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Favourite Nonsensical Bible Stories Pt1

dee-em
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12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Numbers 22
Balak and Balaam

7 The elders of Moab and Midian left, taking with them the fee for divination. When they came to Balaam, they told him what Balak had said.
8 "Spend the night here," Balaam said to them, "and I will report back to you with the answer the Lord gives me." So the Moabite officials stayed with him.
9 God came to Balaam and asked, "Who are these men with you?"
10 Balaam said to God, "Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, sent me this message: 11 "A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.""
12 But God said to Balaam, "Do not go with them. You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed."
13 The next morning Balaam got up and said to Balak"s officials, "Go back to your own country, for the Lord has refused to let me go with you."
14 So the Moabite officials returned to Balak and said, "Balaam refused to come with us."
15 Then Balak sent other officials, more numerous and more distinguished than the first. 16 They came to Balaam and said:
"This is what Balak son of Zippor says: Do not let anything keep you from coming to me, 17 because I will reward you handsomely and do whatever you say. Come and put a curse on these people for me."
18 But Balaam answered them, "Even if Balak gave me all the silver and gold in his palace, I could not do anything great or small to go beyond the command of the Lord my God. 19 Now spend the night here so that I can find out what else the Lord will tell me."
20 That night God came to Balaam and said, "Since these men have come to summon you, go with them, but do only what I tell you."

Balaam's Donkey
21 Balaam got up in the morning, saddled his donkey and went with the Moabite officials. 22 But God was very angry when he went, and the angel of the Lord stood in the road to oppose him. Balaam was riding on his donkey, and his two servants were with him. 23 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with a drawn sword in his hand, it turned off the road into a field. Balaam beat it to get it back on the road.
24 Then the angel of the Lord stood in a narrow path through the vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam"s foot against it. So he beat the donkey again.
26 Then the angel of the Lord moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the Lord, it lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat it with his staff. 28 Then the Lord opened the donkey"s mouth, and it said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
29 Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If only I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."
30 The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"
"No," he said.
31 Then the Lord opened Balaam"s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
32 The angel of the Lord asked him, "Why have you beaten your donkey these three times? I have come here to oppose you because your path is a reckless one before me.[a] 33 The donkey saw me and turned away from me these three times. If it had not turned away, I would certainly have killed you by now, but I would have spared it."
34 Balaam said to the angel of the Lord, "I have sinned. I did not realize you were standing in the road to oppose me. Now if you are displeased, I will go back."
35 The angel of the Lord said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but speak only what I tell you." So Balaam went with Balak"s officials.
36 When Balak heard that Balaam was coming, he went out to meet him at the Moabite town on the Arnon border, at the edge of his territory. 37 Balak said to Balaam, "Did I not send you an urgent summons? Why didn"t you come to me? Am I really not able to reward you?"
38 "Well, I have come to you now," Balaam replied. "But I can"t say whatever I please. I must speak only what God puts in my mouth."


Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why? Notice that he's leaving with the delegation in 22.21 but for the rest of this tale he's suddenly on his own with his servants. What?

God, in his inexplicable cold anger, then blocks the road by making his angel only visible to Balaam's donkey. He's spoken to Balaam before but now he's so furious (as he tends to be in the OT) that words won't suffice. Is this starting to sound more like a childish prank than the actions of a god yet?

After thwarting the donkey's advance a few times, Balaam beats the donkey. Petulant God still won't speak directly to Balaam so he speaks as the donkey (!) and berates Balaam for abusing him. But hold on a second. God set up this situation. Balaam had no way of knowing what was going on, yet God chastizes him (as the donkey) for a fairly reasonable response. (Not that I condone the beating of animals). A just God?

Finally God reveals the angel and tells Balaam he would have killed him if the donkey hadn't balked. Killed him for what? God told him to go to the meeting! This is getting bizarre. Even more bizarrely God then proceeds to instruct him in 22.35 to continue to the meeting after all. Is this the word of God or Alice in Wonderland? Nothing makes sense.

Lastly, in 22.38, Balaam makes the amazing confession that he can't say what he wants but only what God tells him. So much for the Christian doctrine of free will!

Comments?
Envisage
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12/16/2014 7:21:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I am reading through the Gospel of Mark again this week and read this passage this morning which qualifies pretty high up there among the nonsensical stories.

Mark 5 1-13
1And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

..... Say what!
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.

Notice that he's leaving with the delegation in 22.21 but for the rest of this tale he's suddenly on his own with his servants. What?

Ok. We will just ignore verse 35 which says,
"....So Balaam went with Balak"s officials."
Cause we know that when the Bible is clear is when it's most obscure. So Balaam going WITH Balak's officials must really mean he was "on his own."

God, in his inexplicable cold anger, then blocks the road by making his angel only visible to Balaam's donkey. He's spoken to Balaam before but now he's so furious (as he tends to be in the OT) that words won't suffice. Is this starting to sound more like a childish prank than the actions of a god yet?

We will wait for you to tell us since it is obvious you know what appropriate behavior for a God is. We trust you. Um.... how do you know this?

After thwarting the donkey's advance a few times, Balaam beats the donkey. Petulant God still won't speak directly to Balaam so he speaks as the donkey (!) and berates Balaam for abusing him. But hold on a second. God set up this situation. Balaam had no way of knowing what was going on, yet God chastizes him (as the donkey) for a fairly reasonable response. (Not that I condone the beating of animals). A just God?

Wait. Balaam's response in beating the Donkey was "reasonable" but you don't condone the beating of animals? lol. Makes sense. I wonder what was the significance of the question the donkey asked, "Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"

Huh? Oh sorry. I forgot. Atheists don't consider context. My bad.

Finally God reveals the angel and tells Balaam he would have killed him if the donkey hadn't balked. Killed him for what? God told him to go to the meeting! This is getting bizarre.

Yes! We don't even have to know why God acted the way He did to know this is bizarre. Things we can't explain are bizarre. But not because we can't explain them. They just are. Especially things God is said to have done.

Even more bizarrely God then proceeds to instruct him in 22.35 to continue to the meeting after all. Is this the word of God or Alice in Wonderland? Nothing makes sense.

And if it doesn't make sense to you, it can't be right. I mean, you know how a God is supposed to act and all. We suspect anything which doesn't make sense to you. That is our standard. It's one of the reasons we reject Quantum Mechanics

Lastly, in 22.38, Balaam makes the amazing confession that he can't say what he wants but only what God tells him. So much for the Christian doctrine of free will!

I know! My dad was once offered the job of Ambassador but rejected it because he would not be able to say anything he wanted. He was a fan of free will, and we all know Ambassadors are slaves. Can you believe Ambassadors have to say only what their governments want them to say? All countries with Ambassadors are dictatorships! ................. wait.

Comments?

No spin. No stupidity. Attention to context. Bravo!
dee-em
Posts: 6,474
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12/16/2014 6:12:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 7:21:05 AM, Envisage wrote:
I am reading through the Gospel of Mark again this week and read this passage this morning which qualifies pretty high up there among the nonsensical stories.

Mark 5 1-13
1And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.


..... Say what!

Lol. Read all about it! Gentle, peace-loving Jesus causes the mass suicide of 2,000 innocent pigs resulting in untold hardship and possible starvation to the families who owned them. Read all about it!

(Because we all know that if you put a devil into an animal, then kill the animal, the devil dies with it).
dee-em
Posts: 6,474
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12/16/2014 6:39:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.

Notice that he's leaving with the delegation in 22.21 but for the rest of this tale he's suddenly on his own with his servants. What?

Ok. We will just ignore verse 35 which says,
"....So Balaam went with Balak"s officials."
Cause we know that when the Bible is clear is when it's most obscure. So Balaam going WITH Balak's officials must really mean he was "on his own."

God, in his inexplicable cold anger, then blocks the road by making his angel only visible to Balaam's donkey. He's spoken to Balaam before but now he's so furious (as he tends to be in the OT) that words won't suffice. Is this starting to sound more like a childish prank than the actions of a god yet?

We will wait for you to tell us since it is obvious you know what appropriate behavior for a God is. We trust you. Um.... how do you know this?

After thwarting the donkey's advance a few times, Balaam beats the donkey. Petulant God still won't speak directly to Balaam so he speaks as the donkey (!) and berates Balaam for abusing him. But hold on a second. God set up this situation. Balaam had no way of knowing what was going on, yet God chastizes him (as the donkey) for a fairly reasonable response. (Not that I condone the beating of animals). A just God?

Wait. Balaam's response in beating the Donkey was "reasonable" but you don't condone the beating of animals? lol. Makes sense. I wonder what was the significance of the question the donkey asked, "Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"

Huh? Oh sorry. I forgot. Atheists don't consider context. My bad.

Finally God reveals the angel and tells Balaam he would have killed him if the donkey hadn't balked. Killed him for what? God told him to go to the meeting! This is getting bizarre.

Yes! We don't even have to know why God acted the way He did to know this is bizarre. Things we can't explain are bizarre. But not because we can't explain them. They just are. Especially things God is said to have done.

Even more bizarrely God then proceeds to instruct him in 22.35 to continue to the meeting after all. Is this the word of God or Alice in Wonderland? Nothing makes sense.

And if it doesn't make sense to you, it can't be right. I mean, you know how a God is supposed to act and all. We suspect anything which doesn't make sense to you. That is our standard. It's one of the reasons we reject Quantum Mechanics

Lastly, in 22.38, Balaam makes the amazing confession that he can't say what he wants but only what God tells him. So much for the Christian doctrine of free will!

I know! My dad was once offered the job of Ambassador but rejected it because he would not be able to say anything he wanted. He was a fan of free will, and we all know Ambassadors are slaves. Can you believe Ambassadors have to say only what their governments want them to say? All countries with Ambassadors are dictatorships! ................. wait.

Comments?

No spin. No stupidity. Attention to context. Bravo!

The above is an insult to apologetics. Talk about lame. Come on, you're not even trying! Lol.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.
You're not omniscient and you're not asking because you don't know. You're asking because you want her to have to think about what she's doing. That's not the situation in the story.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........
Yeah... what if God claimed to be omniscient, and actually was! Oooo what then?

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.
How is it acting as if man is omniscient to ask us a question for which we know the answer?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.
What changed? Why did God change his mind? And if God is omniscient, nothing should be able to change his mind.
If you started to be rational, any of you real friends would continue to be your friend.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.
They're not errors. They're just stories, pretty much as they were written, which expose that they're human imagination, not reality and not the result of influence by a divine being.

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.
You're not omniscient and you're not asking because you don't know. You're asking because you want her to have to think about what she's doing. That's not the situation in the story.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........
Yeah... what if God claimed to be omniscient, and actually was! Oooo what then?

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.
How is it acting as if man is omniscient to ask us a question for which we know the answer?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.
What changed? Why did God change his mind? And if God is omniscient, nothing should be able to change his mind.
If you started to be rational, any of you real friends would continue to be your friend.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.
They're not errors. They're just stories, pretty much as they were written, which expose that they're human imagination, not reality and not the result of influence by a divine being.

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/16/2014 9:01:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.
You're not omniscient and you're not asking because you don't know. You're asking because you want her to have to think about what she's doing. That's not the situation in the story.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........
Yeah... what if God claimed to be omniscient, and actually was! Oooo what then?

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.
How is it acting as if man is omniscient to ask us a question for which we know the answer?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.
What changed? Why did God change his mind? And if God is omniscient, nothing should be able to change his mind.
If you started to be rational, any of you real friends would continue to be your friend.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.
They're not errors. They're just stories, pretty much as they were written, which expose that they're human imagination, not reality and not the result of influence by a divine being.

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

Why would I paint a picture and make obvious glaring mistakes so that critics would look at it? At no point would the critics say, wow... she's a great artist. They would say I am a flawed artist and their minds wouldn't change, ever. Especially if it was my only painting.

Maybe the inconsistencies are in transcription. Human beings are not perfect. Maybe while writing it out the imperfect human brain made errors. No matter how I try, I always end up with typos. It doesn't help that 90% of the time I'm doing this from a mobile device, like right now. Ugh! It is possible for people to make mistakes, no matter how inspired we are. Perhaps a word is left out or used in the wrong tense.

But, I know this will not do for the average theist, because the Bible is supposed to be completely the word of God. How could they make a mistake then? I'm not challenging, it's more like I have a difficult time grasping that mere human hands, even the most inspired aren't somewhat flawed.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/16/2014 9:10:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:01:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.
You're not omniscient and you're not asking because you don't know. You're asking because you want her to have to think about what she's doing. That's not the situation in the story.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........
Yeah... what if God claimed to be omniscient, and actually was! Oooo what then?

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.
How is it acting as if man is omniscient to ask us a question for which we know the answer?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.
What changed? Why did God change his mind? And if God is omniscient, nothing should be able to change his mind.
If you started to be rational, any of you real friends would continue to be your friend.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.
They're not errors. They're just stories, pretty much as they were written, which expose that they're human imagination, not reality and not the result of influence by a divine being.

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

Why would I paint a picture and make obvious glaring mistakes so that critics would look at it? At no point would the critics say, wow... she's a great artist. They would say I am a flawed artist and their minds wouldn't change, ever. Especially if it was my only painting.

Maybe the inconsistencies are in transcription. Human beings are not perfect. Maybe while writing it out the imperfect human brain made errors. No matter how I try, I always end up with typos. It doesn't help that 90% of the time I'm doing this from a mobile device, like right now. Ugh! It is possible for people to make mistakes, no matter how inspired we are. Perhaps a word is left out or used in the wrong tense.

But, I know this will not do for the average theist, because the Bible is supposed to be completely the word of God. How could they make a mistake then? I'm not challenging, it's more like I have a difficult time grasping that mere human hands, even the most inspired aren't somewhat flawed.

I do not truly think that. I was joking that that errors were there for Atheist to read the bible more.

I was going to write, and have said before, that the Bible had humans writing it. And I haven't seen anything mankind was involved in that ended up perfect. So transcription errors do occur and account for some discrepancy.
dee-em
Posts: 6,474
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12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/16/2014 9:21:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:10:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:01:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.
You're not omniscient and you're not asking because you don't know. You're asking because you want her to have to think about what she's doing. That's not the situation in the story.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........
Yeah... what if God claimed to be omniscient, and actually was! Oooo what then?

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.
How is it acting as if man is omniscient to ask us a question for which we know the answer?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.
What changed? Why did God change his mind? And if God is omniscient, nothing should be able to change his mind.
If you started to be rational, any of you real friends would continue to be your friend.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.
They're not errors. They're just stories, pretty much as they were written, which expose that they're human imagination, not reality and not the result of influence by a divine being.

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

Why would I paint a picture and make obvious glaring mistakes so that critics would look at it? At no point would the critics say, wow... she's a great artist. They would say I am a flawed artist and their minds wouldn't change, ever. Especially if it was my only painting.

Maybe the inconsistencies are in transcription. Human beings are not perfect. Maybe while writing it out the imperfect human brain made errors. No matter how I try, I always end up with typos. It doesn't help that 90% of the time I'm doing this from a mobile device, like right now. Ugh! It is possible for people to make mistakes, no matter how inspired we are. Perhaps a word is left out or used in the wrong tense.

But, I know this will not do for the average theist, because the Bible is supposed to be completely the word of God. How could they make a mistake then? I'm not challenging, it's more like I have a difficult time grasping that mere human hands, even the most inspired aren't somewhat flawed.

I do not truly think that. I was joking that that errors were there for Atheist to read the bible more.

I was going to write, and have said before, that the Bible had humans writing it. And I haven't seen anything mankind was involved in that ended up perfect. So transcription errors do occur and account for some discrepancy.

I've had a long day and I can be deaf to humor sometimes. You know... get the joke and finally laugh an hour later ;)

Yeah. As people we tend to make mistakes.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/16/2014 9:29:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

What do you think God's actual message was supposed to be. Don't worry about all of the stories, genealogies, etc. What message was God trying to offer?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/16/2014 9:37:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:29:31 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

What do you think God's actual message was supposed to be. Don't worry about all of the stories, genealogies, etc. What message was God trying to offer?

I think God's message, The one given to the whole world, is written in the stars, song by the animals, declared by the brook, laid as the foundation for all life.

There is a cycle of death that a great king ends. A cycle we are all part of and need salvation from.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/16/2014 9:53:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:37:40 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:29:31 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

What do you think God's actual message was supposed to be. Don't worry about all of the stories, genealogies, etc. What message was God trying to offer?

I think God's message, The one given to the whole world, is written in the stars, song by the animals, declared by the brook, laid as the foundation for all life.

There is a cycle of death that a great king ends. A cycle we are all part of and need salvation from.

Which could also be seen as nature's message to all life. So what do you see as the point of the Bible?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/16/2014 10:52:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:53:43 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:37:40 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:29:31 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

What do you think God's actual message was supposed to be. Don't worry about all of the stories, genealogies, etc. What message was God trying to offer?

I think God's message, The one given to the whole world, is written in the stars, song by the animals, declared by the brook, laid as the foundation for all life.

There is a cycle of death that a great king ends. A cycle we are all part of and need salvation from.

Which could also be seen as nature's message to all life. So what do you see as the point of the Bible?

Why would nature have a message? A message isn't sent from a force, it's sent by a mind to be received by another mind.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/16/2014 10:55:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:52:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:53:43 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:37:40 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:29:31 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

What do you think God's actual message was supposed to be. Don't worry about all of the stories, genealogies, etc. What message was God trying to offer?

I think God's message, The one given to the whole world, is written in the stars, song by the animals, declared by the brook, laid as the foundation for all life.

There is a cycle of death that a great king ends. A cycle we are all part of and need salvation from.

Which could also be seen as nature's message to all life. So what do you see as the point of the Bible?

Why would nature have a message? A message isn't sent from a force, it's sent by a mind to be received by another mind.

Nature is a collection of forces and mechanisms and we've learned much from them. I'm not suggesting that nature is a sentient being trying to communicate with us. But what you offered as the concise message of the Bible could very well be the concise lesson we learn from nature. So my question was about what you think the Bible is about. What was the purpose of the Bible?
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/16/2014 11:03:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:55:47 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 10:52:46 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:53:43 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:37:40 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:29:31 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.


God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

What do you think God's actual message was supposed to be. Don't worry about all of the stories, genealogies, etc. What message was God trying to offer?

I think God's message, The one given to the whole world, is written in the stars, song by the animals, declared by the brook, laid as the foundation for all life.

There is a cycle of death that a great king ends. A cycle we are all part of and need salvation from.

Which could also be seen as nature's message to all life. So what do you see as the point of the Bible?

Why would nature have a message? A message isn't sent from a force, it's sent by a mind to be received by another mind.

Nature is a collection of forces and mechanisms and we've learned much from them. I'm not suggesting that nature is a sentient being trying to communicate with us. But what you offered as the concise message of the Bible could very well be the concise lesson we learn from nature. So my question was about what you think the Bible is about. What was the purpose of the Bible?

Well I think Nature is the paper, pen, brush, math, God used to write out a message. The Talmud is for Jews, and the Bible is for Christians as a record of God in those peoples lives.

Now I'm not a universalist. I don't think a path of Satanism and a path of Christianity lead to the same God.

I see a lot of layers and interesting reading in the Bible. I think details like that require more faith than what a intellectual inquiry might bring a person. But I have my conviction that God is real exist and loves me. Despite me, not because of me.
dee-em
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12/17/2014 5:17:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.

Apologetics 101:
If you can't explain why something in your religion is the way it is, simply plead that this is the best possible way it could be, even though it makes no sense. Try and pretend that you cannot imagine how it could be done any better.

Well done Mhykiel, you pass the course.

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

You just have to read the excerpt I posted in the OP. How could you not burst out laughing? It's comedy gold. God playing ventriloquist with a donkey. Priceless.
Composer
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12/17/2014 5:32:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.
Nah!, a divine being that wrote a book and claimed it wasn't the author of confusion would hopefully know how to put its message unambiguously into any language!

The fact that their are a myriad of self contradicting bible based beliefs, proves unambiguously it is entirely the concoction of fallible humans!

Next!
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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12/17/2014 8:33:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.

You're not omniscient and you're not asking because you don't know. You're asking because you want her to have to think about what she's doing. That's not the situation in the story.

Right. God doesn't want us to think about what we're doing. How could I have missed that?

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........

Yeah... what if God claimed to be omniscient, and actually was! Oooo what then?

I'm sure the Gentle Readers understand my answer. You can dodge it. That's ok, I didn't post it for you anyway.

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.

How is it acting as if man is omniscient to ask us a question for which we know the answer?

