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Atheists: do we have free will?

Benshapiro
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12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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12/21/2014 2:27:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Well this brain chemistry may not allow fro free will, which would give the theist an excuse for the problem of evil, but at least it can bring about morals (which is how we discern the god of the bible is so bad) and logic (which is how we know what is reasonable to believe).

There is no free will, because when i take loads of acid, there is a change in my brain chemistry. The same kind of change that occurs when people make choices. So choices are nothing more than changes in brain chemistry. Some people make bad choices when they are loaded up with acid. Or when they are religious. but the Atheist brain makes good decisions because our brain activity changes are just the way things are supposed to happen according to the laws of nature.
Rant
Posts: 1,674
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12/21/2014 2:38:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
SOULS hovering on the brink of hell: That"s what those two criminals were " one on the left and the other on the right side of Jesus Christ. Imagine this for a moment: Jesus is dying, two criminals beside him are dying too and what we witness here is the only deathbed (well, sort of) conversation in the Bible. One of the criminals looked at Jesus and hurled insults at him. "Aren"t you Christ? Save yourself and us!" But the other criminal rebuked the first one. He said: "We are punished justly for we are getting what we deserve, but this man has done nothing wrong." One in pain and agony hurled insults and the other in pain and agony voiced what his heart had detected and said: "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Actually, Jesus" love and forgiveness were available for the other thief also because he died for the sins of the WHOLE world. The difference was that he chose not to receive it" he was a skeptic.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/21/2014 11:16:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Most definitely slaves to brain chemistry.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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12/21/2014 11:29:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 11:16:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Most definitely slaves to brain chemistry.

Yep. Now that we've established that we are just automatons and everything we do is out of our control and therefore not under moral preview, what do you say about us going on the town raping and murdering people?
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/21/2014 11:43:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 11:29:50 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 11:16:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Most definitely slaves to brain chemistry.

Yep. Now that we've established that we are just automatons and everything we do is out of our control and therefore not under moral preview, what do you say about us going on the town raping and murdering people?

I can't because my brain has a negative chemical response to raping and murdering. It's so... barbaric. How about we go to a martini bar where we can get blitzed and alter our chemical states instead. Then we can lie on our backs in the park in a state of chemically induced euphoria, stare up at the night sky and talk about Stephen Hawking... just to irritate the theists of course and cause a negative chemical reaction in their brains. What do you say?
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
Bennett91
Posts: 4,227
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12/21/2014 11:53:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 11:43:51 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/21/2014 11:29:50 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 11:16:27 PM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Most definitely slaves to brain chemistry.

Yep. Now that we've established that we are just automatons and everything we do is out of our control and therefore not under moral preview, what do you say about us going on the town raping and murdering people?

I can't because my brain has a negative chemical response to raping and murdering. It's so... barbaric. How about we go to a martini bar where we can get blitzed and alter our chemical states instead. Then we can lie on our backs in the park in a state of chemically induced euphoria, stare up at the night sky and talk about Stephen Hawking... just to irritate the theists of course and cause a negative chemical reaction in their brains. What do you say?

My brain chemistry reacts positively to this.
dee-em
Posts: 6,472
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12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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12/22/2014 10:17:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Atheists: do we have free will?

What's with the we, Ke-mo sah-bee?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 10:21:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Sorry, but the OP is so poorly worded, perhaps I should have assumed English is not the authors first language. My bad.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 10:24:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material?

That is false, all processes in the human body are "material" processes. In other words, they are based in reality, have effects that can be observed and measured.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
bulproof
Posts: 25,238
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12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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12/22/2014 10:27:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Under a theory of time that I am trying to develop with a friend (who has majored in philosophy) called the IB_Theory of Time, free will is possible with the existence of the future.

Now, the thing is, our brain can monitor itself. This allows us to choose to do what we are thinking of doing. We cannot, however, choose what we are thinking of doing.

For an analogy, let's say there are two people who are talking with each other, but cannot necessarily choose what they say. Person A says to punch this guy, but Person B can respond and reason this out. Now, by having this conversation, you can somewhat lead yourself to certain topics, but do not have ultimate control over it. This also answers the problem of consciousness (which is awareness of surroundings and self) by showing that you can be self aware while your senses give you awareness of your surroundings.

So, in a way (under the IB-Theory of Time I am developing), we have free will, but it would be different from the concept that most people have of free will. Of course, most of this is still philosophical.

You also are going on straight materialsim. I, personally, follow ontological materialism. Interactions with matter can account for things as well, even if those interactions cause something that is not exactly material.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/22/2014 10:30:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Intelligence and consciousness are emergent properties of our biology that allow us to perceive both ourselves and the world around us through the senses of our bodies. We have thus been able to develop devices to allow us to detect and measure things beyond those senses. Every being makes choices, and that fact alone leads to the conclusion that we do indeed have free will. Can that will be affected by outside forces such as drugs and torture or brainwashing? Sure, but that doesn't negate the fact that we are capable of making decisions when not acted on by exterior forces.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 11:53:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Sorry, but the OP is so poorly worded, perhaps I should have assumed English is not the authors first language. My bad.

It's not poorly worded you just need an adequate vocabulary in order to understand it. Let me ask you: do humans have free will if all processes are material?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 12:00:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:53:52 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Sorry, but the OP is so poorly worded, perhaps I should have assumed English is not the authors first language. My bad.

It's not poorly worded you just need an adequate vocabulary in order to understand it.

LOL.

Let me ask you: do humans have free will if all processes are material?

Of course, they can. All human processes are material.

And, for the sake of clarity and syntax, using the word "material" is redundant. Everything that is of nature or reality is simply that, nature. So instead, we refer to human processes as "Natural". You may want to add that word to your "adequate vocabulary"
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 12:01:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.

Ok so the brain is only material. Material things aren't capable of choice or intent. It follows logically that if the brain is only material, the brain isn't capable of choice or intent either.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 12:19:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:01:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.

Ok so the brain is only material. Material things aren't capable of choice or intent. It follows logically that if the brain is only material, the brain isn't capable of choice or intent either.

Sorry, but that logic has already been shown to be fallacious in post # 10.

"Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic."
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/22/2014 12:19:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:01:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.

Ok so the brain is only material. Material things aren't capable of choice or intent. It follows logically that if the brain is only material, the brain isn't capable of choice or intent either.

Gee, you'd make a good parrot. He just said that decision making, hence free will, is a material process since it is accomplished by the electrochemical processes in our brains. The intelligence and will that we have is an emergent property of those processes and that structure so it is also 'material'.
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 12:19:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:00:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:53:52 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Sorry, but the OP is so poorly worded, perhaps I should have assumed English is not the authors first language. My bad.

It's not poorly worded you just need an adequate vocabulary in order to understand it.

LOL.

Let me ask you: do humans have free will if all processes are material?

Of course, they can. All human processes are material.

And, for the sake of clarity and syntax, using the word "material" is redundant. Everything that is of nature or reality is simply that, nature. So instead, we refer to human processes as "Natural". You may want to add that word to your "adequate vocabulary"

If free will is "material" free will doesnt exist.

"Yet from a purely scientific perspective, how is it possible that anything can occur without having been caused by something else? If we really can choose, then these choices must be uncaused - something that cannot be explained within the model of science that many of us rely on."
http://m.psychologytoday.com...

"In this elegant and provocative book, Sam Harris demonstrates"with great intellectual ferocity and panache"that free will is an inherently flawed and incoherent concept, even in subjective terms. If he is right, the book will radically change the way we view ourselves as human beings."
http://m.samharris.org...
Benshapiro
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12/22/2014 12:22:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:19:08 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:01:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.

Ok so the brain is only material. Material things aren't capable of choice or intent. It follows logically that if the brain is only material, the brain isn't capable of choice or intent either.

Gee, you'd make a good parrot. He just said that decision making, hence free will, is a material process since it is accomplished by the electrochemical processes in our brains. The intelligence and will that we have is an emergent property of those processes and that structure so it is also 'material'.

are chemical interactions deterministic?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 12:25:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:19:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:00:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:53:52 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Sorry, but the OP is so poorly worded, perhaps I should have assumed English is not the authors first language. My bad.

It's not poorly worded you just need an adequate vocabulary in order to understand it.

LOL.

Let me ask you: do humans have free will if all processes are material?

Of course, they can. All human processes are material.

And, for the sake of clarity and syntax, using the word "material" is redundant. Everything that is of nature or reality is simply that, nature. So instead, we refer to human processes as "Natural". You may want to add that word to your "adequate vocabulary"

If free will is "material" free will doesnt exist.

