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The Suffering of Ants

ethang5
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12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/16/2014 12:53:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

Ecclesiastes 3
19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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12/17/2014 4:59:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 12:53:17 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

Ecclesiastes 3
19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ok, BoG has posted to the thread, so it is effectively dead. I'll try again later.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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12/17/2014 8:15:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

The word isn't, but the concept is and is contradicted many times in the same book.
Apparently, schizophrenic would be a more appropriate description of your god?
That doesn't appear in the great book of magical fables either I'm afraid. Sorry.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/17/2014 9:26:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 4:59:13 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/16/2014 12:53:17 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

Ecclesiastes 3
19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ok, BoG has posted to the thread, so it is effectively dead. I'll try again later.

The Truth can stop the lies of men.
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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12/17/2014 3:48:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

Yes, but you are not omnipotent. For an omnipotent being, doing something about suffering would be a mere trifle - no effort required. You can't use the excuse that God has other fish to fry. He is supposedly omnipresent.

Read bulproof's signature.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 3:48:47 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.

Tell them God is as caring as Mother Nature and also just as cruel. They work together to create havoc and also to restore the things which they destroyed. It keeps them both amused.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

Yes, but you are not omnipotent. For an omnipotent being, doing something about suffering would be a mere trifle - no effort required. You can't use the excuse that God has other fish to fry. He is supposedly omnipresent.

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 3:48:47 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.

Tell them God is as caring as Mother Nature and also just as cruel. They work together to create havoc and also to restore the things which they destroyed. It keeps them both amused.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

Yes, but you are not omnipotent. For an omnipotent being, doing something about suffering would be a mere trifle - no effort required. You can't use the excuse that God has other fish to fry. He is supposedly omnipresent.

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/17/2014 5:42:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.

Believers also worship the same sun God today. They just changed his name to Jesus, the light of the world.
The sun still represents God the Father. The moon represents Jesus and the stars represent all humanity. That is why even some scientists believe we are all stars and came from star dust. It is a subconscious myth that has been ingrained into human thinking. It just changes its outward appearances over time. Blame Father Time for it.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,205
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12/17/2014 5:50:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:42:15 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.

Believers also worship the same sun God today. They just changed his name to Jesus, the light of the world.
The sun still represents God the Father. The moon represents Jesus and the stars represent all humanity. That is why even some scientists believe we are all stars and came from star dust. It is a subconscious myth that has been ingrained into human thinking. It just changes its outward appearances over time. Blame Father Time for it.

Factually speaking we are star dust. We are made from the same molecules as stars and billions of years of stars collapsing and reforming made the planets and everything on them. So yes Father Time plays a role but we're star dust.
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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12/17/2014 5:58:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:42:15 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.

Believers also worship the same sun God today. They just changed his name to Jesus, the light of the world.
The sun still represents God the Father. The moon represents Jesus and the stars represent all humanity. That is why even some scientists believe we are all stars and came from star dust. It is a subconscious myth that has been ingrained into human thinking. It just changes its outward appearances over time. Blame Father Time for it.

And the Earth is Mother Mary. It is now believed that the Earth was knocked up in a celestial collision creating the Moon (Jesus). They both now orbit around Father Sun in the heavens. Yeah, makes sense. Lol.
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/17/2014 7:39:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

Or even one in ten or one in a thousand humans. Hence, we can assume any of several propositions.
- God didn't create the Earth
- God doesn't care what happens to anything
- God doesn't exist

Your point? If God were all-knowing and omni-benevolent, we wouldn't be seeing the reality in which we live. So obviously, theists have it wrong. And calling any atheist "militant" because they provide an argument for your ridiculous beliefs is pure stupidity.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
Thanksfornotraping
Posts: 238
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12/17/2014 7:58:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

Realization: An all loving and all powerful God did not create the universe- we shameful sons did...
LifeMeansGodIsGood
Posts: 2,744
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12/17/2014 8:27:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

This is brilliant? The guy does not care about ants suffering, therefore he concludes God does not care about suffering? All this tells me is that somebody whose head is too big thinks that they are equal to God, and he is dying and on his way to Hell.