I usually ask questions of people who I think know the answer. You don't?

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.

What changed? Why did God change his mind? And if God is omniscient, nothing should be able to change his mind.

Right. God wasn't saying "Don't go now", He was saying "Don't go ever". So days later, He couldn't say, "OK, go now." That would be "changing His mind." Yes, your argument is tight!

If you started to be rational, any of you real friends would continue to be your friend.

But if one of those friends called you at 3 am and said "should I come over?" and you said "don't come", you couldn't possibly tell him the next afternoon to "come" because that would mean you are contradicting yourself. Right?

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.

They're not errors. They're just stories, pretty much as they were written, which expose that they're human imagination, not reality and not the result of influence by a divine being.

Ok, I'll correct. Who knows, but it must be fiction. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means the story is fiction. Better?

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

I don't know. But I do know that humans are needed to step in and show how silly the arguments are of the people abandoning logic in order to claim there are inconsistencies.

Here is an example from this very thread. Dolt said that the Bible showed Balaam leaving with Balak's men, and then later is travelling all alone. I pointed out a subsequent verse sayng that Balaam continued on WITH Balak's men.

And we can hear the crickets chirping as both of you run from the response. Did he lie? Or was he just dense? You came with your reply, posting some of my responses, but glaringly leaving that one out. Why?

It is so easy dismantling your arguments because instead of using the text and making a sound argument, you guys will fake verses, use ridiculous interpretations, and wantonly contradict yourselves in a desperate attempt to show the Bible to be false/wrong/bad.

And then when I show your argument to be without merit, you dodge and run, further highlighting the fact that you have no argument really. It's no wonder the smarter atheists avoid the forum like the plague.
ethang5
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12/17/2014 8:35:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 6:39:11 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:25:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:12:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

Numbers 22

Just take the story in for a moment, keeping in mind that this is God's word.

In 22.9 we find that God is not omniscient. He has to ask Balaam who the men with him are. He doesn't know?

I can relate. I sometimes catch my little daughter doing something wrong (last time, writing on the kitchen wall with a marker) and ask her, "What are you doing?" ..............Wait.

But this brings up a thought. What if God responded to us on His level, always knowing, never asking any question, telling us what we think and what we're going to say before we say it, answering questions we haven't asked yet........

Thank God God isn't stupid, and doesn't talks to us as if we are omniscient.

In 22.12 God tells Balaam not to meet with Balak and lend him support in fighting the Israelites. Fair enough. Then in 22.20 after a new delegation has been sent, God suddenly allows the meeting to go ahead. God changed his mind?

So at one point God says, "Don't go." Then at a later date, God says "Go". I see your point. Once God said "Don't go", that should have been the answer for all eternity. So even if, three weeks later, God says "Go now" it must mean He "changed His mind". Not that He remained consistent about not going at that time.

Despite having just told Balaam to go back with the men, when he starts to leave in 22.22, God gets angry. Why?

Who knows, but it must be an error. We all know that whenever there is a hanging "why?" in the Bible, it means there is an error.

Notice that he's leaving with the delegation in 22.21 but for the rest of this tale he's suddenly on his own with his servants. What?

Ok. We will just ignore verse 35 which says,
"....So Balaam went with Balak"s officials."
Cause we know that when the Bible is clear is when it's most obscure. So Balaam going WITH Balak's officials must really mean he was "on his own."

God, in his inexplicable cold anger, then blocks the road by making his angel only visible to Balaam's donkey. He's spoken to Balaam before but now he's so furious (as he tends to be in the OT) that words won't suffice. Is this starting to sound more like a childish prank than the actions of a god yet?

We will wait for you to tell us since it is obvious you know what appropriate behavior for a God is. We trust you. Um.... how do you know this?

After thwarting the donkey's advance a few times, Balaam beats the donkey. Petulant God still won't speak directly to Balaam so he speaks as the donkey (!) and berates Balaam for abusing him. But hold on a second. God set up this situation. Balaam had no way of knowing what was going on, yet God chastizes him (as the donkey) for a fairly reasonable response. (Not that I condone the beating of animals). A just God?

Wait. Balaam's response in beating the Donkey was "reasonable" but you don't condone the beating of animals? lol. Makes sense. I wonder what was the significance of the question the donkey asked, "Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"

Huh? Oh sorry. I forgot. Atheists don't consider context. My bad.

Finally God reveals the angel and tells Balaam he would have killed him if the donkey hadn't balked. Killed him for what? God told him to go to the meeting! This is getting bizarre.

Yes! We don't even have to know why God acted the way He did to know this is bizarre. Things we can't explain are bizarre. But not because we can't explain them. They just are. Especially things God is said to have done.

Even more bizarrely God then proceeds to instruct him in 22.35 to continue to the meeting after all. Is this the word of God or Alice in Wonderland? Nothing makes sense.

And if it doesn't make sense to you, it can't be right. I mean, you know how a God is supposed to act and all. We suspect anything which doesn't make sense to you. That is our standard. It's one of the reasons we reject Quantum Mechanics

Lastly, in 22.38, Balaam makes the amazing confession that he can't say what he wants but only what God tells him. So much for the Christian doctrine of free will!

I know! My dad was once offered the job of Ambassador but rejected it because he would not be able to say anything he wanted. He was a fan of free will, and we all know Ambassadors are slaves. Can you believe Ambassadors have to say only what their governments want them to say? All countries with Ambassadors are dictatorships! ................. wait.

Comments?

No spin. No stupidity. Attention to context. Bravo!

The above is an insult to apologetics. Talk about lame. Come on, you're not even trying! Lol.

Yeah. I didn't need to.
slo1
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12/17/2014 2:47:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Matthew

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.


That was very respectful of Joseph to not put his wanker in Mary until God's wanker got out of the way. Joseph is waaaaaaaaaaay too proper to have sloppy seconds anyway, so I would expect nothing less.
slo1
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12/17/2014 3:06:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Act 5

5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife"s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles" feet.

3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn"t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn"t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"

"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9 Peter said to her, "How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.


Love this verse. Peter doesn't give a shat. A guy dies who gives money but not ALL money to his ministry and the guy is whacked. No worries, we don't need to tell anyone, lets just wait for the wife to show up and we will test her too. Those young dudes who just for some reason show up at the right time will bury her just like the mafia clean teams. Peter's shaking down people and has his own clean team, and this is after Jesus!
dee-em
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12/17/2014 4:32:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 8:33:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Here is an example from this very thread. Dolt said that the Bible showed Balaam leaving with Balak's men, and then later is travelling all alone. I pointed out a subsequent verse sayng that Balaam continued on WITH Balak's men.

And we can hear the crickets chirping as both of you run from the response. Did he lie? Or was he just dense? You came with your reply, posting some of my responses, but glaringly leaving that one out. Why?

Firstly, I dont appreciate the ad hominems. There is no call for it. You haven't been subjected to that by me.

Secondly, read 22.21 - 22.34 carefully. Do you get a sense that there is anyone else there apart from Balaam, his donkey and a couple of servants? I dont. If you had officials escorting you to their ruler, you would expect them to be leading the way since they had just travelled the route in the opposite direction. Instead, Balaam is in front and exposed, and whilst the ridiculous charade with the donkey is being played out, the officials are nowhere to be seen or heard. Donkey is talking, angel is appearing with sword in hand, God is talking and yet there is no consternation, no panic, nothing. Then the author of this tale suddenly remembers the officials in 22.35 and back they pop into the narrative. It's yet another huge flaw in the story. And note the wording:

So Balaam went with Balak's officials.

Highly indicative of the officials leading the way. Yet their donkeys didn't balk - they might as well have been invisible. Absurd.

It is so easy dismantling your arguments because instead of using the text and making a sound argument, you guys will fake verses, use ridiculous interpretations, and wantonly contradict yourselves in a desperate attempt to show the Bible to be false/wrong/bad.

Which verse did I fake?
Which interpretation was ridiculous rather than the obvious one?
Where have I contradicted myself?

And then when I show your argument to be without merit, you dodge and run, further highlighting the fact that you have no argument really. It's no wonder the smarter atheists avoid the forum like the plague.

Because they're afraid of you? Ha ha ha ha.
Mhykiel
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12/17/2014 5:07:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:17:43 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:21:32 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 9:14:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/16/2014 8:16:20 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 12/16/2014 6:51:41 PM, Beastt wrote:

You're just making excuses. If the Bible were a true divine work, would it need humans to step in and make excuses for its inconsistencies?

