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The Morals of Atheist

suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P
dee-em
Posts: 6,443
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12/22/2014 5:13:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

Ask yourself these questions.

Does theism lead to better behaved individuals in terms of crime? What is the empirical evidence such as representation in prison systems?

Would you expect the priests of a religion to have the highest possible moral behaviour? Look at the scandals with pedophilia in the Catholic Church and other churches and religious organizations.

Would you expect a largely Christian country such as the USA to have lower crime statistics per thousand head of population than other comparable countries with a much smaller Christian uptake? What does the evidence say?
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/22/2014 5:40:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

The statistics on this run rather dramatically against your assertions. Firstly, based on U.S. Prison surveys, the percentage of Christians in Prison is about 75% (the same as in free society), while the percentage of atheists in U.S. prisons is 0.2%. Depending on survey criteria, the number of atheists in free society is 7 - 16%. That means that Christians are at least 35-times more likely to engage in serious criminal activity than are atheists. Greg Paul performed a statistical analysis of atheists and theists using lesser offenses against social order (i.e. drug use, alcohol abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc.), and found the same basic conclusion - theists are more likely to engage in socially disruptive behaviors than atheists.

So atheists actually demonstrate more moral behavior than theists, and we don't seem to need a book which includes rape, slavery and infanticide as moral acts, as a guide for morality.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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12/22/2014 10:01:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 5:40:26 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

The statistics on this run rather dramatically against your assertions. Firstly, based on U.S. Prison surveys, the percentage of Christians in Prison is about 75% (the same as in free society), while the percentage of atheists in U.S. prisons is 0.2%. Depending on survey criteria, the number of atheists in free society is 7 - 16%. That means that Christians are at least 35-times more likely to engage in serious criminal activity than are atheists. Greg Paul performed a statistical analysis of atheists and theists using lesser offenses against social order (i.e. drug use, alcohol abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc.), and found the same basic conclusion - theists are more likely to engage in socially disruptive behaviors than atheists.

So atheists actually demonstrate more moral behavior than theists, and we don't seem to need a book which includes rape, slavery and infanticide as moral acts, as a guide for morality.

Many factors can affect people criminal behaviour, and from my point of view - most of them have more to do with socio-economical rather than moral reason.

do you think a criminal rape people because that is the way of the virtuous person? No, they probably rape a girl because they get horny or because they have a poor and abusive family background that they want to release those energies back to the society. And let's face it your society (I assumed that you are an american) is overwhelmingly religious, so of course the number of religious criminal should outmatch the Atheist one.

Rather than told me why religion myth can be faulty (and they probably are), how about telling me the reason why should we not believe in religion? Especially when, in most, cases your moral concept is a religion copy cat which you should have it in your pre-disown of your religion anyway?
suttichart.denpruektham
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12/22/2014 10:07:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 5:13:38 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

Ask yourself these questions.

Does theism lead to better behaved individuals in terms of crime? What is the empirical evidence such as representation in prison systems?

Would you expect the priests of a religion to have the highest possible moral behaviour? Look at the scandals with pedophilia in the Catholic Church and other churches and religious organizations.

Would you expect a largely Christian country such as the USA to have lower crime statistics per thousand head of population than other comparable countries with a much smaller Christian uptake? What does the evidence say?

It could have been worse if they don't have any thing to follow at all. But any way, criminal rate is hardly an accurate factor to measure people moral behaviour. Moral is a concept of self-regulation, it should brought a socially acceptable behaviour beyond the call of law, if those people are already committed a crime then obviously their moral system is broken whether that is coming from religion or what's not.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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12/22/2014 10:13:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Morals of Atheist
Are real and those of the deluded are of course as stupid as they are.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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12/22/2014 10:31:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

One of the first things you might want to look at is the fact that the largest religions based on the Abrahamic God do NOT teach morals and ethics, quite the contrary. That is one of the main reasons folks turn to non-belief and instead decide their morals based on reason and logic.

Religions teach intolerance towards those who don't share the religion. They teach hatred and fear towards those who would reject the religion. The list goes on and on.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/22/2014 10:36:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay, so many religious people generally tend to believe that atheists have no moral compass, and that's entirely untrue.

Morality is not defined by the religion. I firmly believe that the underdeveloped yet then-accepted principles of ancient standards of morality influenced many religions. Yet, a large portion of it is primitive. If the Bible was taken word for word nowadays, society would be continuously terrorized by institutionalized bloodshed, slavery, and rape. Not far off from religious history, actually.

Morality is what works, what doesn't cause an uproar or any sort of serious negativity. For instance, I consider cold-blooded murder to be immoral. Why? Because it is illogical and the act of murder would only cause a rift in society. The act would harm others and possibly the murderer psychologically. Murder doesn't work. It doesn't benefit society. It only lessons the quality of life for people impacted by the murder. It only causes negativity. Negativity is detrimental to the human psych.

And therefore, logically speaking, it is wrong.

Also, let's talk about human instinct. And psychopathy. Psychopaths can't sympathize with others, and thus, feel no qualms about committing immoral acts. They're antisocial, at least internally. Most non-psychopaths have to capacity to love, understand, and, if deserved, sympathize with others. Most humans, aside from psychopaths, are social by nature. It makes sense that we are vulnerable to social negativity, guilt, and sympathy. Thus, these things provoke morality. For the emotionally intelligent, at the very least, as well as those who can only understand morality on a logical level (e.g. some sociopaths).

I'm honestly appalled by people who would go around murdering and raping if they believed an "authority" didn't tell them otherwise. What is this logic, the Purge?

Also, the Bible, for instance, clearly condones many of the things that Christians denounce. And by logic, it's an immoral book. Although, I suppose this is one instance where I should be thankful for churches blindly conditioning people because they do contribute to preventing the horrific acts that the bible condones (ahem slavery, etc).

In summary, religious texts are cherry-picked. Therefore, they are not being used as a true basis, but rather, a convenient explanation. I firmly believe that morality influenced religion, and not vice versa.
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

There is, of course, the incentive of society. Stealing something means forfeiting one's comfortable life and their social ties which makes life better. But, you might also get away with the crime in the short term, in which case the crime "paid off". Or, more lenient sentences for a crime in a more civilized society may mean that the punishment for your crime is lesser than your rewards, as is happening.
If you get away with a crime in the short term, it's possible that in the future the Government may revive you from the dead and punish you for your crime. This assumption may deter crime. However, it's also reasonable to assume that the Government in the future will be more compassionate and give you a lighter sentence, so that's not much of an incentive.
Over all, there is no guaranteed incentive to not commit a crime, especially if that crime benefits you more than the (possible) punishment.
And, if you can completely get away with the crime (in the sense that it's not illegal at the time), you benefit completely.
Conscience is an incentive, but it's not always effective, as some people have seared consciences.

Then, there's the initiator of the Omega Point. If he can turn himself into the ultimate consciousness of the Universe (or if he thinks that he has a chance of succeeding), there'd be absolutely nothing to punish him, and to wipe out every life form in the Universe for the sake of his own ascension to godhood would only benefit him.
The leader of the global government would have quite the incentive to try. There is no effective incentive of stopping him if he thinks he can succeed.
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dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/22/2014 10:38:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:31:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

One of the first things you might want to look at is the fact that the largest religions based on the Abrahamic God do NOT teach morals and ethics, quite the contrary. That is one of the main reasons folks turn to non-belief and instead decide their morals based on reason and logic.

Religions teach intolerance towards those who don't share the religion. They teach hatred and fear towards those who would reject the religion. The list goes on and on.

+1
hayhen13
Posts: 14
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12/22/2014 10:41:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many Christians say that they get their morals from the Bible, and that all humans get their morals form God. Here I will prove that it is very unintelligent and illogical to propose this.

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.

If Christians say that humans get morals from God; let"s see what his morals are.
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Okay, so far he"s only a homophobe and thinks gays should be murdered.

"If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst." (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Now God suggests murdering your own family if they believe what they want to believe.

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Okay, so God obviously condones regarding people as property and believes in slavery.

"Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city." (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
Ok, so God now believes raping people should be a reward of conquering a city.
"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings " Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba " died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho." (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves." (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

God believes in raping virgin girls.

If people honestly say that we atheists don"t have morals because we don"t believe in this. Then they should read their own Bible and get their act together.
hayhen13
Posts: 14
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12/22/2014 10:48:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
every person can set morals for themselves. My moral values is: treat others how you want to be treated. I don't need an invisible man in the sky to come down and tell me its wrong to hurt baby's. Like, bruh, I cant believe people actually believe in that.

Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us. He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. (Psalms 137:8-9)

Actually God would believe in baby killing.

Saying Atheists don't have morals is the most stupid argument ever brought up. The person who is Christian believes in God and the Bible. The bible condones killing babies so Christians belive in that. Then they have the swagger to come to atheists and tell them that they don't have morals! Jesus Christ that's stupid!!!!!
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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12/22/2014 11:23:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.

Why, when in the end, assuming that you're perfectly following that, you will both doing the right thing?
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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12/22/2014 11:27:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:23:58 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.

Why, when in the end, assuming that you're perfectly following that, you will both doing the right thing?
You wanna try that again?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
mrsatan
Posts: 417
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12/22/2014 11:30:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

Your post makes little sense to me. No one should abandon their beliefs for "the sake of atheism". Everyone should be willing to honestly question their beliefs. Whether or not to continue holding those beliefs should be dependant on the answers to such questioning.

Morality is not this complicated subject that people make it out to be. If you want to be a good person, then you will be. It's (usually) pretty easy to determine if doing something will hurt someone or not.

Think before you act, and you can be whatever you want to be. Unless you want to be perfect. We all have occasional errors in judgement, but that's just part of life.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
jodybirdy
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12/22/2014 11:31:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

As an atheist I will be happy to answer these questions. I hope that it will be considered or at best understood. Somehow I see no hope that any theist will open his/her mind and approach this with empathy and understanding. I have come to expect a certain negative reception to my views.

First of all, in the US 25% of physicians who were surveyed are agnostic/atheistic in their beliefs. 61% are more likely to cope with major problems in life without relying on God or religious precepts. http://www.answers.com... These are people who dedicate 12+ years of their lives to achieve the status of medical doctor. After 4 years of college they take the MCAT with the hope of being accepted into the medical doctor program at a university. This test is so intense that many students take a year off from classes just to prepare for it. With that being said, it should be quite obvious that becoming an MD takes dedication, intelligence, and a deep desire to help other people. The moral question is a poor argument against atheism.

The atheist belief is that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a god. The only "evidence" that theists have are ancient books describing miracles and communications with a God that has been missing for centuries. Where are the miracles since these ancient books were written?

This is something theists fail to understand: The burden of proof lies with the person who claims that something exists. God is NOT supported by physical evidence. The documented miracles attributed to most of the Gods in the ancient world were simply ignorant misinterpretations of how the natural universe works and science has debunked these "miracles" that are the basis for many of the stories in the Christian Bible and other ancient religious writings. This is the realistic way of looking at religion. Unfortunately, as atheists we are he heretics, the nonconformists and the hated few. That hatred is fear based. Not towards the atheist, but what the atheist mindset represents. Many theists are not emotionally able to accept this reality and cling to false beliefs out of fear.

I do not believe in the existence of a supreme being with no tangible evidence. I also believe that human beings do not need religious instruction or a theistic world view to live a good life and make morally just decisions. I do not believe that my personal moral compass is affected by my disbelief in God. I have been an atheist since I was 12 years old. My moral "world view" is my own. I'm the person that helps someone pay their grocery bill at the register if they don't have enough money. I'm the person who picks up garbage in a park and carries it to a trash receptacle. I'm the person who cares for a stray animal and works with local agencies to give it a "new leash on life". I'm the person who donates time to the local hospice organizations to help families in need. I believe that life is precious and all lives matter. My children are loved and have grown up confident and empathetic even without the influence of a church.

I will say this once again and no theist will hear me... theists are wrong about atheists.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
suttichart.denpruektham
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12/22/2014 11:39:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:27:25 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:23:58 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.

Why, when in the end, assuming that you're perfectly following that, you will both doing the right thing?
You wanna try that again?

It's an honest question, I expect honest answer.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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12/22/2014 11:49:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:23:58 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.

Why, when in the end, assuming that you're perfectly following that, you will both doing the right thing?

if the act does harm to others, then it probably isn't doing the right thing. If it helps others, we might want to think it is the right thing, but only if we ask nothing in return.

Theists will commit an act because their god commands it. They don't know why they should commit the act other then the fact their god commanded it and so they want to please their god.

We see this behavior right here on these forums from those who continuously tell us we're the spawn of Satan and will roast for an eternity. They do this because they believe they're commanded to do so and are oblivious of the wake of destruction they leave in their path. All they care about is pleasing their god and nothing else. To them, this is both moral and ethical behavior.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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12/22/2014 11:59:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:31:54 AM, jodybirdy wrote:
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

As an atheist I will be happy to answer these questions. I hope that it will be considered or at best understood. Somehow I see no hope that any theist will open his/her mind and approach this with empathy and understanding. I have come to expect a certain negative reception to my views.

First of all, in the US 25% of physicians who were surveyed are agnostic/atheistic in their beliefs. 61% are more likely to cope with major problems in life without relying on God or religious precepts. http://www.answers.com... These are people who dedicate 12+ years of their lives to achieve the status of medical doctor. After 4 years of college they take the MCAT with the hope of being accepted into the medical doctor program at a university. This test is so intense that many students take a year off from classes just to prepare for it. With that being said, it should be quite obvious that becoming an MD takes dedication, intelligence, and a deep desire to help other people. The moral question is a poor argument against atheism.

But is there any reason to just turn Atheist? Aside from the fact that religion myth is probably false? After all, religion act as a conduit that transmit sense of moral values. Bible may be bloody and brutal, but what wrote in bible is not what is taught in your school or church right?

I am no abrahamic but in general, I am pretty sure that the priest won't tell you to kill some non-believer, enslaved their children, and cannibalized their flesh. I am also pretty sure that they will capitalized on the fact that you should behave well with your neighbour, exercises restrain in material ambition, and be forgiving. What's wrong with that?

The atheist belief is that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a god. The only "evidence" that theists have are ancient books describing miracles and communications with a God that has been missing for centuries. Where are the miracles since these ancient books were written?

This is something theists fail to understand: The burden of proof lies with the person who claims that something exists. God is NOT supported by physical evidence. The documented miracles attributed to most of the Gods in the ancient world were simply ignorant misinterpretations of how the natural universe works and science has debunked these "miracles" that are the basis for many of the stories in the Christian Bible and other ancient religious writings. This is the realistic way of looking at religion. Unfortunately, as atheists we are he heretics, the nonconformists and the hated few. That hatred is fear based. Not towards the atheist, but what the atheist mindset represents. Many theists are not emotionally able to accept this reality and cling to false beliefs out of fear.

Law is also govern with fear and intimidation. If believing in religion can make people more socially restrained or at least become a bit nicer, even if you know that the bible is a fairytale there is no reason to simply abandon it right?

Beside, there are religion that doesn't involved supreme being at all for you to choose from as well if the bible version of the fairytale is unpalatable for you.

I do not believe in the existence of a supreme being with no tangible evidence. I also believe that human beings do not need religious instruction or a theistic world view to live a good life and make morally just decisions. I do not believe that my personal moral compass is affected by my disbelief in God. I have been an atheist since I was 12 years old. My moral "world view" is my own. I'm the person that helps someone pay their

it's your indeed. However, if you are religious and also a good person is there a point to become irreligious and good person. If your focus is to do the good thing that's right, you can just do it without casting aside your religion - and possibly the society you used to have as part of that religion.

I know a muslim who have been so disillusioned with his Islam to the point that he considered convert away from it. As you can tell, doing so is effectively cutting ties with his entire rest of family, friends, and the society he used to be a part of. I told him don't, if you are truly good you can do good things with or without your religion, keep your family and friends and your people, and being a good muslim in your own way.

grocery bill at the register if they don't have enough money. I'm the person who picks up garbage in a park and carries it to a trash receptacle. I'm the person who cares for a stray animal and works with local agencies to give it a "new leash on life". I'm the person who donates time to the local hospice organizations to help families in need. I believe that life is precious and all lives matter. My children are loved and have grown up confident and empathetic even without the influence of a church.

I will say this once again and no theist will hear me... theists are wrong about atheists.
seeu46
Posts: 578
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12/22/2014 12:07:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The morals of an Atheist can be just as good as the Theist.

No worse no better.

But at the same time, they can be just as bad as a Theist as well.

Take David Wood for instance. He was an Atheist till he converted to Christianity.

Spent time in the mental facility and jail. He attempted to learn how to make bombs and such and then decided it wasn't enough but quit that for another idea to murder his dad, as he smashed his head in with a hammer. Lucky for the dad he survived and that is how he ended up where he did.

Once in jail he met a Christian and tried to convert him from his religion with arguments or logic.

Eventually he studied Christianity in order to disprove it to his friend but then he changed his ways of thinking due to that path that he took. As he claims he believed he was human 2.0 and everyone else has primitive emotions left from the past, as he was evolved and the superior intellect on the truth of life. That we are just on a mud ball, we live and we die and so he lived accordingly to his ways of no God. Again I'm not saying all Atheists are like this far from it but an Atheist can do some horrible things, just like a Theist can do as well. So lets not go pretending that Atheists are more moral and vise a versa. That is just foolish.

Here's his video on his life as an Atheist and on his conversion, if anyone wants to see it.
https://www.youtube.com...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,560
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12/22/2014 12:10:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:59:20 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:

But is there any reason to just turn Atheist? Aside from the fact that religion myth is probably false? After all, religion act as a conduit that transmit sense of moral values. Bible may be bloody and brutal, but what wrote in bible is not what is taught in your school or church right?

I am no abrahamic but in general, I am pretty sure that the priest won't tell you to kill some non-believer, enslaved their children, and cannibalized their flesh. I am also pretty sure that they will capitalized on the fact that you should behave well with your neighbour, exercises restrain in material ambition, and be forgiving. What's wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that, except for the fact the Bible is not needed to teach children morals and ethics. In fact, you have given good reason why they should NOT be taught using the Bible.

So, if we don't need the Bible, then we don't need the church or the religion. We can just send our kids to school, instead.

Law is also govern with fear and intimidation. If believing in religion can make people more socially restrained or at least become a bit nicer, even if you know that the bible is a fairytale there is no reason to simply abandon it right?

Religion has not been shown to make people nicer, that is a false premise and often contrary to fact.

Beside, there are religion that doesn't involved supreme being at all for you to choose from as well if the bible version of the fairytale is unpalatable for you.

Or, there is the choice of no religions at all. Why do you need religion?

it's your indeed. However, if you are religious and also a good person is there a point to become irreligious and good person. If your focus is to do the good thing that's right, you can just do it without casting aside your religion - and possibly the society you used to have as part of that religion.

Religions are just myths and superstitions. You are as free to support them as you wish, just make sure they remain behind closed doors where they belong.

I know a muslim who have been so disillusioned with his Islam to the point that he considered convert away from it. As you can tell, doing so is effectively cutting ties with his entire rest of family, friends, and the society he used to be a part of. I told him don't, if you are truly good you can do good things with or without your religion, keep your family and friends and your people, and being a good muslim in your own way.

But, if the family and friends ties are that of the religion, then the person and family have no real ties at all.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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12/22/2014 12:15:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:07:33 PM, seeu46 wrote:

Take David Wood for instance. He was an Atheist till he converted to Christianity.

Spent time in the mental facility and jail.

Eventually he studied Christianity in order to disprove it to his friend but then he changed his ways of thinking due to that path that he took

And, we are to take the word of someone who "Spent time in the mental facility and jail."?

Do you not see that Christianity is just another vice to replace a vice in this instance? The problems with David Wood cannot be solved with religion, the religion only masks the problem.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,065
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12/22/2014 1:02:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.

Yes, because atheists are totally a bunch of altruists and theists are incapable of doing a good deed for any reason other than a heavenly reward. Thou hath converted me oh holy saintly atheist...
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Beastt
Posts: 5,135
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12/22/2014 1:16:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 10:01:58 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:40:26 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

The statistics on this run rather dramatically against your assertions. Firstly, based on U.S. Prison surveys, the percentage of Christians in Prison is about 75% (the same as in free society), while the percentage of atheists in U.S. prisons is 0.2%. Depending on survey criteria, the number of atheists in free society is 7 - 16%. That means that Christians are at least 35-times more likely to engage in serious criminal activity than are atheists. Greg Paul performed a statistical analysis of atheists and theists using lesser offenses against social order (i.e. drug use, alcohol abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc.), and found the same basic conclusion - theists are more likely to engage in socially disruptive behaviors than atheists.

So atheists actually demonstrate more moral behavior than theists, and we don't seem to need a book which includes rape, slavery and infanticide as moral acts, as a guide for morality.

Many factors can affect people criminal behaviour, and from my point of view - most of them have more to do with socio-economical rather than moral reason.

do you think a criminal rape people because that is the way of the virtuous person? No, they probably rape a girl because they get horny or because they have a poor and abusive family background that they want to release those energies back to the society. And let's face it your society (I assumed that you are an american) is overwhelmingly religious, so of course the number of religious criminal should outmatch the Atheist one.

Rather than told me why religion myth can be faulty (and they probably are), how about telling me the reason why should we not believe in religion? Especially when, in most, cases your moral concept is a religion copy cat which you should have it in your pre-disown of your religion anyway?
The crime statistics are PER CAPITA. So it doesn't matter that there are more theists than atheists. That's clear if you read my post. It's based on the percentage of theists/atheists in free society, verses the percentage in prison.

Rape isn't about being horny. It's a crime of violence, not of sexual desire. If you believe there is a God, then how can anyone be "overly religious? You shouldn't believe in religions because they're made-up by men. None of them are true and there isn't a shred of evidence for any god.
"If we believe absurdities we shall commit atrocities." -- Voltaire
jodybirdy
Posts: 2,089
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12/22/2014 1:30:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:59:20 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:31:54 AM, jodybirdy wrote:

As an atheist I will be happy to answer these questions. I hope that it will be considered or at best understood. Somehow I see no hope that any theist will open his/her mind and approach this with empathy and understanding. I have come to expect a certain negative reception to my views.

First of all, in the US 25% of physicians who were surveyed are agnostic/atheistic in their beliefs. 61% are more likely to cope with major problems in life without relying on God or religious precepts. http://www.answers.com... These are people who dedicate 12+ years of their lives to achieve the status of medical doctor. After 4 years of college they take the MCAT with the hope of being accepted into the medical doctor program at a university. This test is so intense that many students take a year off from classes just to prepare for it. With that being said, it should be quite obvious that becoming an MD takes dedication, intelligence, and a deep desire to help other people. The moral question is a poor argument against atheism.

But is there any reason to just turn Atheist? Aside from the fact that religion myth is probably false? After all, religion act as a conduit that transmit sense of moral values. Bible may be bloody and brutal, but what wrote in bible is not what is taught in your school or church right?

I am no abrahamic but in general, I am pretty sure that the priest won't tell you to kill some non-believer, enslaved their children, and cannibalized their flesh. I am also pretty sure that they will capitalized on the fact that you should behave well with your neighbour, exercises restrain in material ambition, and be forgiving. What's wrong with that?

The atheist belief is that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of a god. The only "evidence" that theists have are ancient books describing miracles and communications with a God that has been missing for centuries. Where are the miracles since these ancient books were written?

This is something theists fail to understand: The burden of proof lies with the person who claims that something exists. God is NOT supported by physical evidence. The documented miracles attributed to most of the Gods in the ancient world were simply ignorant misinterpretations of how the natural universe works and science has debunked these "miracles" that are the basis for many of the stories in the Christian Bible and other ancient religious writings. This is the realistic way of looking at religion. Unfortunately, as atheists we are he heretics, the nonconformists and the hated few. That hatred is fear based. Not towards the atheist, but what the atheist mindset represents. Many theists are not emotionally able to accept this reality and cling to false beliefs out of fear.

Law is also govern with fear and intimidation. If believing in religion can make people more socially restrained or at least become a bit nicer, even if you know that the bible is a fairytale there is no reason to simply abandon it right?

Beside, there are religion that doesn't involved supreme being at all for you to choose from as well if the bible version of the fairytale is unpalatable for you.

I do not believe in the existence of a supreme being with no tangible evidence. I also believe that human beings do not need religious instruction or a theistic world view to live a good life and make morally just decisions. I do not believe that my personal moral compass is affected by my disbelief in God. I have been an atheist since I was 12 years old. My moral "world view" is my own. I'm the person that helps someone pay their

it's your indeed. However, if you are religious and also a good person is there a point to become irreligious and good person. If your focus is to do the good thing that's right, you can just do it without casting aside your religion - and possibly the society you used to have as part of that religion.