God grieves when He sees a sparrow die, and you are worth much more than many sparrows to God. He will end suffering for His creatures who are not in rebellion. Every creature one day will say "praise the LORD!" God does not forget or neglect the ants. God cares. How in the world a guy who thinks the fact that he does not care for ants proves God does not care for people can only be understood as an overactive mind on the brink of eternal insanity as it plunges into Hell.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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12/18/2014 1:10:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

To answer this question, I will simply say "I don't", working under the assumpt that the God you mention exists. Assuming He does exist, were He to be responsible, the tools present would be much more plain. There is a lot of convolusion regarding what and why in the Bible that doesn't quite make sense, at least when read, at least when trying to find the mystery behind such a deity.

Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

Depends on how He did it. The power that God is rumored to have is... well, nothing short of amazing. With that variety of power to sort out chaos and accident into law, it makes one wonder why it happens. PoE, let me make a twist: PoC- problem of chaos. The random hit by a bus, cancer, rear differential locks up and a car rolls wiping out the occupants and a few others on a crowded highway. There shouldn't be a need for that variety of suffering, it literally serves no purpose. A plane that comes down due to mechanical failure, one has to wonder that if a being of Omnipotence, and even a modicum of concern for humanity exists, why such a mechanical failure doesn't occur at a time when its less critical to survival. How is alzheimers doing anything other than torturing those having to watch it happen? You don't need evil to show that God doesn't have too much of a concern for us, and that is why many aspects of organized religion leave a bit to the adage of 'Well, He moves in mysterious ways', or 'It was God's plan'.

Ants and all-

On a fundamental level, I need ants. Granted, not every ant in the world, but I understand their purpose. Though its not specifically FOR me, they have a right to exist as much as I do, so I am not in the habit of exterminating them outside the bounds of my home. Living on this planet, we are all part of such a cycle. It might not be direct, but its function, and the benefit of that function can be seen. We all, in loose ways, need eachother.

God doesn't needme. He keeps me around, assuming He exists, for some variety of purpose if He indeed is my creator, that is not revealed, if He does indeed bestow blessing upon me. If He asks something of me, and punishes me for noncompliance, its to be coerced into something, that is the only reason for such a punishment.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/18/2014 3:32:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:50:14 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:42:15 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.

Believers also worship the same sun God today. They just changed his name to Jesus, the light of the world.
The sun still represents God the Father. The moon represents Jesus and the stars represent all humanity. That is why even some scientists believe we are all stars and came from star dust. It is a subconscious myth that has been ingrained into human thinking. It just changes its outward appearances over time. Blame Father Time for it.

Factually speaking we are star dust. We are made from the same molecules as stars and billions of years of stars collapsing and reforming made the planets and everything on them. So yes Father Time plays a role but we're star dust.

Then your delusions are no different to the delusions of the believers in God who believe we are earthly dust. We are made from the same substances as are found in the ground after all. That must mean we all came from the cabbage patch.
The only difference in the believers who believe we came from dust is the bull dust they argue about. Our origin is star dust. No, it's Earth dust. No, its all bull dust.
The fact is humans come from humans. They always have and always will. That is observable and factual in every generation. No man can disprove it but its easy to prove we come from humans. It is perfectly observable and obvious.
It amazes me how people refuse to believe the obvious. They want something magical and mystical or scientific sounding to make them sound smarter than everyone else. All they do is make total idiots of themselves with their religious and science fiction.
Oh yes, they all have what they claim to be evidence but its all circumstantial.
They make up great stories about the evidence they collect and those who want to believe will believe anything they are told when it fits their own delusions.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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12/18/2014 3:36:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 5:58:57 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:42:15 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.

Believers also worship the same sun God today. They just changed his name to Jesus, the light of the world.
The sun still represents God the Father. The moon represents Jesus and the stars represent all humanity. That is why even some scientists believe we are all stars and came from star dust. It is a subconscious myth that has been ingrained into human thinking. It just changes its outward appearances over time. Blame Father Time for it.

And the Earth is Mother Mary. It is now believed that the Earth was knocked up in a celestial collision creating the Moon (Jesus). They both now orbit around Father Sun in the heavens. Yeah, makes sense. Lol.

