN."

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is made up from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, from the wave particles to the subatomic particles that make up the atoms which are the building blocks of the molecules from which the universal body is created. It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE that all information = SPIRIT is gathered.

"YOU" the mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and pre-human, has been gathered in the evolution of whatever was in the beginning to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil to the inner most sanctuary of its earthly tabernacle=tent, which is your body.

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and "YOU" who are spirit [Gathered information] in this particular life cycle, could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality = "CONTROLLING GODHEAD" to that body.

When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body: "skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc," has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU = the mind=spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force=soul, from which it will be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity. Unless of course, the information=spirit that is "YOU" is divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul----------"For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit."