Total Posts:10|Showing Posts:1-10
Jump to topic:

Human responsibility (Christians ONLY)

james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/18/2014 5:23:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hey, believers.

I am not a Calvinist and believe Calvinism to be false. If it is true, then we have a whole lot of other issues to deal with. But if it is not, then it seems to me that the determinism of God's predetermined election is replaced by the effect of the person's circumstances. If a baby is aborted, then (according to most) that baby goes to heaven. That baby does not CHOOSE to go to heaven or accept Christ, yet he/she goes there regardless, due to the actions of others. Similarly, the militant suppression of other faiths practiced by some Islamic nations certainly curtails the seeking of many who would otherwise discover Christ.

My question is: How is this fair? I know "fair" isn't a good word to use in regard to God, but, honestly, if God doesn't choose to damn some and save others, salvation must instead be influenced to a large degree by other people and circumstances. In which case, we have two alternatives:

1) God "set up" the circumstances to arrive at the outcome. This is pragmatically equivalent to Calvinism and would require God to send some people to hell deliberately.

2) God doesn't practice selective damnation, but chance does instead. The person's will and character are involved, but, ultimately, the chance nature of that person's situation and the influence of OTHER's characters are what (in large part at least) sends that person to heaven or hell.

Again, CHRISTIANS ONLY. No mocking atheists, none of Born of God's lunacies, and, if at all possible, try to avoid recourse to the "God isn't bound by our conceptions of fairness and justice" cop-out.

I will be surprised if anyone has a real answer. I haven't found a perfectly satisfactory one yet. Some just skip straight to the "we need to evangelise" message, which is a reasonably acceptable answer to me.
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
EtrnlVw
Posts: 2,307
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/18/2014 7:04:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Calvinism is a joke, God does not control humans or everything they do, I can show you through scripture. The problem with certain religious doctrines is they bind you to a belief, they don't allow you to hold the full truth.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/18/2014 8:02:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 5:23:03 PM, james14 wrote:
Hey, believers.

I am not a Calvinist and believe Calvinism to be false. If it is true, then we have a whole lot of other issues to deal with. But if it is not, then it seems to me that the determinism of God's predetermined election is replaced by the effect of the person's circumstances. If a baby is aborted, then (according to most) that baby goes to heaven. That baby does not CHOOSE to go to heaven or accept Christ, yet he/she goes there regardless, due to the actions of others. Similarly, the militant suppression of other faiths practiced by some Islamic nations certainly curtails the seeking of many who would otherwise discover Christ.

My question is: How is this fair? I know "fair" isn't a good word to use in regard to God, but, honestly, if God doesn't choose to damn some and save others, salvation must instead be influenced to a large degree by other people and circumstances. In which case, we have two alternatives:

1) God "set up" the circumstances to arrive at the outcome. This is pragmatically equivalent to Calvinism and would require God to send some people to hell deliberately.

2) God doesn't practice selective damnation, but chance does instead. The person's will and character are involved, but, ultimately, the chance nature of that person's situation and the influence of OTHER's characters are what (in large part at least) sends that person to heaven or hell.

Again, CHRISTIANS ONLY. No mocking atheists, none of Born of God's lunacies, and, if at all possible, try to avoid recourse to the "God isn't bound by our conceptions of fairness and justice" cop-out.

I will be surprised if anyone has a real answer. I haven't found a perfectly satisfactory one yet. Some just skip straight to the "we need to evangelise" message, which is a reasonably acceptable answer to me.

I'm not sure why you think atheists would mock you for asking this question. It is a very deep and philisophical question, and only those uncultured or apathetic to deeper implications of the existance of a god would be so unmannered as to mock it.

Anyway, I think this brings up another question about the nature of heaven and hell. Is it just to have that system at all? Let's go over some possibilities that I have though of.

1. Let's say god exists and created heaven and hell for the purpose of judging us based on good works. This raises some good questions.

A. As you said, a large amount of our actions aren't really determined by us, but by the actions surrounding us. This is why poor people have a higher violent crime rate. So how does god reconcile origins of evil? Not that it excuses a person from justice if they had a bad childhood, but certainly it makes them less culpable

B. What about small children who die before they are able to make decisions or affect the world with purpose in relation to good and evil? If they automatically get into heaven for dying so young, than isn't someone who kills a large amount of small children a hero, for proventing them from possibly going to hell? If this is just a test, than it doesn't matter anyway. Death isn't forever.

C. Doesn't this raise a question about the people who aren't good, but aren't evil either? Do they get into heaven for not being evil, or go to hell for not being good? And how can we justify eternal reward for doing nothing, or eternal punishment for just not being that great?

2. Let's say god exists and uses the world as a test to get in to heaven and hell based partially on good works and partially on belief.