Obviously. ;-)
Don't forget the moon becomes the sun ( light of the world) at night. That represents Jesus becoming God to those who walk in darkness. ;-)

Mary is an idol too Catholics pray to her. According to them she is the mother of God.
her parents were humans. Therefore God ultimately is just a human.
Bennett91
Posts: 4,205
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12/18/2014 4:03:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 3:32:09 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:50:14 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:42:15 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:05:09 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:16:28 PM, Skyangel wrote:

Mother Nature is as omnipotent as God. The only thing she can't do is kill herself no matter how much she tries.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence. You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

You might as well worship Mother Nature because she has all the same attributes as God does. She was and is and is to come. She provides the Earth and all living things on it with all they need for survival. At least she is visible and people understand her and don't blame her for throwing a fit and destroying humans because they refuse to believe in her existence.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering. What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge? You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Mother Nature also does not need to earn your worship but she doesn't demand it either. She doesn't threaten to destroy you or burn you in hell for all eternity if you don't believe in her. She just annihilates you eventually regardless of what you believe.
It would be an honor and privilege to worship Mother Nature. We really ought to build a church in her honor, change the word God to Mother Nature in the bible and use the same book to worship her and quote her sayings. Humans are daughters of Mother Nature.
The daughter of Mother Nature is the savior of the world. Now go and build a statue that looks like a woman and worship that instead of ignoring her because she does not ask you to worship her. Maybe that will stop all the natural disasters from happening if humans gave her a bit more attention and made her happier? You know how emotional and upset women can get.

Father God and Mother Nature are one.

Nah, go back to the source of all life on Earth. The Egyptians had it right. Worship Ra the sun god.

Believers also worship the same sun God today. They just changed his name to Jesus, the light of the world.
The sun still represents God the Father. The moon represents Jesus and the stars represent all humanity. That is why even some scientists believe we are all stars and came from star dust. It is a subconscious myth that has been ingrained into human thinking. It just changes its outward appearances over time. Blame Father Time for it.

Factually speaking we are star dust. We are made from the same molecules as stars and billions of years of stars collapsing and reforming made the planets and everything on them. So yes Father Time plays a role but we're star dust.

Then your delusions are no different to the delusions of the believers in God who believe we are earthly dust. We are made from the same substances as are found in the ground after all. That must mean we all came from the cabbage patch.
The only difference in the believers who believe we came from dust is the bull dust they argue about. Our origin is star dust. No, it's Earth dust. No, its all bull dust.

Lol what? I'll let some one who knows much more than you or I explain. Where do you think the atoms that made the earth came form? https://www.youtube.com...

The fact is humans come from humans. They always have and always will. That is observable and factual in every generation. No man can disprove it but its easy to prove we come from humans. It is perfectly observable and obvious.

You don't believe in evolution do you?

It amazes me how people refuse to believe the obvious. They want something magical and mystical or scientific sounding to make them sound smarter than everyone else. All they do is make total idiots of themselves with their religious and science fiction.

Yea ... you go on thinking you have all the answers. Your "reality" is due for a check up.

Oh yes, they all have what they claim to be evidence but its all circumstantial.

As oppose to your evidence which is down right objective and definitive. Also if you've looked at their research it's not so circumstantial.

They make up great stories about the evidence they collect and those who want to believe will believe anything they are told when it fits their own delusions.
ethang5
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12/18/2014 9:32:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 3:48:47 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.

I agree that God is love. For those who do not think God is love, (and "God is Love" is NOT equal to "God is loving" - and for the stupid, I did not just say God is NOT loving) I would ask them what definition of "love" are they using? And why they think God should conform to their idea of love.

The Bible also does not say that God is ONLY love. It also says God is Just.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

Yes, but you are not omnipotent. For an omnipotent being, doing something about suffering would be a mere trifle - no effort required. You can't use the excuse that God has other fish to fry. He is supposedly omnipresent.

