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Biblical prophecy is impossible

dee-em
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12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.
ethang5
Posts: 4,115
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12/16/2014 9:55:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 2:14:38 AM, dee-em wrote:

By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory.

I guess we should take this on faith? Can you explain how God's knowledge of the future destroys free will? I bet you cannot.

It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

It means no such thing. if you disagree, show us how.

Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Sorry, but we'll wait for you to support your wild claims before we crown you king. That ok?

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

You are confused. Can you explain what "objectively random" mean? I doubt you can. Do you think Quantum uncertainty is talking about nature or about our knowledge of nature?

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

I'm always amazed that people who know nothing about science are willing to go public with their ignorance. All you have mentioned here are limitations of our (human) knowledge, not qualities inherent in nature. And then to add insult to injury, you make the illogical leap in assuming God suffers under the same limitations.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

What about a prophesy that you would die on your 50th birthday. Could you change that? You assume God's purpose for prophesy is to make "people" believe it? Why would you assume that?

What if the prophesy of the plane crash is made only to a small tribe in the amazon where the plane will come down. Would that change the behavior of the people about to take the flight?

What about the change in peoples behavior did not change the result of the prophesy? Isn't that possible? Or that the prophesy itself causes behavior which ensures the prophesy?

Your thought process on this point needs more time in the oven. It's half baked.

Well, it seems as though Christians agree. Let's hear no more talk of Biblical prophecy.

They do agree. Me-thinks you would be surprised at what they agree on.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/16/2014 10:34:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

Everything we do, say, hear, taste, smell, touch and feel emotionally was planned, created and formed by our invisible Creator. All the prophecies that He had His prophets write are about future events. The prophecies about all the flesh perishing, the end of this age and the New Heaven and Earth haven't been fulfilled yet. So be patient and wait until your body dies, whether it dies during the end of this age destruction or before.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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12/16/2014 2:26:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

The reason why things have been said for disciples of Jesus in advance is that they wouldn"t be scared and that they would be prepared for the things that will happen.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 2:26:14 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

The reason why things have been said for disciples of Jesus in advance is that they wouldn"t be scared and that they would be prepared for the things that will happen.

How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy? I'm not interested in why Jesus allegedly prophesied, but in the consequences and ramifications if such prophesy were possible.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/16/2014 7:30:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

People under hypnosis or in a deep state of meditation, descend deep into their own being, mentally travelling along the genetic thread of life and are able to mentally merge with the mind of one of their ancient ancestors of the past, where they can experience the life and times of that living ancestor.

Those people of the present, who appear to be in a comatose state have been known to speak in the ancient tongue of their ancestor with whose mind they are merged, in a language that they could not have possibly known or understood. While the living ancestors (Prophets) of their past, appear to babble incomprehensible rubbish as they try to put form and terminology to the visions that they are experiencing from the future minds of their descendants.

When attempting to describe a vision that they had received of a Black Hawk Helicopter, they Speak of something that looks like a grasshopper that spits out fire and death, with wings above its head that sound like the roar of a great waterfall as they move.

The Son of Man, who is born from the body of mankind in our far and distant future, is able to traverse not only space but also time, in that he can descend to the very beginning, before this world began. He know everything that you will do, because you have done it before he was born. Your free will remains.

Those who have never received a mental visitation from the Son of Man, who is our God, will not believe or understand: Those who have, could never convince the unbelievers.

Come travel with me on a journey through time
Not in some capsule but in our own minds
We"ll visit lands in times long gone
And sing with our fathers their ancient songs
To the innermost sanctuary will we descend
To that single cell from which your body began
In the Holy of Holies where all are one
Where all of space and time is joined
We"ll mingle there with other minds
From other lands in other times
Minds of the past who seem dead and gone
And minds of the future which are yet unborn
For they in their times whether here on this world
Or some distant planet to which they"ve been lured
Will enter their innermost sanctuary too
And there perhaps they might merge with you
Ah! To travel through space in the wink of an eye
Merged----- with a descendant from some world way up high
And if you think this is madness then madness it be
But come my mad brothers, come follow me!.......................Gentorev.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/16/2014 8:53:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 7:30:40 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

People under hypnosis or in a deep state of meditation, descend deep into their own being, mentally travelling along the genetic thread of life and are able to mentally merge with the mind of one of their ancient ancestors of the past, where they can experience the life and times of that living ancestor.

The genetic thread of life, eh? I guess that thread stays when the umbilical cord is cut. Lol.

Those people of the present, who appear to be in a comatose state have been known to speak in the ancient tongue of their ancestor with whose mind they are merged, in a language that they could not have possibly known or understood. While the living ancestors (Prophets) of their past, appear to babble incomprehensible rubbish as they try to put form and terminology to the visions that they are experiencing from the future minds of their descendants.

Or they could be spouting complete nonsense as has been proved repeatedly.

When attempting to describe a vision that they had received of a Black Hawk Helicopter, they Speak of something that looks like a grasshopper that spits out fire and death, with wings above its head that sound like the roar of a great waterfall as they move.

The magic mushrooms were pretty good in those days. I agree.

The Son of Man, who is born from the body of mankind in our far and distant future, is able to traverse not only space but also time, in that he can descend to the very beginning, before this world began. He know everything that you will do, because you have done it before he was born. Your free will remains.

Except that the future is known with complete certainty which means free will is an illusion.

Those who have never received a mental visitation from the Son of Man, who is our God, will not believe or understand: Those who have, could never convince the unbelievers.

How convenient, a totally unfalsifiable phenomenon. Lol.

Come travel with me on a journey through time
Not in some capsule but in our own minds
We"ll visit lands in times long gone
And sing with our fathers their ancient songs
To the innermost sanctuary will we descend
To that single cell from which your body began
In the Holy of Holies where all are one
Where all of space and time is joined
We"ll mingle there with other minds
From other lands in other times
Minds of the past who seem dead and gone
And minds of the future which are yet unborn
For they in their times whether here on this world
Or some distant planet to which they"ve been lured
Will enter their innermost sanctuary too
And there perhaps they might merge with you
Ah! To travel through space in the wink of an eye
Merged----- with a descendant from some world way up high
And if you think this is madness then madness it be
But come my mad brothers, come follow me!.......................Gentorev.

Debate by poetry. That's new. I was about to say it was pretty good and then I saw it was plagiarized from here:
http://www.religionforums.org...
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/16/2014 9:17:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Gentorev.............. People under hypnosis or in a deep state of meditation, descend deep into their own being, mentally travelling along the genetic thread of life and are able to mentally merge with the mind of one of their ancient ancestors of the past, where they can experience the life and times of that living ancestor.

Those people of the present, who appear to be in a comatose state have been known to speak in the ancient tongue of their ancestor with whose mind they are merged, in a language that they could not have possibly known or understood. While the living ancestors (Prophets) of their past, appear to babble incomprehensible rubbish as they try to put form and terminology to the visions that they are experiencing from the future minds of their descendants.

When attempting to describe a vision that they had received of a Black Hawk Helicopter, they Speak of something that looks like a grasshopper that spits out fire and death, with wings above its head that sound like the roar of a great waterfall as they move.

The Son of Man, who is born from the body of mankind in our far and distant future, is able to traverse not only space but also time, in that he can descend to the very beginning, before this world began. He know everything that you will do, because you have done it before he was born. Your free will remains.

Those who have never received a mental visitation from the Son of Man, who is our God, will not believe or understand: Those who have, could never convince the unbelievers.

Come travel with me on a journey through time
Not in some capsule but in our own minds
We"ll visit lands in times long gone
And sing with our fathers their ancient songs
To the innermost sanctuary will we descend
To that single cell from which your body began
In the Holy of Holies where all are one
Where all of space and time is joined
We"ll mingle there with other minds
From other lands in other times
Minds of the past who seem dead and gone
And minds of the future which are yet unborn
For they in their times whether here on this world
Or some distant planet to which they"ve been lured
Will enter their innermost sanctuary too
And there perhaps they might merge with you
Ah! To travel through space in the wink of an eye
Merged----- with a descendant from some world way up high
And if you think this is madness then madness it be
But come my mad brothers, come follow me!.......................Gentorev.

dee-em wrote.......... Debate by poetry. That's new. I was about to say it was pretty good and then I saw it was plagiarized from here:
http://www.religionforums.org...

As I have visited many religious forums under the user names of S-word, The Tongue and Gentorev, it is impossible to plagiarize ones own material, but thank you for stating that my post was very good.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/16/2014 10:08:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:55:42 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 2:14:38 AM, dee-em wrote:

By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory.

I guess we should take this on faith? Can you explain how God's knowledge of the future destroys free will? I bet you cannot.

I don't need to reinvent the wheel. John Loftus has already done it. Go and argue it out with him.
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com.au...

It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

It means no such thing. if you disagree, show us how.

It's self-evident.

Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Sorry, but we'll wait for you to support your wild claims before we crown you king. That ok?

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

You are confused. Can you explain what "objectively random" mean? I doubt you can. Do you think Quantum uncertainty is talking about nature or about our knowledge of nature?

I can explain but that is not the issue. Are you denying that Quantum Mechanics is a highly successful scientific theory? If not, do you have any problem with anything I wrote above?

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

I'm always amazed that people who know nothing about science are willing to go public with their ignorance. All you have mentioned here are limitations of our (human) knowledge, not qualities inherent in nature. And then to add insult to injury, you make the illogical leap in assuming God suffers under the same limitations.

Quantum mechanics tells us we can never perfectly measure initial starting conditions, not just in practice but in principle. Therefore any chaotic system is unpredictable, not because of human limitations but because of inherent quantum uncertainty. God cannot do what is impossible, just as he can't make a rock he can't lift.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

What about a prophesy that you would die on your 50th birthday. Could you change that?

God tells you you will die at the age of 50. As 50 approaches, you make a will, create a bucket list and start on it, travel, make arrangements for your family, etc. etc. Your knowledge of a future event has altered your behaviour. Chaos theory tells us that your life will unfold in a different way than without that knowledge, ie. knowing the future immediately changes it. Will you still die at 50 in an alternate world or at 49 or 51 depending on life style changes? Who knows? Hence paradox.

You assume God's purpose for prophesy is to make "people" believe it? Why would you assume that?

I assume nothing.

What if the prophesy of the plane crash is made only to a small tribe in the amazon where the plane will come down. Would that change the behavior of the people about to take the flight?

Probably not. So what?

What about the change in peoples behavior did not change the result of the prophesy? Isn't that possible? Or that the prophesy itself causes behavior which ensures the prophesy?

Then it's not prophesy. It's manipulation.

Your thought process on this point needs more time in the oven. It's half baked.

Well, it seems as though Christians agree. Let's hear no more talk of Biblical prophecy.

They do agree. Me-thinks you would be surprised at what they agree on.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/17/2014 2:41:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
dee-em wrote............It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

Gentorev Replies............. "The Son of Man" who is, according to our concept of one directional time, still in the developing process within the body of mankind. When the umbilical cord is severed from the body of mankind in our far distant future, he is able to descend to the very beginning before this world began. And HE, the "MOST HIGH" to evolve within the Universe, knows everything that you had done in his past, and everything that you have and will do, is done according to your free will.

Mankind, who is Lord of Creatures, is the prototype and mother body in which is developing the Most High spirit/mind in creation; "The Son of Man" Lord of Spirits, the Most High and the supreme personality of Godhead to the living universal body.

HEIR TO THE THRONE
And now my friend come soar with me
To the outer limits of reality
This universe though wide it seems
Is but a shadow of our dreams

We are naught but knowledge in these tents
Refined through pain and punishment
We"re the hive of man, and beneath his rod
We are one, we"re the son of God

The past the present the future is He
He was, He is, and He will be
And heaven is but a point in time
To where the spirit in man must climb

Eventually when it"s there at last
And stands and gazes on it"s past
Then takes the throne prepared in heaven
All his past will be forgiven

I am who I am the die is cast
For I was created by my past
And we who we are this very day
Determines his future in every way

If my past were changed
Then who would I be?
One thing is for certain
I wouldn"t be me.................By Gentorev, who is the S-word, and Tongue.

The Tongue, which is the sharp two edged S-word of God, from Genesis to Revelation.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/17/2014 4:29:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 2:41:09 AM, Gentorev wrote:
dee-em wrote............It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

Gentorev Replies............. "The Son of Man" who is, according to our concept of one directional time, still in the developing process within the body of mankind. When the umbilical cord is severed from the body of mankind in our far distant future, he is able to descend to the very beginning before this world began. And HE, the "MOST HIGH" to evolve within the Universe, knows everything that you had done in his past, and everything that you have and will do, is done according to your free will.

Mankind, who is Lord of Creatures, is the prototype and mother body in which is developing the Most High spirit/mind in creation; "The Son of Man" Lord of Spirits, the Most High and the supreme personality of Godhead to the living universal body.

HEIR TO THE THRONE
And now my friend come soar with me
To the outer limits of reality
This universe though wide it seems
Is but a shadow of our dreams

We are naught but knowledge in these tents
Refined through pain and punishment
We"re the hive of man, and beneath his rod
We are one, we"re the son of God

The past the present the future is He
He was, He is, and He will be
And heaven is but a point in time
To where the spirit in man must climb

Eventually when it"s there at last
And stands and gazes on it"s past
Then takes the throne prepared in heaven
All his past will be forgiven

I am who I am the die is cast
For I was created by my past
And we who we are this very day
Determines his future in every way

If my past were changed
Then who would I be?
One thing is for certain
I wouldn"t be me.................By Gentorev, who is the S-word, and Tongue.

The Tongue, which is the sharp two edged S-word of God, from Genesis to Revelation.

Gentorev, I'm starting to get worried. Are you courting me? Lol.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox. And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/17/2014 3:27:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 4:29:04 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:41:09 AM, Gentorev wrote:
dee-em wrote............It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

Gentorev Replies............. "The Son of Man" who is, according to our concept of one directional time, still in the developing process within the body of mankind. When the umbilical cord is severed from the body of mankind in our far distant future, he is able to descend to the very beginning before this world began. And HE, the "MOST HIGH" to evolve within the Universe, knows everything that you had done in his past, and everything that you have and will do, is done according to your free will.

Mankind, who is Lord of Creatures, is the prototype and mother body in which is developing the Most High spirit/mind in creation; "The Son of Man" Lord of Spirits, the Most High and the supreme personality of Godhead to the living universal body.

HEIR TO THE THRONE
And now my friend come soar with me
To the outer limits of reality
This universe though wide it seems
Is but a shadow of our dreams

We are naught but knowledge in these tents
Refined through pain and punishment
We"re the hive of man, and beneath his rod
We are one, we"re the son of God

The past the present the future is He
He was, He is, and He will be
And heaven is but a point in time
To where the spirit in man must climb

Eventually when it"s there at last
And stands and gazes on it"s past
Then takes the throne prepared in heaven
All his past will be forgiven

I am who I am the die is cast
For I was created by my past
And we who we are this very day
Determines his future in every way

If my past were changed
Then who would I be?
One thing is for certain
I wouldn"t be me.................By Gentorev, who is the S-word, and Tongue.

The Tongue, which is the sharp two edged S-word of God, from Genesis to Revelation.

Gentorev, I'm starting to get worried. Are you courting me? Lol.

Matey, I've caught you lying, I've caught you swearing, I've caught you publicly displaying your ignorance to the scriptures, if fact I've caught you out in many things.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/17/2014 4:55:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 3:27:52 PM, Gentorev wrote:
<Gentorev quoting poetry to me>

Gentorev, I'm starting to get worried. Are you courting me? Lol.

Matey, I've caught you lying, I've caught you swearing, I've caught you publicly displaying your ignorance to the scriptures, if fact I've caught you out in many things.

ROFL.
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/17/2014 5:39:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.

SuperJesus to the rescue.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperJesus, leaping tall buildings with a single bound, bullets bouncing off his chest. He's smiting down nations. He's multiplying fishes and loves. There's nothing he can't do.

Pssst. SuperJesus. You know that the Israelis aren't Christians, right?
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/17/2014 9:03:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:39:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.

SuperJesus to the rescue.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperJesus, leaping tall buildings with a single bound, bullets bouncing off his chest. He's smiting down nations. He's multiplying fishes and loves. There's nothing he can't do.

Pssst. SuperJesus. You know that the Israelis aren't Christians, right?

And which Israelis are you referring to? The Jew who are from the tribe of Judah? The Reubenites? The Simeonites etc? Which of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the countries of the world are not christians?

Please to answer, you make me look so good when I rub your face in the ignorant cr#p that you spew out in these threads.
bulproof
Posts: 25,274
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12/17/2014 9:27:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 9:03:35 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:39:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.

SuperJesus to the rescue.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperJesus, leaping tall buildings with a single bound, bullets bouncing off his chest. He's smiting down nations. He's multiplying fishes and loves. There's nothing he can't do.

Pssst. SuperJesus. You know that the Israelis aren't Christians, right?

And which Israelis are you referring to? The Jew who are from the tribe of Judah? The Reubenites? The Simeonites etc? Which of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the countries of the world are not christians?

Please to answer, you make me look so good when I rub your face in the ignorant cr#p that you spew out in these threads.

Ummmmmmmmmmm WHAT?
Dem Jews is krisjuns, well I'll be buttered on a hornswaggle.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/17/2014 9:28:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 9:03:35 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:39:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.

SuperJesus to the rescue.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperJesus, leaping tall buildings with a single bound, bullets bouncing off his chest. He's smiting down nations. He's multiplying fishes and loves. There's nothing he can't do.

Pssst. SuperJesus. You know that the Israelis aren't Christians, right?

And which Israelis are you referring to? The Jew who are from the tribe of Judah? The Reubenites? The Simeonites etc? Which of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the countries of the world are not christians?

Please to answer, you make me look so good when I rub your face in the ignorant cr#p that you spew out in these threads.

The Israelis in Israel. The ones who are at risk of being driven into the sea. Those Israelis. Duh!
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
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12/17/2014 10:21:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 9:28:19 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:03:35 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:39:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.

SuperJesus to the rescue.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperJesus, leaping tall buildings with a single bound, bullets bouncing off his chest. He's smiting down nations. He's multiplying fishes and loves. There's nothing he can't do.

Pssst. SuperJesus. You know that the Israelis aren't Christians, right?

And which Israelis are you referring to? The Jew who are from the tribe of Judah? The Reubenites? The Simeonites etc? Which of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the countries of the world are not christians?

Please to answer, you make me look so good when I rub your face in the ignorant cr#p that you spew out in these threads.

The Israelis in Israel. The ones who are at risk of being driven into the sea. Those Israelis. Duh!

So then, just how many of those few Israelites that reside in the land of Israel, are you saying are not christians?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/18/2014 3:44:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 10:21:54 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:28:19 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:03:35 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:39:36 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:12:38 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:51:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 2:09:59 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:35:37 PM, dee-em wrote:
How does that address the paradoxical nature of prophecy?

I think there is no paradox, because prophesy is not received by those who could cause paradox.

What is the point of prophesy then? God showing off?

And the prophesy is also so cleverly made that even if evil person would receive it, he couldn"t change the end result and so cause paradox.

Sure, sure. Because good people would never alter their behaviour based on perfect knowledge of future events? That's just naive.

Most biblical OT prophecy, concerns the salvation of Israel by the hand of their Messiah, who is coming to destroy those nations that will surround Jerusalem, in their attempt to drive God's chosen people into the sea.

And all those who danced and rejoiced in the streets when the "Nine Eleven" attacks on the Twin Towers were announced, and all those in the countries around the world who support those who revelled in the destruction of those innocent lives, will weep, when those prophecies are fulfilled, and fulfilled they will be.

SuperJesus to the rescue.

Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's SuperJesus, leaping tall buildings with a single bound, bullets bouncing off his chest. He's smiting down nations. He's multiplying fishes and loves. There's nothing he can't do.

Pssst. SuperJesus. You know that the Israelis aren't Christians, right?

And which Israelis are you referring to? The Jew who are from the tribe of Judah? The Reubenites? The Simeonites etc? Which of the thirteen tribes of Israel that have been scattered throughout the countries of the world are not christians?

Please to answer, you make me look so good when I rub your face in the ignorant cr#p that you spew out in these threads.

The Israelis in Israel. The ones who are at risk of being driven into the sea. Those Israelis. Duh!

So then, just how many of those few Israelites that reside in the land of Israel, are you saying are not christians?

97.9%
ethang5
Posts: 4,115
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12/19/2014 9:37:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:08:46 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:55:42 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory.

I guess we should take this on faith? Can you explain how God's knowledge of the future destroys free will? I bet you cannot.

I don't need to reinvent the wheel. John Loftus has already done it. Go and argue it out with him.

You made the claim, so you should defend it. But, as I said, you can't. No surprise there.

It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

It means no such thing. if you disagree, show us how.

It's self-evident.

So is BoG's divinity to him, but....

Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Sorry, but we'll wait for you to support your wild claims before we crown you king. That ok?

Sorry, if the purpose of this post is just for an atheist circle jerk-off, then just continue to ignore the questions as you've been doing.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random.

You are confused. Can you explain what "objectively random" mean? I doubt you can. Do you think Quantum uncertainty is talking about nature or about our knowledge of nature?

I can explain but that is not the issue.

Then why did you mention it? Your record says your ability to explain is dubious.

Are you denying that Quantum Mechanics is a highly successful scientific theory?

Answer the question I asked instead of pretending I asked something else. If you don't know, it's ok to say so.

....do you have any problem with anything I wrote above?

Yes. You are afraid to have your claims examined. You wrote nonsense above. No wonder you won't answer questions. I don't care cause either way, you get exposed as a dolt making pronouncements on subjects he knows little about.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable [by humans due to their limited intellectual ability] [3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
underlined mine.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable [by us] no matter how hard we try.
underlined mine.

Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Unlike us, God has unlimited intellectual ability and unlimited time.

All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Nonsense. You assume, for no logical reason, that God changes a particle when He observes it. You have to assume this or else your argument dries up and blows away. So to even exist, your argument must commit a logical fallacy. That a quality of a part of a thing, must also be the quality of the whole. Sloppy thinking.

I'm always amazed that people who know nothing about science are willing to go public with their ignorance. All you have mentioned here are limitations of our (human) knowledge, not qualities inherent in nature. And then to add insult to injury, you make the illogical leap in assuming God suffers under the same limitations.

Quantum mechanics tells us we can never perfectly measure initial starting conditions, not just in practice but in principle.

And then you assume God is also thus limited. Why? Because you're a poor thinker with an agenda. The "we" in your sentence above refers to Human Beings who are physically limited.

Therefore any chaotic system is unpredictable, not because of human limitations but because of inherent quantum uncertainty.

You aren't even aware that when you say, "...the deterministic nature of these systems..." you are saying it is possible to predict the system. You don't know science and you don't know what "deterministic" means. "Not possible for humans" does not equal "not possible."

God cannot do what is impossible, just as he can't make a rock he can't lift.

But what is impossible is not defined as "that which cannot be done by humans". God can do the possible even when that possible is impossible for humans. Run it past your couple of brain cells a while. Slowly.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

What about a prophesy that you would die on your 50th birthday. Could you change that?

God tells you you will die at the age of 50. As 50 approaches, you make a will, create a bucket list and start on it, travel, make arrangements for your family, etc. etc. Your knowledge of a future event has altered your behaviour. Chaos theory tells us that your life will unfold in a different way than without that knowledge, ie. knowing the future immediately changes it.

I'll answer for you scaredy cat. If an omniscient entity makes the prophesy, it comes true. God would know every possible permutation of every possible behavior and would be able to know the outcome every time. Thus if God prophesied that you'd die at 50, you would, regardless of what you did between now and 50.

Will you still die at 50 in an alternate world or at 49 or 51 depending on life style changes? Who knows?

God knows.

Hence paradox.

Ignorance doth not a paradox make.

You assume God's purpose for prophesy is to make "people" believe it? Why would you assume that?

I assume nothing.

No, you know nothing. You assumed this....
Dee - "If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place?"

Words mean things dee. Really.

What if the prophesy of the plane crash is made only to a small tribe in the amazon where the plane will come down. Would that change the behavior of the people about to take the flight?

Probably not. So what?

No "paradox".

What about the change in peoples behavior did not change the result of the prophesy?

>>>dee dodges<<<<

Isn't that possible?

>>>dee dodges<<<<

Or that the prophesy itself causes behavior which ensures the prophesy?

Then it's not prophesy. It's manipulation.

No, it's still prophesy. Check the definition.

Your thought process on this point needs more time in the oven. It's half baked.

Well, it seems as though Christians agree. Let's hear no more talk of Biblical prophecy.

What? And eat this fruitcake half-baked?
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/19/2014 7:02:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 9:37:32 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 10:08:46 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:55:42 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory.

I guess we should take this on faith? Can you explain how God's knowledge of the future destroys free will? I bet you cannot.

I don't need to reinvent the wheel. John Loftus has already done it. Go and argue it out with him.

You made the claim, so you should defend it. But, as I said, you can't. No surprise there.

It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place.

It means no such thing. if you disagree, show us how.

It's self-evident.

So is BoG's divinity to him, but....

Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Sorry, but we'll wait for you to support your wild claims before we crown you king. That ok?

Sorry, if the purpose of this post is just for an atheist circle jerk-off, then just continue to ignore the questions as you've been doing.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random.

You are confused. Can you explain what "objectively random" mean? I doubt you can. Do you think Quantum uncertainty is talking about nature or about our knowledge of nature?

I can explain but that is not the issue.

Then why did you mention it? Your record says your ability to explain is dubious.

Are you denying that Quantum Mechanics is a highly successful scientific theory?

Answer the question I asked instead of pretending I asked something else. If you don't know, it's ok to say so.

....do you have any problem with anything I wrote above?

Yes. You are afraid to have your claims examined. You wrote nonsense above. No wonder you won't answer questions. I don't care cause either way, you get exposed as a dolt making pronouncements on subjects he knows little about.

From wikipedia:
<snipped for space>. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable [by humans due to their limited intellectual ability] [3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.
underlined mine.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable [by us] no matter how hard we try.
underlined mine.

Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe.

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Unlike us, God has unlimited intellectual ability and unlimited time.

All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Nonsense. You assume, for no logical reason, that God changes a particle when He observes it. You have to assume this or else your argument dries up and blows away. So to even exist, your argument must commit a logical fallacy. That a quality of a part of a thing, must also be the quality of the whole. Sloppy thinking.

I'm always amazed that people who know nothing about science are willing to go public with their ignorance. All you have mentioned here are limitations of our (human) knowledge, not qualities inherent in nature. And then to add insult to injury, you make the illogical leap in assuming God suffers under the same limitations.

Quantum mechanics tells us we can never perfectly measure initial starting conditions, not just in practice but in principle.

And then you assume God is also thus limited. Why? Because you're a poor thinker with an agenda. The "we" in your sentence above refers to Human Beings who are physically limited.