I know a muslim who have been so disillusioned with his Islam to the point that he considered convert away from it. As you can tell, doing so is effectively cutting ties with his entire rest of family, friends, and the society he used to be a part of. I told him don't, if you are truly good you can do good things with or without your religion, keep your family and friends and your people, and being a good muslim in your own way.

grocery bill at the register if they don't have enough money. I'm the person who picks up garbage in a park and carries it to a trash receptacle. I'm the person who cares for a stray animal and works with local agencies to give it a "new leash on life". I'm the person who donates time to the local hospice organizations to help families in need. I believe that life is precious and all lives matter. My children are loved and have grown up confident and empathetic even without the influence of a church.

I will say this once again and no theist will hear me... theists are wrong about atheists.

This life all that I have! Just this one beautiful opportunity to live and love. Imagine that you give someone a gift and it's the very best you can give. It was given for a purpose, for them to use it and experience it. But instead of using that gift they left it in the box and fell to your feet, thanking you and worshiping you because they think that you have an even better gift than the one you gave them. But it was the ultimate gift and was all that you had to give them. They wasted the gift hoping for something even greater. Theists do this. They believe that they will have eternal life and that makes actual life less valuable to them. But there is NO guarantee that there is anything after death. That is reason #1 why I am an atheist and should answer why I'd tell someone being atheist is a good choice.

I promise you that there is absolutely no reason why people can't be loving, good, and grounded even, without religion. What about love? Love is a beautiful thing and we are so fortunate that we're able to experience it as such a strong emotion. If we give our children love and security and teach them to give the same to others, then there is no need for them to fear God, or Hell to be decent people and do good things.

Children learn what they live by Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D. goes as follows:
If children live with...
...criticism, they learn to condemn.
...hostility, they learn to fight.
...fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
...pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
...ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
...jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
...shame, they learn to feel guilty.
...encouragement, they learn confidence.
...tolerance, they learn patience.
...praise, they learn appreciation.
...acceptance, they learn to love.
...approval, they learn to like themselves.
...recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
...sharing, they learn generosity.
...honesty, they learn truthfulness.
...fairness, they learn justice.
...kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
...security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
...friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

NOTE- None of the above requires God or religion. It requires only what we, as parents are already endowed with. Love for our children.

To spend your very best hoping for an afterlife is futile. Spend your best making life better for you and the people around you. That's a good enough philosophy to live by. Religion is not necessary.
A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral."
suttichart.denpruektham
Posts: 1,115
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12/22/2014 11:35:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 1:16:42 PM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:01:58 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 5:40:26 AM, Beastt wrote:
At 12/22/2014 4:57:24 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
One of the most basic argument against Atheist from any religion group is that they are morally nihilist who cast aside their religion to pursuit their selfish goal without moral restriction. This view is of course, at false, and religion is never a guarantee for moral adherent (while most of the Atheist will argue that they still adhered to moral code of conduct despite their lack of belief).

However, to me that's representing the biggest weakness of Atheist as the alternative to religion belief. The most important aspect of religion is that it provide a moral guideline and motivated people to follow it without legal requirement. Indeed, many Atheist who claim to be virtuous, are simply followed whatever moral from their previous belief. Therefore, to some extent, the complete lack of belief from both the atheistic and theistic religion, is immoral or at least less moral than the fully religious person because at the very least you are likely to follow less or less severe code of conduct than the people who follow your original religion.

This might not be the case though, so I would like to ask people who disagree with my statement above to give me the reason why people should abandon their belief for the sake of Atheism. What more can you offer to make the world a better place?

This is a devil advocate post though, I would like to see how would you respond to the question what should be the core moral of atheist as oppose to the standard religion belief. The most basic one doesn't count (don't kill, don't steal, don't lie) because that already cover by the law. Religious moral helps because it make less need to put something under law and improve trust, so if Atheism is superior to religion moral - it should have done a better job in that, if not.. ... why the hell did you following it anyway ;P

The statistics on this run rather dramatically against your assertions. Firstly, based on U.S. Prison surveys, the percentage of Christians in Prison is about 75% (the same as in free society), while the percentage of atheists in U.S. prisons is 0.2%. Depending on survey criteria, the number of atheists in free society is 7 - 16%. That means that Christians are at least 35-times more likely to engage in serious criminal activity than are atheists. Greg Paul performed a statistical analysis of atheists and theists using lesser offenses against social order (i.e. drug use, alcohol abuse, teenage pregnancy, etc.), and found the same basic conclusion - theists are more likely to engage in socially disruptive behaviors than atheists.

So atheists actually demonstrate more moral behavior than theists, and we don't seem to need a book which includes rape, slavery and infanticide as moral acts, as a guide for morality.

Many factors can affect people criminal behaviour, and from my point of view - most of them have more to do with socio-economical rather than moral reason.

do you think a criminal rape people because that is the way of the virtuous person? No, they probably rape a girl because they get horny or because they have a poor and abusive family background that they want to release those energies back to the society. And let's face it your society (I assumed that you are an american) is overwhelmingly religious, so of course the number of religious criminal should outmatch the Atheist one.

Rather than told me why religion myth can be faulty (and they probably are), how about telling me the reason why should we not believe in religion? Especially when, in most, cases your moral concept is a religion copy cat which you should have it in your pre-disown of your religion anyway?
The crime statistics are PER CAPITA. So it doesn't matter that there are more theists than atheists. That's clear if you read my post. It's based on the percentage of theists/atheists in free society, verses the percentage in prison.

How does it not matter? You are drawing your statistic from practically religious population, so of course you are going to have a figure for religious criminal. Can religion or Atheist make a more secure society when that count? Of course not! Because that's the task of a police and political system. You will definitely found the rate of crime and violence exceedingly high even on per capita in a place like Syria and Libya, does that mean the Syrian and Libyan are generally a bad person and evil? Absolutely not! crime rate is high because there is no effective law enforcement to ward off people from committing crime.

Rape isn't about being horny. It's a crime of violence, not of sexual desire. If you believe there is a God, then how can anyone be "overly religious? You shouldn't believe in religions because they're made-up by men. None of them are true and there isn't a shred of evidence for any god.

I never deny that. Religion is probably nothing more than a fairytale - but a fairytale that teach you virtues. Atheist as in the complete lack of religion, Theist and what's not, on the other hand told nothing but the fairytale and story of moral is a lie. And I really see no moral ground from the Atheist side at all, claiming that religion myth is false doesn't make you moral nor make religion moral any less. Many claim that they simply following a primordial code of morality - but in reality they are just following the delude version of their former religion code, an Atheist with Islamic background is likely to remain non-alcoholic while an Atheist with Christian background have no qualm about that but tend to be more socialistic and generous, if the character of your morality fit more with those of your previous believe and share less in common with the other version of "primordial moral".
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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12/22/2014 11:46:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 11:39:20 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:27:25 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 11:23:58 AM, suttichart.denpruektham wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:49:38 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/22/2014 10:37:11 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Let's talk about incentives for doing the right thing under atheism.

Isn't this funny?
Atheists do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
Theists do the right thing because they will be rewarded with an afterlife of pleasure.
Atheists don't seek an incentive, only theists do that.
Who then is a better human being?
Yes you're right, an atheist.

Why, when in the end, assuming that you're perfectly following that, you will both doing the right thing?
You wanna try that again?

It's an honest question, I expect honest answer.

I think BullP was inferring that its a convoluted question with typos and misuse of words such to the fact that its intent cannot be cyphered.

Please, re think and rephrase the question. I think I have an answer, too, but don't know if you are asking what I think you are asking.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
seeu46
Posts: 578
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12/22/2014 11:57:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/22/2014 12:15:12 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/22/2014 12:07:33 PM, seeu46 wrote:

Take David Wood for instance. He was an Atheist till he converted to Christianity.

Spent time in the mental facility and jail.

Eventually he studied Christianity in order to disprove it to his friend but then he changed his ways of thinking due to that path that he took

And, we are to take the word of someone who "Spent time in the mental facility and jail."?

Do you not see that Christianity is just another vice to replace a vice in this instance? The problems with David Wood cannot be solved with religion, the religion only masks the problem.

My point is that an atheist can indeed do terrible things, just like a theist. At the end of the day you will still have a vice, whether you change the vice or not.

But I for one hope in my faith in Christ and I hope it does change David.