I don't know what you think omnipotent means, but there are things which are not affected by power. Getting a being with free will to love you, for instance. God does stop some suffering, but He cannot stop all suffering and respect free will, and He doesn't want to stop all suffering anyway. (That is one of the assumptions of the PoE which isn't true). So omnipotence is not a 100% effective "tool" for eliminating all suffering.

And when I said, "...what if God allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?" I did not mean He had other fish to fry. I meant other considerations that affect How He responds to things. God is Just, and is the one responsible for administering justice. He cannot allow the guilty to go unpunished. He would become an unfair and unjust God. He is not in a "love vacuum".

Read bulproof's signature.

bully's siggy is the same tired old PoE. If he were any smarter, he would know that the PoE has been logically defeated and dismantled even by some non-christians. But as they say, there are newbies entering the world everyday, and to them, even tired old clunkers like the PoE seem like unassailable logic.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

Then I guess someone who thinks God is omnibenevolent should answer.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence.

Are you telling me your opinion? Or are you making a statement you think is fact? If this is your opinion, thanks. I don't see what it has to do with me but I guess you think I needed to know. If you think it is a statement of fact, please support it.

You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

So does every single person who has ever worshiped the true and living God.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering.

He doesn't always act to alleviate suffering. But why should He?

What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge?

His divinity.

You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Comparing the power of anything/one else to God is absurd. By "omnipotent" the Bible means that all power anywhere within the universe and out, is His power. He doesn't simply have "more" power, He has "all" power.

There exists no power anywhere other than His. Yes, I know the concept is awesome. He flows like that.
ethang5
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12/18/2014 9:50:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 7:39:44 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

As usual, you come on with bile but will simply not answer any question.

Or even one in ten or one in a thousand humans. Hence, we can assume any of several propositions.

But you will never answer any of them.

- God didn't create the Earth

Sure He did.

- God doesn't care what happens to anything

He cares what happens to me.

- God doesn't exist

I would make myself a liar if I believed this.

Your point?

You dodge questions because you cannot have your illogical position examined.

If God were all-knowing and omni-benevolent, we wouldn't be seeing the reality in which we live.

I can't agree or disagree as I haven't a clue what omni-benevolent means. But I hope it's clear to you that the Bible and I don't think God is omni-bebevolent. An omni-benevolent God would would be a horror.

So obviously, theists have it wrong.

lol!!

Atheist: God didn't create the Earth. So obviously, theists have it wrong.

It must have become obvious right after he said it. Ah, atheist logic. It is a thing of beauty.

And calling any atheist "militant" because they provide an argument for your ridiculous beliefs is pure stupidity.

Yet when we ask you for the argument, you either can't provide it, or you make an asinine statement like "God didn't create the Earth" and then pretend that it is rock solid fact. Do you even know how to debate/argue?

Where is your argument?
dee-em
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12/18/2014 10:17:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 9:32:47 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 3:48:47 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.

I agree that God is love. For those who do not think God is love, (and "God is Love" is NOT equal to "God is loving" - and for the stupid, I did not just say God is NOT loving) I would ask them what definition of "love" are they using? And why they think God should conform to their idea of love.

Um, just how many concepts of love are there? If God is love then he would prevent suffering. The evidence is he doesn't. Therefore God is not love.

It seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You won't accept that God is omnibenevolent (which is widely accepted) because it opens you up to the PoE. Then you agree God is love but you want to equivocate on what "love" means. Nice try.

The Bible also does not say that God is ONLY love. It also says God is Just.

How is that relevant when we are talking about suffering?

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

Yes, but you are not omnipotent. For an omnipotent being, doing something about suffering would be a mere trifle - no effort required. You can't use the excuse that God has other fish to fry. He is supposedly omnipresent.

I don't know what you think omnipotent means, but there are things which are not affected by power. Getting a being with free will to love you, for instance.

No-one is asking for it. If God is love then it is in his nature.

God does stop some suffering, but He cannot stop all suffering and respect free will, and He doesn't want to stop all suffering anyway.

You are making all kinds of assertions. How can you possibly know what God does or does not want? And do you have some evidence of God stopping suffering? It's a bold statement. Where is the evidence?