Therefore any chaotic system is unpredictable, not because of human limitations but because of inherent quantum uncertainty.

You aren't even aware that when you say, "...the deterministic nature of these systems..." you are saying it is possible to predict the system. You don't know science and you don't know what "deterministic" means. "Not possible for humans" does not equal "not possible."

God cannot do what is impossible, just as he can't make a rock he can't lift.

But what is impossible is not defined as "that which cannot be done by humans". God can do the possible even when that possible is impossible for humans. Run it past your couple of brain cells a while. Slowly.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

What about a prophesy that you would die on your 50th birthday. Could you change that?

God tells you you will die at the age of 50. As 50 approaches, you make a will, create a bucket list and start on it, travel, make arrangements for your family, etc. etc. Your knowledge of a future event has altered your behaviour. Chaos theory tells us that your life will unfold in a different way than without that knowledge, ie. knowing the future immediately changes it.

I'll answer for you scaredy cat. If an omniscient entity makes the prophesy, it comes true. God would know every possible permutation of every possible behavior and would be able to know the outcome every time. Thus if God prophesied that you'd die at 50, you would, regardless of what you did between now and 50.

Will you still die at 50 in an alternate world or at 49 or 51 depending on life style changes? Who knows?

God knows.

Hence paradox.

Ignorance doth not a paradox make.

You assume God's purpose for prophesy is to make "people" believe it? Why would you assume that?

I assume nothing.

No, you know nothing. You assumed this....
Dee - "If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place?"

Words mean things dee. Really.

What if the prophesy of the plane crash is made only to a small tribe in the amazon where the plane will come down. Would that change the behavior of the people about to take the flight?

Probably not. So what?

No "paradox".

What about the change in peoples behavior did not change the result of the prophesy?

>>>dee dodges<<<<

Isn't that possible?

>>>dee dodges<<<<

Or that the prophesy itself causes behavior which ensures the prophesy?

Then it's not prophesy. It's manipulation.

No, it's still prophesy. Check the definition.

Your thought process on this point needs more time in the oven. It's half baked.

Well, it seems as though Christians agree. Let's hear no more talk of Biblical prophecy.

What? And eat this fruitcake half-baked?

And so you live up to your reputation of polemics rather than honest debate, all insults and put-downs rather than a genuine exchange of knowledge. When the ad hominems start, that's when I bid you adieu. Adieu. (Which is your aim, of course).
PGA
Posts: 4,049
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12/19/2014 7:18:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

I'm fine with this.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

Look, I'm not going off on your wild goose chases. The issue is to show God can and does predict events that come true with complete accuracy. If you want to discuss biblical prophecy then let's see what it predicts and if these predictions came to pass. You are bringing so much presuppositional baggage into this that I'm not going to run off here and there chasing your personal rabbit trails. If you want to speak about prophecy then stick to the biblical prophesies and the history surrounding them.

Since the Olivet Discourse is a prophecy that connects and radiates to every area of the Bible that is where I start.

Both in the OT and NT the focus is on the God's relationship with this OT people and either reward for their faithfulness with the promised of the Deliverer or judgment for their apostasy with the destruction of their entire system of worship, the way in which they maintained their relationship with God - animal sacrifices to atone for their wrongful actions. This covenant relationship ends with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. These prophesies were fulfilled in amazing detail. In Daniel 2 and 7 Daniel interprets or has a vision that predicts the four empires that would conquer the known world of the time, the fourth one being the Roman Empire that destroyed Jerusalem and some of the details involved.

Jesus, in the NT, predicts that "this generation" will not pass until all OT prophecy is fulfilled. This is what we see. To say otherwise is to ignore what Scripture teaches.

So go ahead and dispute this if you think this is impossible to predict, in some cases hundreds of years before they happened.

Peter
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/19/2014 9:58:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 7:18:48 PM, PGA wrote:
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

I'm fine with this.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

Look, I'm not going off on your wild goose chases. The issue is to show God can and does predict events that come true with complete accuracy. If you want to discuss biblical prophecy then let's see what it predicts and if these predictions came to pass. You are bringing so much presuppositional baggage into this that I'm not going to run off here and there chasing your personal rabbit trails. If you want to speak about prophecy then stick to the biblical prophesies and the history surrounding them.

I'm sorry but you don't get to do that. You're like an astrologer who says look, I don't want to explain how an alignment of two planets can change the course of the life of all humans born on a certain date. Can we just go straight into this forecast I made for Virgos and see how it panned out. It's ridiculous.

