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Cerebral_Narcissist asks:

DATCMOTO
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5/24/2010 4:33:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You say that Jesus is God.
According to you Jesus claimed he was God.
He is God because The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are the three facets of the single Godhead. God in three parts, one single God. The trinity.

So why, when languishing on the cross did Jesus, who lets remember is God and God is omniscient etc, why does he say 'God why have you forsaken me'.

This surely means that,
1: The trinity is false.
2: The Trinity is poorly described by you, what is it, a bit like the Glory/Ben deal in Buffy... one God two separate minds?
3: That passage of the bible is invalid (which raises other quesions).


Ok, I have made a new thread of this as I don't want it to be lost in the mêlée of my 'Don't look down!' topic.

First, let us notice that IMPLICIT within C_N's question

(So why, when languishing on the cross did Jesus, who lets remember is God and God is omniscient etc, why does he say 'God why have you forsaken me'.)

IS a " IF the Bible is true, IF Christian doctrine is logical with itself, then WHY does this irregularity exist? "

This means that WHEN (as I am about to do) I explain the logic of our belief using a solid scriptural basis, C_N may NOT quietly slip out of the context of his own question into the broader scope of so-called reality.. He may not simply ignore the new information and resort and to personal attacks.

OR.. he may do those things, (it's what he's consistently done until now) BUT he may not hold his head high and he certainly may not say he desires truth.

Cerebral_Narcisist, I am handing you the gift of your own truth, I strongly suggest you accept.

OK, back to the question in hand:

So why, when languishing on the cross did Jesus, who lets remember is God and God is omniscient etc, why does he say 'God why have you forsaken me'.

First, IS Jesus God?

Yes!

IS Jesus ALL of God?

No! He is His Word, the True Expression of His Character..

IS my finger me?

Yes!

Is it ALL of me?

No!

Consider:

John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God's Word became a Man, and as a Man He cried out to His God, actually He was quoting scripture, a psalm I believe.

Once again, If you wish to CHOOSE not to believe, that is your funeral, but you cannot say that WE do not understand the EVER SO SIMPLE and B.E.A.utiful Truth of the gospel.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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5/24/2010 11:35:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Some teach that it was at that instant the Father laid all the sins of the world on Jesus shoulders. Another favored take on it that leads to inspiring sermons is that at that instant Jesus had to experience separation from God the Father.

The very simple explanation though is Jesus was just making a reference to Psalms 22. http://www.biblegateway.com... when reading it, unless your particularly brain damaged the parallels with whats described in psalm 22 with the story of the Passion of Christ should be obvious. Christ quotes from old testament frequently in the Gospels, especially the book of Isiah, So its very likely he was making a reference to that.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 1:45:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think he said that God has different consciousnesses in him

there's father God.
HS god
and Jesus God.

Fine by me. I don't particularly care if your god has 1 head 3 or 12

hands, tentacles, meatballs, whatever.

When there's no support to believe in the "thing" at hand....

who cares about knowing the supposed support for the details.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 1:47:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:45:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
who cares about knowing the supposed support for the details.

It's like arguing if Unicorns hoofs are made of Diamonds or Marble.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/24/2010 1:50:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

I'll give this a shot, what's your specific question? I don't understand how the question that Christ asks is incompatible with the trinity.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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5/24/2010 1:53:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:50:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

I'll give this a shot, what's your specific question? I don't understand how the question that Christ asks is incompatible with the trinity.

I think he's trying to ask how Christians can believe Jesus is God while he seems to be praying to God. Something like that.
innomen
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5/24/2010 1:59:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:53:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:50:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

I'll give this a shot, what's your specific question? I don't understand how the question that Christ asks is incompatible with the trinity.

I think he's trying to ask how Christians can believe Jesus is God while he seems to be praying to God. Something like that.

Oh, well he prayed to his Father all throughout the new testament. It is one of the paradoxes of being man and the son of God and being part of God. They are one and yet they are of their own individual at the same time. Saint Patrick explained it easily enough with the shamrock.
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 2:01:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:59:31 PM, innomen wrote:
Oh, well he prayed to his Father all throughout the new testament. It is one of the paradoxes of being man and the son of God and being part of God. They are one and yet they are of their own individual at the same time. Saint Patrick explained it easily enough with the shamrock.

and why do we believe that such a three part god exists???
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
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5/24/2010 2:05:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:01:47 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:59:31 PM, innomen wrote:
Oh, well he prayed to his Father all throughout the new testament. It is one of the paradoxes of being man and the son of God and being part of God. They are one and yet they are of their own individual at the same time. Saint Patrick explained it easily enough with the shamrock.

and why do we believe that such a three part god exists???

We? Well, i don't really care about such stuff, but if i were to answer your question, it would be something along the lines of scripture supports such faith.
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 2:08:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:05:41 PM, innomen wrote:
Well, i don't really care about such stuff

do you think the vatican has any right to the name Catholic???

or do you think you can just use it regardless of how other people do.

Because the church of The Vatican is quite unbending on the doctrine of the Trinity.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/24/2010 2:09:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

He did answer your question. He said Jesus is the finger of God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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5/24/2010 2:14:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:08:37 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:05:41 PM, innomen wrote:
Well, i don't really care about such stuff

do you think the vatican has any right to the name Catholic???
Um, well it means from the chair - i think, and I don't think they have any copy rights to it. Technically they're (we're) Roman Catholic.

or do you think you can just use it regardless of how other people do.
Yep

Because the church of The Vatican is quite unbending on the doctrine of the Trinity.
So?
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 2:15:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:14:01 PM, innomen wrote:
Because the church of The Vatican is quite unbending on the doctrine of the Trinity.
So?

do you consider yourself as belonging to the church of the vatican?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/24/2010 2:15:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:15:10 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:14:01 PM, innomen wrote:
Because the church of The Vatican is quite unbending on the doctrine of the Trinity.
So?

do you consider yourself as belonging to the church of the vatican?

why?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/24/2010 2:16:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
why?

but then again, why would one believe in God anyhow...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/24/2010 2:17:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:15:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:15:10 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:14:01 PM, innomen wrote:
Because the church of The Vatican is quite unbending on the doctrine of the Trinity.
So?

do you consider yourself as belonging to the church of the vatican?

why?

"Belonging"? Well i consider myself a member, i was baptized an confirmed, and i attend regularly.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/24/2010 2:19:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:17:29 PM, innomen wrote:
"Belonging"? Well i consider myself a member, i was baptized an confirmed, and i attend regularly.

I was baptized and confirmed, go to their thrift shop weekly, and attend mass annually :)

However, I think the club isn't so much about going through the motions.

I'm pretty sure it's more about believing in the same stuff.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/24/2010 2:20:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:16:16 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
why?

but then again, why would one believe in God anyhow...

Wow, you really like to derail topics. Not all questions of religion have to boil down to the existence of God.

This is a question that requires an entire debate.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 2:23:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:20:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:16:16 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
why?

but then again, why would one believe in God anyhow...

Wow, you really like to derail topics. Not all questions of religion have to boil down to the existence of God.

This is a question that requires an entire debate.

I was more saying I didn't necessarily expect an answer.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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5/24/2010 2:23:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:19:48 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:17:29 PM, innomen wrote:
"Belonging"? Well i consider myself a member, i was baptized an confirmed, and i attend regularly.

I was baptized and confirmed, go to their thrift shop weekly, and attend mass annually :)

However, I think the club isn't so much about going through the motions.

I'm pretty sure it's more about believing in the same stuff.

Well, on the big stuff we agree, on the dogma, well - that's just silly. I mean pergatory...Really? Come on. My faith is pretty strong, and i find some things in the church really helpful to my spirituality.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/24/2010 2:26:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:50:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).


Erm...

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

I'll give this a shot, what's your specific question? I don't understand how the question that Christ asks is incompatible with the trinity.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/24/2010 2:27:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 1:59:31 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:53:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:50:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

I'll give this a shot, what's your specific question? I don't understand how the question that Christ asks is incompatible with the trinity.

I think he's trying to ask how Christians can believe Jesus is God while he seems to be praying to God. Something like that.

Oh, well he prayed to his Father all throughout the new testament. It is one of the paradoxes of being man and the son of God and being part of God. They are one and yet they are of their own individual at the same time. Saint Patrick explained it easily enough with the shamrock.

Aren't paradoxes things that can not exist?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
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5/24/2010 2:28:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
[John 14:28] "The Father is greater than I."

[John 5:30] "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

Words of a Prophet, not God.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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5/24/2010 2:28:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:08:37 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:05:41 PM, innomen wrote:
Well, i don't really care about such stuff

do you think the vatican has any right to the name Catholic???

or do you think you can just use it regardless of how other people do.

Because the church of The Vatican is quite unbending on the doctrine of the Trinity.

No, that term belongs to the Orthodox or no one at all.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/24/2010 2:28:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:23:29 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:19:48 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:17:29 PM, innomen wrote:
"Belonging"? Well i consider myself a member, i was baptized an confirmed, and i attend regularly.

I was baptized and confirmed, go to their thrift shop weekly, and attend mass annually :)

However, I think the club isn't so much about going through the motions.

I'm pretty sure it's more about believing in the same stuff.

Well, on the big stuff we agree, on the dogma, well - that's just silly.

The Bible is silly? Do you only accept parts of the Bible? If so, you reject it as the infallible word of God.

I mean pergatory...Really?

Pergatory is a crazy idea but not Hell? I think purgatory at least gives people a second chance.

Come on. My faith is pretty strong, and i find some things in the church really helpful to my spirituality.

Does your spirituality rely on the Bible? What is your spiritual goal?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
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5/24/2010 2:29:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:26:11 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:50:03 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 1:31:44 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I directly confront you with a specific point of Christian theology, all you can is insult and evade?

One more time.

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).


Erm...

Given the doctrine of the trinity, how is it that when Jesus is suffering on the cross he asks "Lord why hast thou forsaken me?" (or whatever the exact wording is).

I'll give this a shot, what's your specific question? I don't understand how the question that Christ asks is incompatible with the trinity.

Backtrack on the thread. I still don't understand the big gotcha on that point. There are such bigger holes to point to than that.
mattrodstrom
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5/24/2010 2:30:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:23:29 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:19:48 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:17:29 PM, innomen wrote:
"Belonging"? Well i consider myself a member, i was baptized an confirmed, and i attend regularly.

I was baptized and confirmed, go to their thrift shop weekly, and attend mass annually :)

However, I think the club isn't so much about going through the motions.

I'm pretty sure it's more about believing in the same stuff.

Well, on the big stuff we agree, on the dogma, well - that's just silly. I mean pergatory...Really? Come on. My faith is pretty strong, and i find some things in the church really helpful to my spirituality.

See... I can understand.

I think that's how the GREAT majority of catholics see their affiliation.

BUT if anyone higher up said that publicly they'd be told to repent... or they'd eventually be excommunicated if they didn't leave on their own terms.

don't you find that bothersome?

why continue claiming membership with a group which officially does things you wouldn't support?

The Dogma is The Catholic Church

that's all that differentiates it.

well, granted most protestants are crazy, and the homilys are cool... but THE Church/ The Vatican is a baseless construct and is out of line with many supposed catholics

I'd like to hear suchcatholics speak their mind together loud and clear and hear what the Vatican has to say.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/24/2010 2:30:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/24/2010 2:28:45 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:23:29 PM, innomen wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:19:48 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/24/2010 2:17:29 PM, innomen wrote:
"Belonging"? Well i consider myself a member, i was baptized an confirmed, and i attend regularly.

I was baptized and confirmed, go to their thrift shop weekly, and attend mass annually :)

However, I think the club isn't so much about going through the motions.

I'm pretty sure it's more about believing in the same stuff.

Well, on the big stuff we agree, on the dogma, well - that's just silly.

The Bible is silly? Do you only accept parts of the Bible? If so, you reject it as the infallible word of God.

I mean pergatory...Really?

Pergatory is a crazy idea but not Hell? I think purgatory at least gives people a second chance.


Purgatory at least has a valid theological basis, hell does not.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.