Also, I don't accept the nonsense about free will. It's a cop-out that Christians use to save themselves from exactly these kinds of attacks. God apparently had no problems in interfering with free will in biblical times. There are numerous examples in the Bible. You saw one just the other day with Balaam and his donkey.

(That is one of the assumptions of the PoE which isn't true). So omnipotence is not a 100% effective "tool" for eliminating all suffering.

Let's humour you for the moment and accept that defence. What about the suffering which is not associated with an interference of free will? I'm talking about disease, natural disasters, drought and so on. Why can't an omnipotent God of love end such suffering? Why does he sit back and never intervene?

And when I said, "...what if God allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?" I did not mean He had other fish to fry. I meant other considerations that affect How He responds to things. God is Just, and is the one responsible for administering justice. He cannot allow the guilty to go unpunished. He would become an unfair and unjust God. He is not in a "love vacuum".

I've made no statement in this regard, but God doesn't respond period. That is the point.

Read bulproof's signature.

bully's siggy is the same tired old PoE. If he were any smarter, he would know that the PoE has been logically defeated and dismantled even by some non-christians. But as they say, there are newbies entering the world everyday, and to them, even tired old clunkers like the PoE seem like unassailable logic.

We'll just take your word for it, shall we, when even the Bishop of Canterbury has doubts. The truth is that the problem of evil is insoluble for Christians. They throw in the free will defence but the evidence in the Bible contradicts them.

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

I already did. It was conditional on him being omnibenevolent.

Then I guess someone who thinks God is omnibenevolent should answer.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

You don't worship the God that exists since you have no way to verify his existence.

Are you telling me your opinion? Or are you making a statement you think is fact?

Of course it's fact. You believe that God exists but you don't know.

If this is your opinion, thanks. I don't see what it has to do with me but I guess you think I needed to know. If you think it is a statement of fact, please support it.

You worship the God described in the pages of the Bible.

So does every single person who has ever worshiped the true and living God.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

But who is He? By your own admission He might or might not care, but He certainly doesn't act to alleviate our suffering.

He doesn't always act to alleviate suffering. But why should He?

Let me correct you. He never acts to alleviate suffering. If He was the God of love as you claim why is He totally indifferent?

What qualities then do you find worthy of worship? His power? His knowledge?

His divinity.

You worship God because he is God? It's a reason I suppose. Lol.

You might as well worship your president. He has power and knowledge too and he definitely exists.

Comparing the power of anything/one else to God is absurd. By "omnipotent" the Bible means that all power anywhere within the universe and out, is His power. He doesn't simply have "more" power, He has "all" power.

There exists no power anywhere other than His. Yes, I know the concept is awesome. He flows like that.

So theists claim, without evidence. Assertions without evidence ...
bulproof
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12/18/2014 11:11:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 9:32:47 AM, ethang5 wrote:
bully's siggy is the same tired old PoE. If he were any smarter, he would know that the PoE has been logically defeated and dismantled even by some non-christians. But as they say, there are newbies entering the world everyday, and to them, even tired old clunkers like the PoE seem like unassailable logic.
Wrong again as usual.
Never mind, it's how you roll..
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/18/2014 11:33:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

You are totally leaving out the point that people who purposely torture and kill animals for their own pleasure are almost always considered to be evil. It's even the most powerful sign that they'll grow-up to be sociopaths, even though they've only killed animals at this point. On the other hand, if a person does kill another person totally by accident then we don't consider them evil for their mistake, so why should we consider them evil for killing ants by mistake? It's not as simple as you make it sound.
Idealist
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12/18/2014 11:50:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 8:05:56 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 5:33:13 AM, dee-em wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

And if you claim God should care, tell us why you believe He should care, and further, why does this care saddle Him with the responsibility of alleviating all your suffering.

If not, why worship him?

I worship the God that exists, not the one I wish existed. God is good. He need not be "omnibenevolent" (whatever that means). I think "omnibenevolence" is an illogical concept. No wonder it isn't found in the Bible.

He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.

Well said ...
Amoranemix
Posts: 521
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12/19/2014 6:37:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ethang5 1
What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?
It much depends on what God exactly God does to save every ant or every human and what context he creates. Probably the population of ants respectively humans would increase, at least initially.