"Yet from a purely scientific perspective, how is it possible that anything can occur without having been caused by something else? If we really can choose, then these choices must be uncaused - something that cannot be explained within the model of science that many of us rely on."
http://m.psychologytoday.com...

Well, so far you are completely ignoring everything that is being explained to you and you keep making the same mistakes over and over with your flawed logic.

"In this elegant and provocative book, Sam Harris demonstrates"with great intellectual ferocity and panache"that free will is an inherently flawed and incoherent concept, even in subjective terms. If he is right, the book will radically change the way we view ourselves as human beings."
http://m.samharris.org...

Why the firetruck would you put that in here now? Why would you even ask about free will if you put that up? Wtf is wrong with you?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 12:26:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:19:07 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:01:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.

Ok so the brain is only material. Material things aren't capable of choice or intent. It follows logically that if the brain is only material, the brain isn't capable of choice or intent either.

Sorry, but that logic has already been shown to be fallacious in post # 10.

"Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic."

None of the parts are capable of flight without intelligent intervention. Just because an airplane is assembled doesn't mean that it can fly on its own. Whether it's the initial takeoff or autopilot once in the air, it required intelligent intervention to construct it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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12/22/2014 12:26:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:22:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:19:08 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:01:30 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:56:18 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:50:35 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:25:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 9:59:19 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:42:22 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
Most atheists are materialists so that's why I adressed the question towards them.

If mind came from matter, our mind only possesses qualities of matter. Matter isn't capable of intentionality. Whatever thoughts we have are determined by a determinant process of brain chemistry.

So, do we have free will by other means or are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Composition fallacy. An airplane is made of thousands of parts. None of the parts are capable of flight. Therefore an airplane can't fly. That is your logic.

Or better:

"If bodies came from cells, our body only possesses qualities of cells. Cells aren't capable of having feelings. Whatever emotional response we have is determined by a mechanical process of cell chemistry.

So, do we have feelings by other means or are we enslaved by our own cell chemistry?"

So everything is material yet the material processes in the human body are not material? How do you account for human free will as a materialist?

Provide something that is not material.

Free will?

Sorry, but 'free will' is a phrase used to describe on of many decision making processes of the brain. That would be a "material" process.

Ok so the brain is only material. Material things aren't capable of choice or intent. It follows logically that if the brain is only material, the brain isn't capable of choice or intent either.

Gee, you'd make a good parrot. He just said that decision making, hence free will, is a material process since it is accomplished by the electrochemical processes in our brains. The intelligence and will that we have is an emergent property of those processes and that structure so it is also 'material'.

are chemical interactions deterministic?

Who cares? Wtf does that have to do with anything? Are you just going to keep repeating the same nonsense over and over?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Benshapiro
Posts: 3,966
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12/22/2014 12:27:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:25:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:19:28 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:00:51 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:53:52 AM, Benshapiro wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:21:39 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 7:59:34 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 12/21/2014 5:47:59 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/21/2014 12:10:46 PM, Benshapiro wrote:
are we enslaved by our own brain chemistry?

Pretty funny thread. I can't imagine it is serious.

But it is a good question. I'd say we are slaves to brain chemistry. What else is there that has such direct control over us?

Sorry, but the OP is so poorly worded, perhaps I should have assumed English is not the authors first language. My bad.

It's not poorly worded you just need an adequate vocabulary in order to understand it.

LOL.

Let me ask you: do humans have free will if all processes are material?

Of course, they can. All human processes are material.

And, for the sake of clarity and syntax, using the word "material" is redundant. Everything that is of nature or reality is simply that, nature. So instead, we refer to human processes as "Natural". You may want to add that word to your "adequate vocabulary"

If free will is "material" free will doesnt exist.

"Yet from a purely scientific perspective, how is it possible that anything can occur without having been caused by something else? If we really can choose, then these choices must be uncaused - something that cannot be explained within the model of science that many of us rely on."
http://m.psychologytoday.com...

Well, so far you are completely ignoring everything that is being explained to you and you keep making the same mistakes over and over with your flawed logic.

"In this elegant and provocative book, Sam Harris demonstrates"with great intellectual ferocity and panache"that free will is an inherently flawed and incoherent concept, even in subjective terms. If he is right, the book will radically change the way we view ourselves as human beings."
http://m.samharris.org...

Why the firetruck would you put that in here now? Why would you even ask about free will if you put that up? Wtf is wrong with you?

To show you that material processes can't account for free will lol