A. How can belief be equivilant to being a good person? Why does a person who never got exposed to the 'correct religion' have to work so much harder than one who didn't?

B. What positive trait does belief without evidence express? Stupidity? Ignorance? Lack of inquisitiveness? Lack of education? Ability to get brainwashed correctly? (I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, just less scientifically inquisitive) And not only that, they have to get lucky with their brainwashing too. They have to get brainwashed into the right religion, or be properly exposed to the right religion (not just heard of it, but learned of it) and convert to it at the potential risk of alienating their family. It is just luck.

C. Why then does god allow people to die before old age? What if they were going to convert. (I urge you not to say 'because god knows if they will convert later', because that sets up a contradiction between free will and future telling. You cannot accurately predict the future, especially in relation to minute decisions of human whim if humans are not 100% predictable, and if we are 100% predictable, than we don't have free will)

You already asked the last question of god just judging on belief.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/19/2014 11:00:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 8:02:12 PM, Lordgrae wrote:


Anyway, I think this brings up another question about the nature of heaven and hell. Is it just to have that system at all? Let's go over some possibilities that I have though of.


1. Let's say god exists and created heaven and hell for the purpose of judging us based on good works. This raises some good questions.


You are obviously not a Christian. In fact, sorry to be nosy, but I checked out your profile religion, and it seems you are a "pastafarian," which would group you in with the mocking atheists. I would have appreciated it if you could have made it clear you were not a Christian. Hell is certainly just, as mankind is evil without question. That is certain. Even the best-"situated" of us sins regularly. God, to be just, must punish sin.

A. As you said, a large amount of our actions aren't really determined by us, but by the actions surrounding us. This is why poor people have a higher violent crime rate. So how does god reconcile origins of evil? Not that it excuses a person from justice if they had a bad childhood, but certainly it makes them less culpable

B. What about small children who die before they are able to make decisions or affect the world with purpose in relation to good and evil? If they automatically get into heaven for dying so young, than isn't someone who kills a large amount of small children a hero, for proventing them from possibly going to hell? If this is just a test, than it doesn't matter anyway. Death isn't forever.

Death isn't forever? Then what is? And I didn't say that a large amount of our actions aren't determined by us. In the end, we make the decisions. I only said they were heavily influenced by others. I would never go so far as to deny free will in certain instances.

C. Doesn't this raise a question about the people who aren't good, but aren't evil either? Do they get into heaven for not being evil, or go to hell for not being good? And how can we justify eternal reward for doing nothing, or eternal punishment for just not being that great?


Everyone is "evil." You see, sin isn't graded on a curve. As Jesus said, the person who keeps every commandment but one is still going to hell. Only through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can any be saved, regardless of these other questions. You are confusing every other religion's emphasis on good works with Christianity's emphasis on Jesus' propitiating sacrifice.

2. Let's say god exists and uses the world as a test to get in to heaven and hell based partially on good works and partially on belief.

A. How can belief be equivilant to being a good person? Why does a person who never got exposed to the 'correct religion' have to work so much harder than one who didn't?

The "good person" test is irrelevant. Hell is filled with those you would call good people. Only those who realize they can never get to heaven on their own and place their trust in Christ's atoning work on the cross are saved, or go to heaven.

B. What positive trait does belief without evidence express? Stupidity? Ignorance? Lack of inquisitiveness? Lack of education? Ability to get brainwashed correctly? (I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, just less scientifically inquisitive) And not only that, they have to get lucky with their brainwashing too. They have to get brainwashed into the right religion, or be properly exposed to the right religion (not just heard of it, but learned of it) and convert to it at the potential risk of alienating their family. It is just luck.

Many people would say faith.

I have read many books by intelligent people, even scientists, who found this particular "religion" perfectly compatible with the "evidence." There is certainly enough evidence to justify belief. Atheism is the most popular form of "brainwashing" these days with its universal acceptance in public schools and intolerance of any other option.

C. Why then does god allow people to die before old age? What if they were going to convert. (I urge you not to say 'because god knows if they will convert later', because that sets up a contradiction between free will and future telling. You cannot accurately predict the future, especially in relation to minute decisions of human whim if humans are not 100% predictable, and if we are 100% predictable, than we don't have free will)

You already asked the last question of god just judging on belief.


Okay, you aren't a Christian and you are an atheist, and now you're proving it.

I said this before: I am not a Calvinist. God does not make us do what we do. However, that does not prevent God from seeing the future, as He is all-knowing and what is the future to us is not so to Him. It is no hard thing for God. Calvinism says that God does decide when people die. I don't, as I am not a Calvinist.
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2014 3:20:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/19/2014 11:00:55 AM, james14 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 8:02:12 PM, Lordgrae wrote:


Anyway, I think this brings up another question about the nature of heaven and hell. Is it just to have that system at all? Let's go over some possibilities that I have though of.



1. Let's say god exists and created heaven and hell for the purpose of judging us based on good works. This raises some good questions.


Hell is certainly just, as mankind is evil without question. That is certain. Even the best-"situated" of us sins regularly. God, to be just, must punish sin.

What is sin? While I agree murder is bad, (unless under self-defense, no other option, by murdering that person you save more lives, that person was a murderer or a large scale theif etc...) and stealing is bad (unless one has to in order to survive and the person they steal from is themselves immoral), a lot of the things in the bible that are 'sins' just seem to make no sense when I am told god is 'just, intelligent and loving'.

1. Taking god's name in vain and blaspheming

Seriously? That makes god more immature than me. I don't get upset when people insult me. I used to get upset, and was pretty violent about people who made fun of me. However, unlike your tyrannical deity, I grew up.

2. Not honoring you mother and father.

What if they are complete @ssholes who left you to fend for yourself?

3. The lack of any grey area in the rules

God doesn't seem to allow for any braking of the rules, even though there are different situations which would call for it. While most people are intelligent enough to rationalize the rules like 'don't kill' to mean, 'only a last resort or to save lives', some people aren't that smart.

And all of the demands for worship. You think god would care more about our behavior to each other, just asking us to give money to the poor instead of building churches for him. Or volunteering instead of worshipping.

A. As you said, a large amount of our actions aren't really determined by us, but by the actions surrounding us. This is why poor people have a higher violent crime rate. So how does god reconcile origins of evil? Not that it excuses a person from justice if they had a bad childhood, but certainly it makes them less culpable

B. What about small children who die before they are able to make decisions or affect the world with purpose in relation to good and evil? If they automatically get into heaven for dying so young, than isn't someone who kills a large amount of small children a hero, for proventing them from possibly going to hell? If this is just a test, than it doesn't matter anyway. Death isn't forever.

Death isn't forever? Then what is? And I didn't say that a large amount of our actions aren't determined by us. In the end, we make the decisions. I only said they were heavily influenced by others. I would never go so far as to deny free will in certain instances.

I apologize for the malformed statement. I meant this world isn't forever.

And if we have heavy influence, than can we truly be 100% culpable for any action?

C. Doesn't this raise a question about the people who aren't good, but aren't evil either? Do they get into heaven for not being evil, or go to hell for not being good? And how can we justify eternal reward for doing nothing, or eternal punishment for just not being that great?


Everyone is "evil." You see, sin isn't graded on a curve. As Jesus said, the person who keeps every commandment but one is still going to hell. Only through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can any be saved, regardless of these other questions. You are confusing every other religion's emphasis on good works with Christianity's emphasis on Jesus' propitiating sacrifice.

So not following every single rule in a book which isn't known everywhere and can't be proven is so bad that it deserves an eternity of torture without end?

2. Let's say god exists and uses the world as a test to get in to heaven and hell based partially on good works and partially on belief.

A. How can belief be equivilant to being a good person? Why does a person who never got exposed to the 'correct religion' have to work so much harder than one who didn't?

The "good person" test is irrelevant. Hell is filled with those you would call good people. Only those who realize they can never get to heaven on their own and place their trust in Christ's atoning work on the cross are saved, or go to heaven.

B. What positive trait does belief without evidence express? Stupidity? Ignorance? Lack of inquisitiveness? Lack of education? Ability to get brainwashed correctly? (I'm not saying all religious people are stupid, just less scientifically inquisitive) And not only that, they have to get lucky with their brainwashing too. They have to get brainwashed into the right religion, or be properly exposed to the right religion (not just heard of it, but learned of it) and convert to it at the potential risk of alienating their family. It is just luck.

Many people would say faith.

I have read many books by intelligent people, even scientists, who found this particular "religion" perfectly compatible with the "evidence." There is certainly enough evidence to justify belief. Atheism is the most popular form of "brainwashing" these days with its universal acceptance in public schools and intolerance of any other option.

Most scientists in the US, where religion reaches all but 19% of the world, are not religious. So your argument from authority is not only based on the fallacy of argument from authority, but the fact that most factual authorities do not find the two compatable.

And how is faith positive? Why is that good? Why is believing things without evidence good? And not only faith, but the right faith. Why is only one type of faith good, when all religious people display the same trait?

C. Why then does god allow people to die before old age? What if they were going to convert. (I urge you not to say 'because god knows if they will convert later', because that sets up a contradiction between free will and future telling. You cannot accurately predict the future, especially in relation to minute decisions of human whim if humans are not 100% predictable, and if we are 100% predictable, than we don't have free will)

You already asked the last question of god just judging on belief.


Okay, you aren't a Christian and you are an atheist, and now you're proving it.

I said this before: I am not a Calvinist. God does not make us do what we do. However, that does not prevent God from seeing the future, as He is all-knowing and what is the future to us is not so to Him. It is no hard thing for God. Calvinism says that God does decide when people die. I don't, as I am not a Calvinist.

People having free will and knowing the future are mutually exclusive to some degree. There are some things which can be known, but these are general things like, the sun will go out some day. Factors based on minute human decisions would make it impossible to know the future if people truly have free will.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
tabularasa
Posts: 200
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/20/2014 3:54:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 5:23:03 PM, james14 wrote:
Hey, believers.

I am not a Calvinist and believe Calvinism to be false. If it is true, then we have a whole lot of other issues to deal with. But if it is not, then it seems to me that the determinism of God's predetermined election is replaced by the effect of the person's circumstances. If a baby is aborted, then (according to most) that baby goes to heaven. That baby does not CHOOSE to go to heaven or accept Christ, yet he/she goes there regardless, due to the actions of others. Similarly, the militant suppression of other faiths practiced by some Islamic nations certainly curtails the seeking of many who would otherwise discover Christ.

My question is: How is this fair? I know "fair" isn't a good word to use in regard to God, but, honestly, if God doesn't choose to damn some and save others, salvation must instead be influenced to a large degree by other people and circumstances. In which case, we have two alternatives:

1) God "set up" the circumstances to arrive at the outcome. This is pragmatically equivalent to Calvinism and would require God to send some people to hell deliberately.

2) God doesn't practice selective damnation, but chance does instead. The person's will and character are involved, but, ultimately, the chance nature of that person's situation and the influence of OTHER's characters are what (in large part at least) sends that person to heaven or hell.

Again, CHRISTIANS ONLY. No mocking atheists, none of Born of God's lunacies, and, if at all possible, try to avoid recourse to the "God isn't bound by our conceptions of fairness and justice" cop-out.

I will be surprised if anyone has a real answer. I haven't found a perfectly satisfactory one yet. Some just skip straight to the "we need to evangelise" message, which is a reasonably acceptable answer to me.

I agree. Calvinism does not seem fair. Only the choice of an individual should determine salvation. God desires salvation for all.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
james14
Posts: 68
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/21/2014 5:22:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/20/2014 3:20:57 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

Most scientists in the US, where religion reaches all but 19% of the world, are not religious. So your argument from authority is not only based on the fallacy of argument from authority, but the fact that most factual authorities do not find the two compatable.



I wish you'd just take your atheist arguments elsewhere. I was looking for Christian responses.
Maybe I'm a genius; maybe not.

||||?||||
||>|||||<|
|<||>||?|||
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/21/2014 5:25:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 5:22:46 PM, james14 wrote:
At 12/20/2014 3:20:57 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

Most scientists in the US, where religion reaches all but 19% of the world, are not religious. So your argument from authority is not only based on the fallacy of argument from authority, but the fact that most factual authorities do not find the two compatable.



I wish you'd just take your atheist arguments elsewhere. I was looking for Christian responses.

To be honest, I came here agreeing with you. I felt that you had brought up some good questions, and I was only looking to expand, because I felt that the questions you asked naturally segwayed into questions not just about Calvinistic beliefs, but almost any situation that includes an Omnipotent and Omniscient deity and the current state of the human world.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/21/2014 6:02:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 5:22:46 PM, james14 wrote:
At 12/20/2014 3:20:57 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

Most scientists in the US, where religion reaches all but 19% of the world, are not religious. So your argument from authority is not only based on the fallacy of argument from authority, but the fact that most factual authorities do not find the two compatable.



I wish you'd just take your atheist arguments elsewhere. I was looking for Christian responses.

Yes, damn it all, Lordgrae, reality is not welcome in this thread. Take your facts elsewhere.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Gentorev
Posts: 2,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/22/2014 12:02:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 6:02:16 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:22:46 PM, james14 wrote:
At 12/20/2014 3:20:57 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

Most scientists in the US, where religion reaches all but 19% of the world, are not religious. So your argument from authority is not only based on the fallacy of argument from authority, but the fact that most factual authorities do not find the two compatable.



I wish you'd just take your atheist arguments elsewhere. I was looking for Christian responses.

Yes, damn it all, Lordgrae, reality is not welcome in this thread. Take your facts elsewhere.

In most religious forums, where the creator of a new topic, calls for Christians only, if an atheist should dare to butt into that thread, they can be reported to the moderators who will give them a warning, and if they persist in entering a forbidden thread they will be banned. I don't know about this forum, but you could try.

it really needs a termite exterminator around here, the atheist termites, attempt to white ant any and every Christian post.