- dee-em 4
Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?
- ethang5 5
God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.
I don't speak for the other atheists, but I didn't make up the term omnibenevolent to bolster the PoE argument, but to provide clarity. Christians speak Christian English. It is a language with words that look and sound exactly the same as standard English, but have different meaning. That way the Christian can deceive his/her interlocutor who mistakenly believes the Christian is speaking standard English and things do not mean what they appear to mean. When a Christian says 'God is love' (Christian English) he could mean 'God loves raping children.' Understandably Christians avoid using standard English when describing God.
Benevolence and omnibenevolence are terms the Christians don't use, which helps avoid the ambiguity associated with terms like, just, mercy and righteous.
I use the following definition for omnibenevolence :
Omnibenevolence is the unimpaired desire to maximize the well-being of the exterior world.
I agree with you. God is not maximally great, meaning he does not have all three attributes omnipotence, omniscience and omnibenevolence.

- dee-em 4
If so, he should care.
ethang5 5
I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?
Anything is possible as nothing can be established with complete certainty, but the most simple explanation for inaction is often disinterest.

dee-em
That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.
Maybe they should tell those Christians they don't swing that way. :P

ethang5 5
He doesn't need my worship. My worship is not a reward He has to earn. He is more than worthy of my worship because of who He is, not because of what He does. It is my honor and privilege to worship Him.
I started a series of discussions to find out whether there could be good reasons to worship or love (standard English) God. The first was about whether there is conclusive evidence for God's benevolence (which could be a reason for thinking he deserves worship) : www.debate.org/forums/religion/topic/44152. It turns out there isn't. I plan on starting the next thread some time this millennium.

LifeMeansGodIsGood 16
God grieves when He sees a sparrow die, and you are worth much more than many sparrows to God. He will end suffering for His creatures who are not in rebellion. Every creature one day will say "praise the LORD!" God does not forget or neglect the ants. God cares.[1] How in the world a guy who thinks the fact that he does not care for ants proves God does not care for people can only be understood as an overactive mind on the brink of eternal insanity as it plunges into Hell.
[1] What evidence can you present to support those claims ?

ethang5 22
I don't know what you think omnipotent means, but there are things which are not affected by power. Getting a being with free will to love you, for instance. God does stop some suffering, but He cannot stop all suffering and respect free will, and He doesn't want to stop all suffering anyway. (That is one of the assumptions of the PoE which isn't true). So omnipotence is not a 100% effective "tool" for eliminating all suffering.
I find it interesting how weak Christians believe God to be despite his omnipotence. In stead of amazing people with all the things he can do, he is disappointing them with all the things can't do, at least those people who aren't already infatuated with him. God's omnipotence is great for inciting worship from his followers, but it doesn't allow him to actually do anything useful.

ethang5
bully's siggy is the same tired old PoE. If he were any smarter, he would know that the PoE has been logically defeated and dismantled even by some non-christians. But as they say, there are newbies entering the world everyday, and to them, even tired old clunkers like the PoE seem like unassailable logic.
I don't know what you mean with 'logically defeated', but the PoE has not been refuted or successfully challenged to my knowledge. However, it does not challenge the existence of a malevolent God. So your god falls outside its scope. I think a reason why many Christians think the PoE is weak because they worship a malevolent god that they believe to be benevolent.

dee-em 24
Of course it's fact. You believe that God exists but you [ethang5] don't know.
Some people can know falsehoods.
The earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth.
ethang5
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12/19/2014 10:27:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 11:33:33 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/16/2014 10:45:52 AM, ethang5 wrote:
The following post was made by Illegalcombatant, a virulent anti-theist militant. I haven't seen any posts from him for a while. Perhaps Airmax figured out he was a multi-accounter.

But this post is amazing because he unknowingly stumbles onto epiphany. He notices within himself that he doesn't care about the suffering of ants. And he thinks, If I don't care about the suffering of ants, why should I think God cares about the suffering of humans? This is brilliant, but alas, he stops short of the finish line.

I often ask atheists this when they bring up that tired clunker called the PoE. "What makes you think God is the one responsible for saving you/mankind from suffering?"

Illegalcombatant gets right up to the question and then fails to see it, much less answer it. He concludes that God must not care. But he never questions why he thinks God should care.

People love to try and link morality and God, some theists see this as a trump card, after all if there is no God why shouldn't I just go rape, kill and listen to rap music ?

IF some one was to grab a child, cut there various limbs off, and cook them and eat them, this would be described as evil, and moral outrage would ensue. But do the same thing to a chicken........well that's just delicious.

Here is the first point, I think we can all agree this kind of "morality" ain't coming from the chicken. Here we have one species being selective about what it can kill and eat... humans bad chicken good.

Does anyone see God ordained morality at work here ? I don't, I just see a morality of convenience...........well convenient for the humans not the chicken.

Okey how about child rape, surely this is evil is the sight of God, right ? not so fast. Just because you care about something, doesn't mean God does.

Consider when some flood comes along takes a baby from a mothers arm and is then drowned we don't like this, but, also consider that during every flood that drowns a child there are a bunch of ants got drowned too, but of course we don't give a sh*t about that.

Now here is the deal, there is no more reason to think that even if a God exists it cares anymore about a child drowning or child rape than you do about an ant drowning. How much do you care about an ant drowning ? I will take a guess some where between couldn't care less and couldn't give a flying f*ck.

The point here being you can't take what we care about, yes even in the case where our emotions of rage are produced such as child rape or a child drowned, then conclude well God hates that too.


So once you get passed our own human emotions say concerning child rape, and understanding you can't deduced our own human emotion of hating something to therefor God hates that something, what reason do we have to believe God even gives a flying f*ck about a child being raped or drowned anymore than a drowning ant ?

I would like to point out we don't really see much divine intervention when it comes to saving drowning ants, and we don't see much divine intervention when it comes to child rape.

I suspect people will disregard this, people can easily comprehend a God who doesn't give a rats about a drowning ant, but the proposition that God doesn't care about child rape is intolerable.......despite the evidence.

I am forming the view that God cares just as much about child rape or a child drowning or any kind of child harm just as much as a drowning ant.

Dear humans, you are not the center of the universe or the apple of Gods eye, please get over yourselves.


Wow. He was soooo close. Wish I had seen this post when he put it out.

What would happen if God saved every ant from dying? Would the world be a better place? How about every human?

You are totally leaving out the point that people who purposely torture and kill animals for their own pleasure are almost always considered to be evil. It's even the most powerful sign that they'll grow-up to be sociopaths, even though they've only killed animals at this point. On the other hand, if a person does kill another person totally by accident then we don't consider them evil for their mistake, so why should we consider them evil for killing ants by mistake? It's not as simple as you make it sound.

As I make it sound, or as the author I quote makes it sound?
ethang5
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12/19/2014 11:27:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 10:17:43 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/18/2014 9:32:47 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Is the god you believe in omnibenevolent?

God is not omnibenevolent. That is a term made up by atheists to bolster the lame PoE argument. The Bible does not say He is.

That's certainly true and I can respect that position. But what should we say to those Christians who tell us God Is love then? They go on and on about a loving god, as you must be aware.

I agree that God is love. For those who do not think God is love, (and "God is Love" is NOT equal to "God is loving" - and for the stupid, I did not just say God is NOT loving) I would ask them what definition of "love" are they using? And why they think God should conform to their idea of love.

Um, just how many concepts of love are there? If God is love then he would prevent suffering.

It is really that simple? My human father loved me but did not stop all my suffering he was able to stop. Yet I know he was loving. I can imagine the same truth with God. The fact is that atheists have to keep it that simplistic or the lack of logic in their argument shows through. The PoE is really meant for the 8 year old mind.

The evidence is he doesn't. Therefore God is not love.

It is clear that your idea of love is someone waiting on you hand and foot, and taking the consequences for your willfully stupid actions. Christianity is for adults. Love is for adults. Perhaps there is a "God" out there who will think being your personal genie is swell. That ain't Jehovah.

It seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You won't accept that God is omnibenevolent (which is widely accepted) because it opens you up to the PoE.

I don't accept it for two logical reasons you have not refuted. First, the Bible contradicts it. And as you know, I believe the Bible over all else. Second, the concept is illogical, and I tend not to intellectually entertain illogical ideas. I'm weird that way.

Then you agree God is love but you want to equivocate on what "love" means. Nice try.

There is no need for stupidity. Love doesn't mean God is your genie. Love doesn't mean God serves you. God is love, God is not an idiot. He is not subject to your childish and immature definition of love.

The Bible also does not say that God is ONLY love. It also says God is Just.

How is that relevant when we are talking about suffering?

Because sometimes a judge has to convict. Sometimes a judge has to punish.

If so, he should care.

I care about ants suffering, but that doesn't translate automatically into me doing something about it because my life has more context than just me and ants. Is it not possible that God cares AND yet allows it to happen for reasons having nothing to do with your suffering?

Yes, but you are not omnipotent. For an omnipotent being, doing something about suffering would be a mere trifle - no effort required. You can't use the excuse that God has other fish to fry. He is supposedly omnipresent.

I don't know what you think omnipotent means, but there are things which are not affected by power. Getting a being with free will to love you, for instance.

No-one is asking for it.

No one is asking for what?

If God is love then it is in his nature.

That doesn't mean He will ALWAYS relieve suffering, or that He CAN always relieve suffering.

God does stop some suffering, but He cannot stop all suffering and respect free will, and He doesn't want to stop all suffering anyway.

You are making all kinds of assertions. How can you possibly know what God does or does not want?

I know because the Bible tells me so. And, no, I don't care that you don't believe it. Your disbelief does not affect the Bible one bit.

And do you have some evidence of God stopping suffering? It's a bold statement. Where is the evidence?

He has saved, soothed and comforted me many times. And I have the same testimony from dozens of friends and hundreds of Christian brothers and sisters. But God doesn't plant a sign every time he mercifully saves us from suffering.

Also, I don't accept the nonsense about free will. It's a cop-out that Christians use to save themselves from exactly these kinds of attacks.

So we can either yell "cop out" at each other, or we can debate points like logical adults.

God apparently had no problems in interfering with free will in biblical times. There are numerous examples in the Bible. You saw one just the other day with Balaam and his donkey.

God does no wrong if the person has given Him the authority over their will. For example, I am His. I have agreed to to have His will supersede mine at His slightest whim. When He commands me, it is my will that He command me. This is true of all His servants. Of which Balaam was one.

Let's humour you for the moment and accept that defence. What about the suffering which is not associated with an interference of free will? I'm talking about disease, natural disasters, drought and so on. Why can't an omnipotent God of love end such suffering? Why does he sit back and never intervene?

He does NOT sit back and never intervene. But even then, your question would remain. The answer requires you to think, but alas, most atheist do not ask the question for an answer.

Your difficulty comes in because you have a different morality than God. You think human suffering is the greatest evil there is, so you think that should also be the priority of God. But God does not subscribe to your blind and selfish morality. He knows that there are things worse than suffering. He know that suffering is not always evil. And He knows that the greatest good comes from doing it His way.

Many of the things you claim are not associated with an interference of free will, are in fact consequences of our free will choices. The bottom line is that people who bring up the PoE, want God to save them from suffering without them have any obligation to Him at all. They want God to be their personal genie. It doesn't work that way.

God has promised us that He will end all suffering, and without violating our free will. But we must trust Him. We must respect Him. Not because He is vain but because of the same reason your toddler must obey you. It's for our own safety.

You have to let God make his case. He tells us that we cannot see all there is, and that our perception is not 100% true to reality. So He has to educate us on the actual dangers we face. He has to show us that there are things far worse than suffering.

But if you think it's all nonsense, and refuse to at least understand, it's your free will right, but then you never get to see what He sees. You never get to know whats actually up. And you miss out on His plan to stop suffering once and for all.

It will be ironic that atheists, so humanely concerned about human suffering, will find that they worked tirelessly on the symptoms and passed up on the cure.