It's no use going into specific 'prophecies' if you can't even establish that there is a sound foundation for believing prophecy is possible. That's putting the cart before the horse.

Since the Olivet Discourse is a prophecy that connects and radiates to every area of the Bible that is where I start.

Both in the OT and NT the focus is on the God's relationship with this OT people and either reward for their faithfulness with the promised of the Deliverer or judgment for their apostasy with the destruction of their entire system of worship, the way in which they maintained their relationship with God - animal sacrifices to atone for their wrongful actions. This covenant relationship ends with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. These prophesies were fulfilled in amazing detail. In Daniel 2 and 7 Daniel interprets or has a vision that predicts the four empires that would conquer the known world of the time, the fourth one being the Roman Empire that destroyed Jerusalem and some of the details involved.

Jesus, in the NT, predicts that "this generation" will not pass until all OT prophecy is fulfilled. This is what we see. To say otherwise is to ignore what Scripture teaches.

So go ahead and dispute this if you think this is impossible to predict, in some cases hundreds of years before they happened.

Peter
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/19/2014 10:10:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

We can't be sure yet of the ultimate conclusions which QT will spawn. Newtonian physics were almost universally considered to be near absolute law for longer than QM has been around, and while QT didn't really supersede Newtonian physics, it did totally change our perception of the reality which they painted.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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12/19/2014 10:42:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 10:10:58 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

We can't be sure yet of the ultimate conclusions which QT will spawn. Newtonian physics were almost universally considered to be near absolute law for longer than QM has been around, and while QT didn't really supersede Newtonian physics, it did totally change our perception of the reality which they painted.

You're a little confused, I think. Einstein upset the Newton apple cart (pun intended). His theories about time and space extended beyond and above Newtonian physics.

Quantum Theory is something totally new and, whilst it may not be the last word on our knowledge of the world of the very small, it has certainly been very successful and been proven to have superb explanatory power. It may or may not be incorporated in some larger, more comprehensive theory in future but, just like Newtonian physics, it won't be invalidated if that happens.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/19/2014 10:52:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 10:42:33 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/19/2014 10:10:58 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/15/2014 7:34:29 PM, dee-em wrote:
By prophecy, I don't mean prediction based on currently available knowledge or an informed best guess. I mean a vision, nominally from God, on events in the future which the 'prophet' can have no possible knowledge of.

Destruction of free will
If God has certain knowledge of the future then it renders the free will of humans as being illusory. It means that there is no such thing as human free action since the future is already fixed in place. Prophecy destroys one of the central tenets of Christianity.

Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory
Science has shown us that as we look at the world of the very small we find that microscopic phenomena are objectively random. A good example is radioactive decay and the consequences of quantum uncertainty as demonstrated in the famous Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

From wikipedia:
Chaos theory studies the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions"a response popularly referred to as the butterfly effect. Small differences in initial conditions (such as those due to rounding errors in numerical computation) yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction difficult in general.[1] This happens even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved.[2] In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable.[3][4] This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Nature is telling us that the future is not perfectly predictable no matter how hard we try. Knowledge of the future cannot come from God simply because of the way he has (allegedly) put together the universe. All he could possibly do is wind it up and let it run down in a non-deterministic fashion.

Paradox
Suppose someone could foretell the future perfectly and made public that a particular airplane flight on a specific date would crash. If the prophesy were believed, who would board that flight? It would be cancelled. Perfect prediction of the future is a paradox because such knowledge would change the behaviour of the people who received it. If people don't believe the prophesy then what would be God's purpose in revealing it in the first place? Believe - alter behaviour and affect prophecy. Disbelieve - prophecy is pointless. It's an incoherent concept.

We can't be sure yet of the ultimate conclusions which QT will spawn. Newtonian physics were almost universally considered to be near absolute law for longer than QM has been around, and while QT didn't really supersede Newtonian physics, it did totally change our perception of the reality which they painted.

You're a little confused, I think. Einstein upset the Newton apple cart (pun intended). His theories about time and space extended beyond and above Newtonian physics.

Quantum Theory is something totally new and, whilst it may not be the last word on our knowledge of the world of the very small, it has certainly been very successful and been proven to have superb explanatory power. It may or may not be incorporated in some larger, more comprehensive theory in future but, just like Newtonian physics, it won't be invalidated if that happens.

Which is almost exactly what I said. You really don't have a lot of comprehensive skills, do you? Newtonian physics are still used for countless day-to-day physical measurements, theory construction, etc., but QM opened a new dimension which changed our perception of everything. Our understand of QT is extremely limited, but we have figured-out how to use it to a certain degree, kind of like learning to ride a horse even if you don't know how the horse works on the inside.