Your right, if there were any divine work it would be written in the most perfect universal language, that perfectly captures the truth. I doubt any human would be able to understand it.

Are you saying that this task (producing a consistent, thoroughly intelligent divine work which is understandable by humans) is beyond the power of an omnipotent god?

You mean so the dumb and smart alike could understand it. Then it would have to have layers of understanding, scaling in the verses used.

I suppose for it to be seen as something readable it would have to come from human hands, cause if it was etched in the sands of the beach or in the DNA of every living cell, some people would call this a natural pattern.

This divine message would have to show that it is revealed or written out over a long time, lest the consistency be blamed as a work of fiction from one mind.

Even cooler would be if this message from god was written a little by one person and a little by another person who never talked to each other, or saw what each other wrote, but still agreed on things.

I guess if God wrote a message to mankind it might be something like that.

Apologetics 101:
If you can't explain why something in your religion is the way it is, simply plead that this is the best possible way it could be, even though it makes no sense. Try and pretend that you cannot imagine how it could be done any better.

Well done Mhykiel, you pass the course.

I've never taken an Apologetics course, Thanks for thinking I could be good at it.

God put those inconsistencies (i'm not saying there are any) so Atheist and others would read the Word of God.

We read the "word of God" and we laugh. Is that really what God wanted?

Sadly i bet you think that is a statement of some kind of "truth" about the Bible; but it is really a statement about you,

You just have to read the excerpt I posted in the OP. How could you not burst out laughing? It's comedy gold. God playing ventriloquist with a donkey. Priceless.
dee-em
Posts: 6,474
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12/17/2014 5:25:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 3:06:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
Act 5

5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife"s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles" feet.

3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn"t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn"t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"

"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9 Peter said to her, "How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.



Love this verse. Peter doesn't give a shat. A guy dies who gives money but not ALL money to his ministry and the guy is whacked. No worries, we don't need to tell anyone, lets just wait for the wife to show up and we will test her too. Those young dudes who just for some reason show up at the right time will bury her just like the mafia clean teams. Peter's shaking down people and has his own clean team, and this is after Jesus!

OMG. This is an extortion racket, straight out. Yes, I'm sure they both just fell down dead. Wink, wink. Why isn't this preached from the pulpits - it would certainly fill up a church's coffers quickly. Lol.
bulproof
Posts: 25,253
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12/17/2014 8:46:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 3:06:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
Act 5

5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife"s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles" feet.

3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn"t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn"t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God."

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, "Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?"

"Yes," she said, "that is the price."

9 Peter said to her, "How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also."

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.



Love this verse. Peter doesn't give a shat. A guy dies who gives money but not ALL money to his ministry and the guy is whacked. No worries, we don't need to tell anyone, lets just wait for the wife to show up and we will test her too. Those young dudes who just for some reason show up at the right time will bury her just like the mafia clean teams. Peter's shaking down people and has his own clean team, and this is after Jesus!

So endeth today's lesson. Pass the plate now.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skepticalone
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12/17/2014 10:30:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Jacob wrestles with God...

Genesis 32:24-32

24 Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. 25 When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob"s thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. 26 Then he said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." But he said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 So he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob." 28 He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed." 29 Then Jacob asked him and said, "Please tell me your name." But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved." 31 Now the sun rose upon him just as he crossed over Penuel, and he was limping on his thigh. 32 Therefore, to this day the sons of Israel do not eat the sinew of the hip which is on the socket of the thigh, because he touched the socket of Jacob"s thigh in the sinew of the hip.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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12/17/2014 10:35:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
God's attempted murder of Moses stopped by foreskin...

Exodus 4:21-26

21 The Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, "Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I said to you, "Let My son go that he may serve Me"; but you have refused to let him go. Behold, I will kill your son, your firstborn."""

24 Now it came about at the lodging place on the way that the Lord met him and sought to put him to death. 25 Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son"s foreskin and threw it at Moses" feet, and she said, "You are indeed a bridegroom of blood to me." 26 So He let him alone. At that time she said, "You are a bridegroom of blood""because of the circumcision.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten