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my problems with christianity

ask21771
Posts: 26
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12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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12/17/2014 2:27:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

Luckily Bible also tells that Jesus was a man. :)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

I don"t see any reason to believe that.

And actually If we believe the Bible story, it does not mean that there couldn"t have happened some kind of "evolution" (I would rather say devolution). After all, according to the story, after the great flood, there were just 8 people. Because they were relatives, we can assume that they were similar looking. However today we have many different skin colors and other differences. So it is possible that some "evolution" has happened. I just don"t see any reason to believe that all species have evolved from single species, because we don"t have any good reason to believe so.

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

I think Bible has really universal message of love, people just have not understood and don"t really even know well what the Bible tells.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16
Gentorev
Posts: 2,938
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12/17/2014 4:33:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote......... There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man.

The operative word here, being "WAS."

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom i am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was hear to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

Jesus, who was resurrected on the first day of the festival of first fruits, is the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. The first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son. Jesus was the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of our heavenly saviour, the body of brilliant and blinding light, which was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

Jesus who said to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I ascend to him who is my Father and their Father, to my God who is their God."

Jesus in his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute."

Jesus, who we once knew as a man, who says in Revelation 3: 21; "To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne,(Which is the throne of our Father) Just as I have been victorious and now sit beside my/our Father on his throne."

Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear THE IMAGE OF Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord that will dwell among mankind and which is to replace God"s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, MAN was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN who is crowned with glory, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, the first of many brothers and sisters who are to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son.

Jesus, the first to win the victory was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites all who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father"s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and Invisible, which includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.
ask21771
Posts: 26
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12/17/2014 8:28:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 4:33:45 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote......... There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man.


The operative word here, being "WAS."

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom i am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was hear to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

Jesus, who was resurrected on the first day of the festival of first fruits, is the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. The first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son. Jesus was the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of our heavenly saviour, the body of brilliant and blinding light, which was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

Jesus who said to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I ascend to him who is my Father and their Father, to my God who is their God."

Jesus in his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute."

Jesus, who we once knew as a man, who says in Revelation 3: 21; "To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne,(Which is the throne of our Father) Just as I have been victorious and now sit beside my/our Father on his throne."

Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear THE IMAGE OF Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord that will dwell among mankind and which is to replace God"s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, MAN was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN who is crowned with glory, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, the first of many brothers and sisters who are to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son.

Jesus, the first to win the victory was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites all who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father"s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and Invisible, which includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

If you're just gonna throw scripture on my face don't both responding either talk like a real human being or not at all
Gentorev
Posts: 2,938
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12/17/2014 8:44:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 8:28:26 PM, ask21771 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:33:45 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote......... There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man.


The operative word here, being "WAS."

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom i am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was hear to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

Jesus, who was resurrected on the first day of the festival of first fruits, is the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. The first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son. Jesus was the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of our heavenly saviour, the body of brilliant and blinding light, which was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

Jesus who said to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I ascend to him who is my Father and their Father, to my God who is their God."

Jesus in his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute."

Jesus, who we once knew as a man, who says in Revelation 3: 21; "To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne,(Which is the throne of our Father) Just as I have been victorious and now sit beside my/our Father on his throne."

Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear THE IMAGE OF Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord that will dwell among mankind and which is to replace God"s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, MAN was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN who is crowned with glory, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, the first of many brothers and sisters who are to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son.

Jesus, the first to win the victory was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites all who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father"s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and Invisible, which includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

If you're just gonna throw scripture on my face don't both responding either talk like a real human being or not at all

Oh, I see, you want to discredit the bible, of which you are obviously totally ignorant and yet forbid a believer to defend the book by qualifying the truths that are revealed therein.

Bad luck matey. I will continue to respond to any attack on God's word, by using God's word as my weapon.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,641
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12/17/2014 10:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.

Whew! Looks like you dodged a bullet there, ask21771.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
ask21771
Posts: 26
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12/18/2014 5:12:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.

And as long as you refuse to listen to anything but a 2014 yearold book you'll remain stuck in a delusion
seeker620
Posts: 1
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12/18/2014 1:17:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 8:28:26 PM, ask21771 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 4:33:45 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote......... There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man.


The operative word here, being "WAS."

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom i am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was hear to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

Jesus, who was resurrected on the first day of the festival of first fruits, is the first fruits to be harvested from the body of mankind. The first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son. Jesus was the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of our heavenly saviour, the body of brilliant and blinding light, which was torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

Jesus who said to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Go to my brothers and tell them that I ascend to him who is my Father and their Father, to my God who is their God."

Jesus in his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, who, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute."

Jesus, who we once knew as a man, who says in Revelation 3: 21; "To those who win the victory I will give the right to sit beside me on my throne,(Which is the throne of our Father) Just as I have been victorious and now sit beside my/our Father on his throne."

Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear THE IMAGE OF Jesus, "The Second Adam," (in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord that will dwell among mankind and which is to replace God"s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, MAN was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN who is crowned with glory, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, the first of many brothers and sisters who are to be conformed to the image of God"s only begotten Son.

Jesus, the first to win the victory was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites all who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father"s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and Invisible, which includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

If you're just gonna throw scripture on my face don't both responding either talk like a real human being or not at all

I was raised in a Christian home, so it was very hard for me when I began to struggle with my belief system. I believe in Jesus as a historical figure. I believe the Bible was written by man. I will focus more on Christianity more than other religions, because like I said before it was the one I was raised within. I was around 10 years old sitting in church when the pastor said " You either believe the whole Bible or none at all, because it is the word of God" I thought of the way he preached about original sin, and I thought that it was very cruel. I likened it to me murdering someone and my little brother taking the punishment just because he was family. I would ask what I thought were legitimate questions about God and faith only to be told that I was not to question. Well how can I not question God's goodness when there are passages such as:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
I Corinthians 14:34-35

If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
Exodus 21.7

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have-- you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you.
Leviticus 25-44

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

I guess those passages depend on how they are interpreted, but to me it spoke intolerance and cruelty. I am not saying I am right, it is just how I view and interpret them personally. Having these thoughts and feelings was a very scary thing for me because it went against everything I was taught.

As I continued into adulthood I kept grasping for a faith that fit me exactly and found nothing. I respect Christianity and other religions for the golden rule. I respect Pagan and Native religions for love of Earth and not taking more than you need. I do not consider myself an atheist. I also do not believe in organized religion. Religion in my opinion evolves with time, or one religion branches out into others. Christianity isn't the oldest religion and there are many others practiced today, and many others came before it. I think there are peaceful people and extremists in all religions. I have no problem with anyone's religious beliefs and do not want to mock anyone's God. I do believe you should treat others as you would like to be treated. For me personally I do believe a higher power set things into motion. I don't ignore progress in science. I choose to figure things out in my own way. My beliefs will change as I learn. I don't need a fear of a deity to be a good person, have morals, or try to do right by others, but I have nothing against people who need religion to feel grounded, and have a sense of belonging to something bigger as long as my rights and the rights of others are not infringed upon. I don't get offended if someone says Merry Christmas, as I am not offended if you don't celebrate at all ( I believe every day is important and equal)

I gave up on putting a label on myself. I don't believe in a literal heaven or hell, but while I am here I am going to live, love, and enjoy myself. I believe in an afterlife for the simple fact that I am made of energy, and energy never dies. Will I come back as another person, a plant, an animal, or will I just be stardust in the cosmos? I don't have those answers, and I have finally become OK with that. I appreciate the differences in people, and I think we should be tolerant to one another. If we were all the same the world would be a really boring place!
bornofgod
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12/18/2014 7:59:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 5:12:22 AM, ask21771 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.

And as long as you refuse to listen to anything but a 2014 yearold book you'll remain stuck in a delusion

I only listen to our Creator who taught me about the past, present, future and how we were created in His consciousness. The Bible can't teach anything because it can't speak.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/18/2014 8:31:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/17/2014 2:27:20 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

Luckily Bible also tells that Jesus was a man. :)

I sincerely hope you are joking. For almost anything else, we need more than one text to verify, and I don't think we can count the bible as one text, due to its extreme bias in the issue of Jesus existing (in other words, it has a huge incentive to say Jesus is real)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Prove that without the bible. If your only proof of the bible is the bible, than you are just believing without evidence. If the argument for a different religion was all comprised of arguments from their holy books, you might have something to say about the credibility of their arguments.

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

I don"t see any reason to believe that.

Aside from all of the evidence?

And actually If we believe the Bible story, it does not mean that there couldn"t have happened some kind of "evolution" (I would rather say devolution). After all, according to the story, after the great flood, there were just 8 people. Because they were relatives, we can assume that they were similar looking. However today we have many different skin colors and other differences. So it is possible that some "evolution" has happened. I just don"t see any reason to believe that all species have evolved from single species, because we don"t have any good reason to believe so.

Okay, first of all, you used quotation marks in 'couldn't' instaed of an apostraphe.
Secondly, I am unsure you know the definition of the word devolution, as it is mostly a political term, and in the biological sense refers to the degredation of species over time.

Thirdly, we have pretty good reason to believe that all species evolved from one. Here is a crash course in evolutionary evidence (I'm not citing anything due to the amount of work that would take for a potentially disinterested person, but if you are truly interested, I encourage you to go to a museam, look it up online, or ask me and I'll do it for you)

1. DNA evidence

All organic species on earth have a similar genetic code. Animals like Apes share almost all of the same DNA with humans, and we see a natural tree of descent occur by lining up animals based on DNA similarity and disimilarity

2. Fossil records

We have fossils of species that share charactaristics of species that currently exist, with some variations, as well as species that are incredibly old, telling us by radiometric dating not only that the fossil is old, but the earth itself. And if humans by your admittance can evolve slightly different traits over a period two thousand years, how much can species change over millions?

3. Vestigial structures

Basically, they are structures in our body (like the cocyx) which once served a purpose (the cocyx was a tailbone, which fits with the fact that we share a close common ancestor with Apes), but have either been repurposed (I believe it is currently a hub for nerves or something) or have lost their purpose but remained (like certain internal organs we possess). There are plenty of examples of Vestigial structures if you look them up.

4. Fossil placement

Certain fossils have been found in places where animals could not have been near each other. Large land animals being found in large numbers on South America and Africa, places that have been geographically separated even to most birds for many years. This once again, points to a longer timeline of the earth, another support of evolution.

5. Observed evolution

We have seen evolution occur. We have seen certain very small and quick breeding organisms change and be unable to breed with others that were originally of its species (that's crossing the species line). You cant see it in Lions (as changes are slow and lions take many years to mature and reproduce), but if you have a couple years, you can observe it in bacteria and insects.

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

I think Bible has really universal message of love, people just have not understood and don"t really even know well what the Bible tells.

He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for God is love.
1 John 4:8
We know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.
1 John 4:16

Is love having non-believers burn in hell? Or people put up to bad deeds by unlucky circumstances? What about children who die before they can really choose a religion that isn't their parents? What about floods or natural disasters or famines?

Look, it isn't evil to allow some bad things to happen. If life is really a test, than we need some adversity, but why does evil seem so random? Why do some people have no adversity to face, while others get thrown in hell for potentially being told about Christianity, but not really knowing anything about it beyond their community telling them "Jesus= bad"?
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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12/19/2014 2:03:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 8:31:13 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Prove that without the bible.

The point of that scripture was to show that according to the Bible, Jesus is a man. I think it is not possible to prove without Bible what Bible says.

Thirdly, we have pretty good reason to believe that all species evolved from one.

Sorry, you didn"t show any good reason, only easy yarn and farfetched assumptions that are really not good reason to believe in evolution miracle.

1. DNA evidence

Could also be evidence for that we are created by same being.

We have fossils of species that share charactaristics of species that currently exist, with some variations, as well as species that are incredibly old, telling us by radiometric dating not only that the fossil is old, but the earth itself. And if humans by your admittance can evolve slightly different traits over a period two thousand years, how much can species change over millions?

Fossils only show that we have had many kinds of species and it seems that the number of species is constantly decreasing.

Ideas that all species have been evolved from single species is in my opinion absurd, unless someone can breed for example mouse to fish, which should easily to be possible, if evolution theory is correct.

Basically, they are structures in our body (like the cocyx) which once served a purpose (the cocyx was a tailbone, which fits with the fact that we share a close common ancestor with Apes),

I don"t think it is a remnant of tailbone, because it is important for several muscles.

"it is an important attachment for various muscles"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

The whole theory that it is useless and remnant is ridiculous, if we believe that it is important for various muscles.

Certain fossils have been found in places where animals could not have been near each other. Large land animals being found in large numbers on South America and Africa, places that have been geographically separated even to most birds for many years. This once again, points to a longer timeline of the earth, another support of evolution.

I think that is wrong conclusion. The great flood theory can explain most fossil findings as well.

http://www.kolumbus.fi...

We have seen evolution occur. We have seen certain very small and quick breeding organisms change and be unable to breed with others that were originally of its species (that's crossing the species line). You cant see it in Lions (as changes are slow and lions take many years to mature and reproduce), but if you have a couple years, you can observe it in bacteria and insects.

I can accept that small changes can happen, because that is obvious, if we believe what the Bible tells. (For example different colored people after the great flood).

What about children who die before they can really choose a religion that isn't their parents?

According to the Bible, eternal life depends on is person righteous, not on is he religious. I think anyone could be righteous.

What about floods or natural disasters or famines?

People wanted to know evil and good like God, therefore we are in this world, where evil things may happen at "random".

If life is really a test, than we need some adversity, but why does evil seem so random?

I think the reason is that then we could know what Godless life would mean.

Why do some people have no adversity to face, while others get thrown in hell for potentially being told about Christianity, but not really knowing anything about it beyond their community telling them "Jesus= bad"?

Righteousness is the criteria. I think it is possible to be righteous, even if person has not heard of Jesus.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

And the judgment is really by this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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12/20/2014 5:02:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 5:12:22 AM, ask21771 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.

And as long as you refuse to listen to anything but a 2014 yearold book you'll remain stuck in a delusion

What is the expiration date on truth?

If a book says 2+3=5, how old does the book have to be before we can chuck it?
bulproof
Posts: 25,296
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12/20/2014 5:52:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2014 5:02:39 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 5:12:22 AM, ask21771 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.

And as long as you refuse to listen to anything but a 2014 yearold book you'll remain stuck in a delusion

What is the expiration date on truth?

If a book says 2+3=5, how old does the book have to be before we can chuck it?

Just as soon as the same book says that the Earth existed before the stars.
Or maybe that the flat earth had a solid dome containing the sun, moon and stars covering it and holding back a sh1t load of non existent water.
That would be a good time to chuck it.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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12/20/2014 8:48:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2014 5:52:09 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/20/2014 5:02:39 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 5:12:22 AM, ask21771 wrote:
At 12/17/2014 9:52:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/17/2014 12:25:48 PM, ask21771 wrote:
My arguments are intellectual and moral based and are the following

Intellectual

1. There's no proof outside of the bible that Jesus was anything other then a man

2. Valid scientific arguments like evolution and astrophysics make the creation story genesis fictional

3. Near Death experiences discredit the rules of the bible in favor of a universal message of love

Moral
My moral argument can be summed up in this video https://www.youtube.com...

However the video is an hour long so if you don't want to watch it here's my verbal argument

The very fact that even the worst human beings deserve hell let alone people who don't follow a system that has no moral value is beyond cruel and evil and an all loving god can't hate sin or anything

As long as you don't listen to the voice of God that I've been testifying to in this forum for the past 1 1/2 years, you will keep being deceived by what you observe in this world.

And as long as you refuse to listen to anything but a 2014 yearold book you'll remain stuck in a delusion

What is the expiration date on truth?

If a book says 2+3=5, how old does the book have to be before we can chuck it?

Just as soon as the same book says that the Earth existed before the stars.
Or maybe that the flat earth had a solid dome containing the sun, moon and stars covering it and holding back a sh1t load of non existent water.
That would be a good time to chuck it.

Thank you. As the Bible doesn't say any of those things, the truth of it has not yet expired. I think I'll keep it.

You might want to check your own exp date bully. You smell a little rank.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/20/2014 12:19:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 2:03:12 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 8:31:13 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Prove that without the bible.

The point of that scripture was to show that according to the Bible, Jesus is a man. I think it is not possible to prove without Bible what Bible says.

I'm not asking you to prove divinity without the bible. That would be impossible (or very difficult). But are you telling me, that during a period of some of the best general record keeping and literacy, that no one recorded the existance of Jesus even in a flippant 'oh I met a cult leader named Jesus' way? No court records? Nothing!?

Thirdly, we have pretty good reason to believe that all species evolved from one.

Sorry, you didn"t show any good reason, only easy yarn and farfetched assumptions that are really not good reason to believe in evolution miracle.

Well, these are pretty good evidences. Basically, evolution is what is known as a model. It was created as a viable explanation of what was observed in the natural world (like Darwin's finches). Then, later we found out about DNA and fossils, which made it no longer a viable model, but a scientific theory corroborated by a lot of evidence.

1. DNA evidence

Could also be evidence for that we are created by same being.

Not really. An intelligent being would have created a system of creation that, while might be similar, would be an exercise in minimalism, and not have a large amount of filler DNA that doesn't seem to code for anything. Why also would a deity create DNA, when DNA copying (how we make more cells) produces errors? Wouldn't that deity find a better system?

We have fossils of species that share charactaristics of species that currently exist, with some variations, as well as species that are incredibly old, telling us by radiometric dating not only that the fossil is old, but the earth itself. And if humans by your admittance can evolve slightly different traits over a period two thousand years, how much can species change over millions?

Fossils only show that we have had many kinds of species and it seems that the number of species is constantly decreasing.

Ideas that all species have been evolved from single species is in my opinion absurd, unless someone can breed for example mouse to fish, which should easily to be possible, if evolution theory is correct.

No. Definately not. Evolution is small changes that over time compound into large changes. If you take the ability for the average tail length of a species to shrink by 5% over ten years due to a possible detriment or lack of benefit to long tails, than over thousands of years, the species might lose its tail. Then if you give the species millions of years, other similar small changes will compound to large changes, making the species unrecognizable. By that model, an early fish ancestor could have diverged at one point, one branch becomming a fish and one branch becomming a mouse. You misunderstand evolution. The modern species we see don't change into species that already exist. Rather, what happens is the species changes slowly into something new, or parts of the species population are separated, and both branches change until they are unable to interbreed and become new species.

I think you misunderstood when I said 'large species'. While my example of a Lion is certainly a large species, mice and fish don't breed quick enough to see significant changes within a couple decades. If you want to see a change like that, you have to look small.

Basically, they are structures in our body (like the cocyx) which once served a purpose (the cocyx was a tailbone, which fits with the fact that we share a close common ancestor with Apes),

I don"t think it is a remnant of tailbone, because it is important for several muscles.

"it is an important attachment for various muscles"

http://en.wikipedia.org...

You didn't read through the wikipedia article, or my argument.

"In humans and other tailless primates (e.g., great apes) since Nacholapithecus (a Miocene hominoid),[5][6] the coccyx is the remnant of a vestigial tail, but still not entirely useless"

It is still a vestigial part of a human, but it just assumed a new purpose. Vestigial organs aren't always completely useless, they just had a different, or more important purpose that was lost. What it does show, is that we at one point had a tail.

Certain fossils have been found in places where animals could not have been near each other. Large land animals being found in large numbers on South America and Africa, places that have been geographically separated even to most birds for many years. This once again, points to a longer timeline of the earth, another support of evolution.

I think that is wrong conclusion. The great flood theory can explain most fossil findings as well.

No it cannot. Let's say a flood were to occur. Aside from the tiem it takes for certain types of fossils to form, what we would see in a flood, is a large number of animals scattered amongst one layer of soil that is mixed in a similar manner. Instead, what we observe is animals that are almost without exception found in distinct layers (and not sorted by weight or size) of the earth, which are too characterized by different types of rock and soil charactaristics.

As to your remaining points, I was unsure what your specific Christian denomination was. Many Christians do believe that salvation only comes from belief (which is stupid). I credit you for not being incredibly ignorant on that position.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved