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Atheists/agnostics: Let's talk about Islampho

Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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12/24/2014 10:01:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.

There is no such thing as Islamophobia, it is just another bs term used by intolerant, hypocritical Muslims who want to censor people from criticizing Islam.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,750
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12/24/2014 10:21:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.

I think both Christianity and Islam contain many evil immoral ideas. However, they both also contain good, moral ideas.

I think after 9-11 there are more Islamaphobes than Christianphobes. Some people think Christianity is less evil than Islam. Maybe people get mistaken for Islamaphobes when they just do not like religion in general.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/24/2014 10:25:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.

Fear ( phobia ) comes from the lack of knowledge. If Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, Blacks, Whites, Reds, Yellows, etc. all sat down to eat together and talked about everything but religion and politics. we would learn that we all have things in common.

An analogy I like to use to show people how fear is established is the "bogeyman in the woods " story. When parents are raising children near a forest, they tell their children about the bogeyman ( or monster ) in the woods to keep them from getting lost in the forest and possibly dying. Some children grow up with fear of walking in a forest. If they went for a walk in the forest and gain the knowledge that there is no bogeyman in it, they would lose their fear.

Most people are very closed-minded because of all the fears they have. We open-minded saints get taught that we all come from the same source ( information ), also known as the consciousness ( mind ) of our Creator. With this knowledge, we have no fears of anything in this world, not even death of our bodies because we know that information never dies, which is who we are in the mind of God.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 10:57:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.

We can all make baseless claims, the feat is in successfully supporting those claims.
- How does the Qur'an promote sexism?
>>> Bring me authentic proof, not false interpretations made by unlicensed inauthentic sources.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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12/24/2014 11:28:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 10:57:03 AM, YassineB wrote:

We can all make baseless claims, the feat is in successfully supporting those claims.
- How does the Qur'an promote sexism?
>>> Bring me authentic proof, not false interpretations made by unlicensed inauthentic sources.

LOL. What a joke. "unlicensed inauthentic sources".

Translation: Muslims don't accept facts.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 11:41:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 11:28:06 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. What a joke. "unlicensed inauthentic sources".

Translation: Muslims don't accept facts.

- You are tarnishing the name of every respectful atheist out there.
- Advance your arguments, or else you are a Troll.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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12/24/2014 11:51:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 11:41:27 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 11:28:06 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

LOL. What a joke. "unlicensed inauthentic sources".

Translation: Muslims don't accept facts.

- You are tarnishing the name of every respectful atheist out there.
- Advance your arguments, or else you are a Troll.

he isnt a troller he is just cant debate you so the alternative way he has is blame with things that irrelevant to the subject.
Never fart near dog
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 11:56:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 11:51:00 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
he isnt a troller he is just cant debate you so the alternative way he has is blame with things that irrelevant to the subject.

- Thank you. You're the MVP.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/24/2014 11:59:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 10:57:03 AM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.


We can all make baseless claims, the feat is in successfully supporting those claims.
- How does the Qur'an promote sexism?
>>> Bring me authentic proof, not false interpretations made by unlicensed inauthentic sources.

Fair enough. I should've quoted these initially to back of my point in that regard. Examples of a few Qur'an quotes that promote sexism:

"If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great."

"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."

"The share of the male shall be twice that of a female."

. . .
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 2:39:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 11:59:06 AM, Laurelin wrote:

- You could've at least referenced the verses But, no matter.
- I happened to have studied Islamic Law, so this is just a matter of course. Let's do this:

"If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great."

>> You mean this verse:
"As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, advise them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds (or distance yourselves from them), (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)" (4:34)

- According to the Islamic Law, the Ri'aya (Charge in a Sponsorial Relationship, such as Parenthood, Marriage, Guardianship, Allegiance. . .) grants both parties Fundamental Rights:
=> To the Covered: Full Sponsorship, Protection, Responsibility.
=> To the Sponsor: Ta'a (Compliance) & Haq' ar-Ri'aya (Right of Charge).
* Full Sponsorship means: charge of mandatory expanses, namely: housing, clothing, nutrition, furniture, medication, help, jewellery, & even secondary expanses, namely: travel, education. . .
* Protection means guaranteed security in both peace times, & war times.
* Responsibility means: paying for the Restitution Money (if the Covered happens to destroy someone's property by accident) & also the Blood Money (if the Covered happens to kill someone by accident).... (& other stuff).
" Ta'a (Compliance) is an Obligation on the Covered, however, only in Matters that are Good & Reasonable, & thus Compliance is prohibited in Matters which are not Good & Reasonable. In Contractual Relationships (such as Marriages or Allegiances) Compliance is restricted to what is stipulated in the Contract. Good & Reasonable in the sense that Muhammad decreed: "There is no Compliance in matters involving God's disobedience or displeasure. Compliance is obligatory only in what is good & reasonable" [ ^Muslim #4535 ]. Here is a chart to understand what counts as Good & Reasonable.
http://www.docdroid.net...
Therefore:
(+) if a Husband (who is fulfilling his Wife's Dues as required in the Sponsorial Relationship) asks his Wife for sex, then she must Comply (unless there is just cause not to: mental or physical) <<< Because, it is by default stipulated in the Marriage Contract >>> If the Wife refuses, her Husband can not force her <<< & so, she is officially in Rebellion, & subsequently the Husband must proceed as decreed by the Qur'an: "As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, advise them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds (or distance yourselves from them), (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)" (4:34)
> First, he starts by warning her & giving her advice about her behaviour for a while, a month or more.
> If that doesn't work, he should distance himself from her, leave her alone for 3 days to 1 month tops.
> If that doesn't work he may then 'hit' her. In the verse in the Qur'an, it says "Idribuhunna" which the exegetists interpreted as: 'hit them' or 'leave the house' or 'shake them' or 'shout at them' ('Daraba' in Arabic has different meanings).
> Finally, even if all that happens & the only choice he had was to hit his Wife to make her regain her senses, there are rules about hitting:
* Hitting the face is categorically prohibited in Islam.
* Hitting her shall not leave a mark on her skin, or a broken bone... As Ibn 'Abbas (Companion to Muhammad & Exegetist of the Qur'an) described the manner of hitting in his interpretation of the verse, he said: "Bi siwak" meaning with a tap with a pen (or a tiny stick) on the shoulders or on the head.
* Hitting is still discouraged, as Muhammad said: "& those decent among you would not hit [their wives]" [^al-Bayhaq'i #14553]. Muhammad never hit his wives, nor anyone for that matter.
* Hitting is prohibited if the Husband is known to hit his Wife, & it's legally punishable.
> & if that doesn't work, the next verse says: "If you fear a breach between the two (man & wife), appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation" (4:35)
(+) Similarly, If a Wife (who is fulfilling her Husband's dues - meaning sex - ) asks her Husband for furniture - for example - , then he must Comply (unless it's beyond his capacity). <<< Because, it's a default stipulation in the Marriage Contract >>> If the Husbands refuses => then he is officially in Rebellion, & subsequently the Wife must proceed as decreed by the Qur'an: "And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best." (4:128)
> Settlement here means Khul' (Divorce initiated by the Wife), in case the Husband really breached the Marriage Contract.
> Or, it means 'Iftidaa", where the Wife waives some her Rights stipulated in the Contract (like a portion of her expanses) to encourage the Husband to reconcile the Relationship.

>>> On the other hand, according to the Islamic Tradition:

- Muhammad said: "Humans are equal, like a set of a tooth-comb, there is no superiority of the arabs among them over the non-arabs, or the whites among them over the blacks except by piety" [ ^al-Mustadrak #75-6 ]

- "Allah's Fitrah, the Nature in which He has created mankind. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation." (30:30)

==>> Men & Women are Equal in Humanity & Born Equal (in Fitrah).

- "And they (women) have rights (over their husbands.) similar (to those of their husbands) over them, according to what is Equitable" (2:228)

- Muhammad said: "Indeed, Women are Equivalent to Men" [^Abi Dawud #236 ].

==>> Men & Women are Equivalent in Gender. <<< There is Equity between Men & Women.

Source:
http://library.islamweb.net...
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
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12/24/2014 2:39:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 11:59:06 AM, Laurelin wrote:
"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."

"The share of the male shall be twice that of a female."

>>> You mean these:
* "if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female" (4:176)
* "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11)

- As you can notice, in both verses, the Rule that prescribes the quota for Males as double that of Females works only in the case of full siblings.
- According to Islamic Law, there are Three Rules by which Inheritance is divided between the family of the deceased:
1)- Kinship: the closer the inheritor is to the deceased the more he gets.
2)- Generation: the more young the generation the inheritor belongs to the more he gets (children get more than parents, because they have their whole life ahead of them & thus they'll be in more need of the money)
3)- Financial Burden: the more financial burden the inheritor has, the more he gets, meaning:
* The brother (or the son) is legally financially responsible for his sisters, his parents, his wife, & his children. The sister (or the daughter) is not financially responsible for anyone, & thus, the former gets more than the latter.
> As you can see, Gender is NOT a Rule for dividing inheritance, it has nothing to do with males or females.
(+)Eg. in the case of two half-siblings: they both get the same inheritance, because, according to Islamic Law, they have the same level of Kinship, they belong to the same Generation, & have - more or less- the same Financial Burden (in the sense that the brother is not responsible for his half-sister, although he is still responsible for the others)."If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third" (4:12)

>>> Also, according to Inheritance Jurisprudence (a branch of Shari'a Law) there are 6 quotas of inheritance:
2/3 >> all reserved for females, males can't have 2/3.
1/2 >> there are 5 cases of 1/2 quotas, females constitute 4 of these cases, & males 1 case.
1/3 >> there are 4 such cases, only one case goes to males.
1/4 >> there are 2 such cases, 1 male & 1 female.
1/6 >> there are 8 such cases, 3 go to the male & 5 to the female.
1/8 >> there are 2 such cases, & they all go to females.
==>> Conclusion: from a quota point of view, quotas ~21% go to males, & ~79% go to females.

>>> Furthermore:
> There are 4 sets where the females get half the quotas of the males (full-brothers/sisters, children siblings, parents (if there are no children), husband/wife)
> There are 7 sets where the females get the same amount as the males. (Eg. father (1/6) + mother (1/6) + daughter (1/2)..)
> There are 10 sets where the females get more than the males. (Eg. above)
> There are 4 sets where the females get some & the males get nothing.
==>> Conclusion: from a sets point of view, females have a chance of 84% to get the same or more the quotas of males.

>>> Moreover, from an overall view of all sets, situations & quotas:
> Females get the same inheritance or more than the males in ~67% of situations.

===>>> I could go on all day, & no matter how we look at it, females are still gonna get more than males. & that's because of this:

- According to the Islamic Tradition:
> Men are inherently able (suitable, fit for, entitled to, capable") to deliver Material Functions ("Madyat" in Arabic).
> Women are inherently able (suitable, fit for, entitled to, capable") to deliver Immaterial Functions (morals, affections, emotions, sentiments, feelings") ("Ma"nawyat" in Arabic).

>>> Therefore, the Islamic Tradition, throughout its teachings, ensures that Women are compensated in the Material Realm, & that Men are compensated in the Immaterial Realm, so that they are both in the same Equitable Position.

> For Men:
" It"s evident that Men are physically superior to Women, (no need for Islam to explain that). So, as Islam decrees, Women can not be responsible for Men in "Materialistics', & thus, Women have a Right over Men in respect to "Materialistics'. Hence, they are compensated.

> For Women:
" According to the Islamic Tradition: Women are the Source of Mercy & Compassion in the human world:

- "Abd Rahmen Ibn "Awf reported: he heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) say: "Allah the Exalted has said: "I am Allah the Compassionate ("Rahman" in Arabic). I created the Womb (Rahim in Arabic), and named it after My Name. Whoever joins it, I shall join him, and whoever cuts it off, I shall cut him off"" [ ^at-Tirmidhi #1907 ].

>> God put his Mercy & Compassion in the Womb, & made it the source & purpose of His Mercy. For that reason, Women are inherently superior to Men in respect to morals & spirituality. & thus, Men have a Right over Women in regards to "Immaterialistics". Hence, they are compensated.

>>> Conclusion, according to the Islamic Tradition, Women should be privileged in regards to the Material Realm, & Men should be privileged in regards to the Immaterial Realm.
>>> & That's how Equity is understood in the Islamic Tradition.

===>>> & so, across all Islamic Law, females always get more than males in material aspects, without exception. Women are allowed to wear gold & silk, men aren't ; women are exempt from paying Zakat on their jewellery, men aren't ; female widows get a quota of 1 year of expanses from their deceased husband, male widowers don't ; men pay alimonies, women don't ; grooms pay the Dower, brides don't (Dowry) ; a widow is entitled double the amount of Blood Money (in case her husband was killed by accident) than the widower (whose wife also got killed b accident) gets... & so on & so forth...

Source:
'Bayan al-Islam,' vol 18.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
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12/24/2014 2:53:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 2:39:31 PM, YassineB wrote:

>>> You mean these:
* "if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female" (4:176)
* "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11)

> As you can see, Gender is NOT a Rule for dividing inheritance, it has nothing to do with males or females.

Beautiful contradiction. Well done.


> For Men:
" It"s evident that Men are physically superior to Women, (no need for Islam to explain that).

Sorry, but there are lots of women who could kick the backside of lots of men in a great deal of physical activities. Islam is wrong in that regard.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
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12/24/2014 2:56:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 2:53:39 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/24/2014 2:39:31 PM, YassineB wrote:

>>> You mean these:
* "if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female" (4:176)
* "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11)

> As you can see, Gender is NOT a Rule for dividing inheritance, it has nothing to do with males or females.

Beautiful contradiction. Well done.

- Contradiction? Please, elaborate.

Sorry, but there are lots of women who could kick the backside of lots of men in a great deal of physical activities. Islam is wrong in that regard.

- As there are some men who are spiritually superior to some women, exceptions don't make the Rule, Norms do.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,633
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12/24/2014 2:59:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 2:39:27 PM, YassineB wrote:
... as decreed by the Qur'an: "As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, advise them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds (or distance yourselves from them), (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)" (4:34)
> First, he starts by warning her & giving her advice about her behaviour for a while, a month or more.
> If that doesn't work, he should distance himself from her, leave her alone for 3 days to 1 month tops.
> If that doesn't work he may then 'hit' her. In the verse in the Qur'an, it says "Idribuhunna" which the exegetists interpreted as: 'hit them' or 'leave the house' or 'shake them' or 'shout at them' ('Daraba' in Arabic has different meanings).
> Finally, even if all that happens & the only choice he had was to hit his Wife to make her regain her senses, there are rules about hitting:
* Hitting the face is categorically prohibited in Islam.
* Hitting her shall not leave a mark on her skin, or a broken bone... As Ibn 'Abbas (Companion to Muhammad & Exegetist of the Qur'an) described the manner of hitting in his interpretation of the verse, he said: "Bi siwak" meaning with a tap with a pen (or a tiny stick) on the shoulders or on the head.

That is an absolutely disgusting verse and explanation. More evidence the Quran promotes violence as the way to solve problems.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
YassineB
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12/24/2014 3:01:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 2:59:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/24/2014 2:39:27 PM, YassineB wrote:
... as decreed by the Qur'an: "As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, advise them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds (or distance yourselves from them), (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)" (4:34)
> First, he starts by warning her & giving her advice about her behaviour for a while, a month or more.
> If that doesn't work, he should distance himself from her, leave her alone for 3 days to 1 month tops.
> If that doesn't work he may then 'hit' her. In the verse in the Qur'an, it says "Idribuhunna" which the exegetists interpreted as: 'hit them' or 'leave the house' or 'shake them' or 'shout at them' ('Daraba' in Arabic has different meanings).
> Finally, even if all that happens & the only choice he had was to hit his Wife to make her regain her senses, there are rules about hitting:
* Hitting the face is categorically prohibited in Islam.
* Hitting her shall not leave a mark on her skin, or a broken bone... As Ibn 'Abbas (Companion to Muhammad & Exegetist of the Qur'an) described the manner of hitting in his interpretation of the verse, he said: "Bi siwak" meaning with a tap with a pen (or a tiny stick) on the shoulders or on the head.

That is an absolutely disgusting verse and explanation. More evidence the Quran promotes violence as the way to solve problems.

- Yeah? How so?
- If you don't have any arguments, why should I take you seriously?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/24/2014 3:55:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 2:39:31 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 11:59:06 AM, Laurelin wrote:
"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."

"The share of the male shall be twice that of a female."


>>> You mean these:
* "if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female" (4:176)
* "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11)

- As you can notice, in both verses, the Rule that prescribes the quota for Males as double that of Females works only in the case of full siblings.
- According to Islamic Law, there are Three Rules by which Inheritance is divided between the family of the deceased:
1)- Kinship: the closer the inheritor is to the deceased the more he gets.
2)- Generation: the more young the generation the inheritor belongs to the more he gets (children get more than parents, because they have their whole life ahead of them & thus they'll be in more need of the money)
3)- Financial Burden: the more financial burden the inheritor has, the more he gets, meaning:
* The brother (or the son) is legally financially responsible for his sisters, his parents, his wife, & his children. The sister (or the daughter) is not financially responsible for anyone, & thus, the former gets more than the latter.
> As you can see, Gender is NOT a Rule for dividing inheritance, it has nothing to do with males or females.
(+)Eg. in the case of two half-siblings: they both get the same inheritance, because, according to Islamic Law, they have the same level of Kinship, they belong to the same Generation, & have - more or less- the same Financial Burden (in the sense that the brother is not responsible for his half-sister, although he is still responsible for the others)."If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third" (4:12)

>>> Also, according to Inheritance Jurisprudence (a branch of Shari'a Law) there are 6 quotas of inheritance:
2/3 >> all reserved for females, males can't have 2/3.
1/2 >> there are 5 cases of 1/2 quotas, females constitute 4 of these cases, & males 1 case.
1/3 >> there are 4 such cases, only one case goes to males.
1/4 >> there are 2 such cases, 1 male & 1 female.
1/6 >> there are 8 such cases, 3 go to the male & 5 to the female.
1/8 >> there are 2 such cases, & they all go to females.
==>> Conclusion: from a quota point of view, quotas ~21% go to males, & ~79% go to females.

>>> Furthermore:
> There are 4 sets where the females get half the quotas of the males (full-brothers/sisters, children siblings, parents (if there are no children), husband/wife)
> There are 7 sets where the females get the same amount as the males. (Eg. father (1/6) + mother (1/6) + daughter (1/2)..)
> There are 10 sets where the females get more than the males. (Eg. above)
> There are 4 sets where the females get some & the males get nothing.
==>> Conclusion: from a sets point of view, females have a chance of 84% to get the same or more the quotas of males.

>>> Moreover, from an overall view of all sets, situations & quotas:
> Females get the same inheritance or more than the males in ~67% of situations.

===>>> I could go on all day, & no matter how we look at it, females are still gonna get more than males. & that's because of this:

- According to the Islamic Tradition:
> Men are inherently able (suitable, fit for, entitled to, capable") to deliver Material Functions ("Madyat" in Arabic).
> Women are inherently able (suitable, fit for, entitled to, capable") to deliver Immaterial Functions (morals, affections, emotions, sentiments, feelings") ("Ma"nawyat" in Arabic).

>>> Therefore, the Islamic Tradition, throughout its teachings, ensures that Women are compensated in the Material Realm, & that Men are compensated in the Immaterial Realm, so that they are both in the same Equitable Position.

> For Men:
" It"s evident that Men are physically superior to Women, (no need for Islam to explain that). So, as Islam decrees, Women can not be responsible for Men in "Materialistics', & thus, Women have a Right over Men in respect to "Materialistics'. Hence, they are compensated.

> For Women:
" According to the Islamic Tradition: Women are the Source of Mercy & Compassion in the human world:

- "Abd Rahmen Ibn "Awf reported: he heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) say: "Allah the Exalted has said: "I am Allah the Compassionate ("Rahman" in Arabic). I created the Womb (Rahim in Arabic), and named it after My Name. Whoever joins it, I shall join him, and whoever cuts it off, I shall cut him off"" [ ^at-Tirmidhi #1907 ].

>> God put his Mercy & Compassion in the Womb, & made it the source & purpose of His Mercy. For that reason, Women are inherently superior to Men in respect to morals & spirituality. & thus, Men have a Right over Women in regards to "Immaterialistics". Hence, they are compensated.

>>> Conclusion, according to the Islamic Tradition, Women should be privileged in regards to the Material Realm, & Men should be privileged in regards to the Immaterial Realm.
>>> & That's how Equity is understood in the Islamic Tradition.

===>>> & so, across all Islamic Law, females always get more than males in material aspects, without exception. Women are allowed to wear gold & silk, men aren't ; women are exempt from paying Zakat on their jewellery, men aren't ; female widows get a quota of 1 year of expanses from their deceased husband, male widowers don't ; men pay alimonies, women don't ; grooms pay the Dower, brides don't (Dowry) ; a widow is entitled double the amount of Blood Money (in case her husband was killed by accident) than the widower (whose wife also got killed b accident) gets... & so on & so forth...
Source:
'Bayan al-Islam,' vol 18

I suppose it's too late to mention that this was supposed to be a conversation about how people perceive people who are supposedly "Islamphobic" and not a debate on religion.
Which is why I said "Atheists/agnostics", or really, anyone who can look at the subject of the conversation objectively from their religion and without going down an irrelevant path.

Anyways. While in Rome.

If you plug my quotes into google, you'll get exact matches. I apologize for not referencing verses, but I'm not going to debate the finer details of translation differences. That's a pretty fruitless path to go down.

Your quotes are actually still pretty sexist, tbh. And gender roles are the stem of sexism.

Also, just curious: while on the topic of debating the morality
Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/24/2014 3:56:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Post got cut off: While debating the morality of the qur'an, are we going to conveniently ignore the topic of Aisha?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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12/24/2014 3:58:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that any sort of blanket 'phobic' reaction to Islam or Chriatianity is due to either a lack of understanding regarding the doctrinal nuances and diversities of both faiths or a misbegotten desire for simple answers to complex questions. I'm an atheist, but I find religion to be fascinating facet of human behaviour, one which can both inspire and horrify, which can build and destroy. It is a fundamental cultural cement, and a part of the elaborate setting which makes life, in all of its inexhaustible variety, so enthralling.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/24/2014 4:03:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 3:01:35 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 2:59:33 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/24/2014 2:39:27 PM, YassineB wrote:
... as decreed by the Qur'an: "As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, advise them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds (or distance yourselves from them), (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance)" (4:34)
> First, he starts by warning her & giving her advice about her behaviour for a while, a month or more.
> If that doesn't work, he should distance himself from her, leave her alone for 3 days to 1 month tops.
> If that doesn't work he may then 'hit' her. In the verse in the Qur'an, it says "Idribuhunna" which the exegetists interpreted as: 'hit them' or 'leave the house' or 'shake them' or 'shout at them' ('Daraba' in Arabic has different meanings).
> Finally, even if all that happens & the only choice he had was to hit his Wife to make her regain her senses, there are rules about hitting:
* Hitting the face is categorically prohibited in Islam.
* Hitting her shall not leave a mark on her skin, or a broken bone... As Ibn 'Abbas (Companion to Muhammad & Exegetist of the Qur'an) described the manner of hitting in his interpretation of the verse, he said: "Bi siwak" meaning with a tap with a pen (or a tiny stick) on the shoulders or on the head.

That is an absolutely disgusting verse and explanation. More evidence the Quran promotes violence as the way to solve problems.

- Yeah? How so?
- If you don't have any arguments, why should I take you seriously?

Firstly, any degree of violence is wrong.
Secondly, can women hit men? Must men be obedient to women? Sexism.
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/24/2014 4:07:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 2:39:31 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 11:59:06 AM, Laurelin wrote:
"Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise."

"The share of the male shall be twice that of a female."


>>> You mean these:
* "if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female" (4:176)
* "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11)

- As you can notice, in both verses, the Rule that prescribes the quota for Males as double that of Females works only in the case of full siblings.
- According to Islamic Law, there are Three Rules by which Inheritance is divided between the family of the deceased:
1)- Kinship: the closer the inheritor is to the deceased the more he gets.
2)- Generation: the more young the generation the inheritor belongs to the more he gets (children get more than parents, because they have their whole life ahead of them & thus they'll be in more need of the money)
3)- Financial Burden: the more financial burden the inheritor has, the more he gets, meaning:
* The brother (or the son) is legally financially responsible for his sisters, his parents, his wife, & his children. The sister (or the daughter) is not financially responsible for anyone, & thus, the former gets more than the latter.
> As you can see, Gender is NOT a Rule for dividing inheritance, it has nothing to do with males or females.
(+)Eg. in the case of two half-siblings: they both get the same inheritance, because, according to Islamic Law, they have the same level of Kinship, they belong to the same Generation, & have - more or less- the same Financial Burden (in the sense that the brother is not responsible for his half-sister, although he is still responsible for the others)."If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third" (4:12)

>>> Also, according to Inheritance Jurisprudence (a branch of Shari'a Law) there are 6 quotas of inheritance:
2/3 >> all reserved for females, males can't have 2/3.
1/2 >> there are 5 cases of 1/2 quotas, females constitute 4 of these cases, & males 1 case.
1/3 >> there are 4 such cases, only one case goes to males.
1/4 >> there are 2 such cases, 1 male & 1 female.
1/6 >> there are 8 such cases, 3 go to the male & 5 to the female.
1/8 >> there are 2 such cases, & they all go to females.
==>> Conclusion: from a quota point of view, quotas ~21% go to males, & ~79% go to females.

>>> Furthermore:
> There are 4 sets where the females get half the quotas of the males (full-brothers/sisters, children siblings, parents (if there are no children), husband/wife)
> There are 7 sets where the females get the same amount as the males. (Eg. father (1/6) + mother (1/6) + daughter (1/2)..)
> There are 10 sets where the females get more than the males. (Eg. above)
> There are 4 sets where the females get some & the males get nothing.
==>> Conclusion: from a sets point of view, females have a chance of 84% to get the same or more the quotas of males.

>>> Moreover, from an overall view of all sets, situations & quotas:
> Females get the same inheritance or more than the males in ~67% of situations.

===>>> I could go on all day, & no matter how we look at it, females are still gonna get more than males. & that's because of this:

- According to the Islamic Tradition:
> Men are inherently able (suitable, fit for, entitled to, capable") to deliver Material Functions ("Madyat" in Arabic).
> Women are inherently able (suitable, fit for, entitled to, capable") to deliver Immaterial Functions (morals, affections, emotions, sentiments, feelings") ("Ma"nawyat" in Arabic).

>>> Therefore, the Islamic Tradition, throughout its teachings, ensures that Women are compensated in the Material Realm, & that Men are compensated in the Immaterial Realm, so that they are both in the same Equitable Position.

> For Men:
" It"s evident that Men are physically superior to Women, (no need for Islam to explain that). So, as Islam decrees, Women can not be responsible for Men in "Materialistics', & thus, Women have a Right over Men in respect to "Materialistics'. Hence, they are compensated.

> For Women:
" According to the Islamic Tradition: Women are the Source of Mercy & Compassion in the human world:

- "Abd Rahmen Ibn "Awf reported: he heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) say: "Allah the Exalted has said: "I am Allah the Compassionate ("Rahman" in Arabic). I created the Womb (Rahim in Arabic), and named it after My Name. Whoever joins it, I shall join him, and whoever cuts it off, I shall cut him off"" [ ^at-Tirmidhi #1907 ].

>> God put his Mercy & Compassion in the Womb, & made it the source & purpose of His Mercy. For that reason, Women are inherently superior to Men in respect to morals & spirituality. & thus, Men have a Right over Women in regards to "Immaterialistics". Hence, they are compensated.

>>> Conclusion, according to the Islamic Tradition, Women should be privileged in regards to the Material Realm, & Men should be privileged in regards to the Immaterial Realm.
>>> & That's how Equity is understood in the Islamic Tradition.

===>>> & so, across all Islamic Law, females always get more than males in material aspects, without exception. Women are allowed to wear gold & silk, men aren't ; women are exempt from paying Zakat on their jewellery, men aren't ; female widows get a quota of 1 year of expanses from their deceased husband, male widowers don't ; men pay alimonies, women don't ; grooms pay the Dower, brides don't (Dowry) ; a widow is entitled double the amount of Blood Money (in case her husband was killed by accident) than the widower (whose wife also got killed b accident) gets... & so on & so forth...

Source:
'Bayan al-Islam,' vol 18.

All of which simply implies that women are worth less, have less, are less than men and that they are more property than partners in their marriages.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 4:08:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 3:56:10 PM, Laurelin wrote:
I suppose it's too late to mention that this was supposed to be a conversation about how people perceive people who are supposedly "Islamphobic" and not a debate on religion.

- Foreign premises have slipped into your post I guess.

Which is why I said "Atheists/agnostics", or really, anyone who can look at the subject of the conversation objectively from their religion and without going down an irrelevant path.

- As long as we are having a productive conversation, I don't mind.

Anyways. While in Rome.
If you plug my quotes into google, you'll get exact matches. I apologize for not referencing verses, but I'm not going to debate the finer details of translation differences. That's a pretty fruitless path to go down.

- Don't worry, I know the entirely of the Qur'an, I can guess which verse is which.
- They are not technically translations, they are more like english interpretations.

Your quotes are actually still pretty sexist, tbh. And gender roles are the stem of sexism.

- Elaborate, How so? <<< Arguments Laurelin arguments ;)

Also, just curious: While debating the morality of the qur'an, are we going to conveniently ignore the topic of Aisha?

- What do you mean 'conveniently'!!! This is a debate, not a social call.
- You got a case? present it. You got arguments? advance them.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 4:09:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 4:07:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
All of which simply implies that women are worth less, have less, are less than men and that they are more property than partners in their marriages.

- No argument = blah blah blah.
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
UtherPenguin
Posts: 3,683
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12/24/2014 4:11:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 11:28:06 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 12/24/2014 10:57:03 AM, YassineB wrote:

We can all make baseless claims, the feat is in successfully supporting those claims.
- How does the Qur'an promote sexism?
>>> Bring me authentic proof, not false interpretations made by unlicensed inauthentic sources.

LOL. What a joke. "unlicensed inauthentic sources".

Translation: Muslims don't accept facts.
People like you are the reason stereotype of arrogant atheism exists.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
dhardage
Posts: 4,545
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12/24/2014 4:13:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 4:09:49 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 4:07:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
All of which simply implies that women are worth less, have less, are less than men and that they are more property than partners in their marriages.

- No argument = blah blah blah.

None needed when your own words do the job. Men have to pay for the women they marry, they have to pay taxes that women don't. Implicit in this is that men have to buy their wives and that the wives have no money with which to pay taxes. You can use all the apologetics you want but facts don't change.
YassineB
Posts: 1,003
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12/24/2014 4:15:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 4:13:10 PM, dhardage wrote:
None needed when your own words do the job. Men have to pay for the women they marry, they have to pay taxes that women don't. Implicit in this is that men have to buy their wives and that the wives have no money with which to pay taxes. You can use all the apologetics you want but facts don't change.

- Alright, where on earth is the correlation between exempt from paying taxes & not having money?
Current Debates In Voting Period:

- The Qur'an We Have Today is Not What Muhammad Dictated Verbatim. Vs. @Envisage:
http://www.debate.org...

- Drawing Contest. Vs. @purpleduck:
http://www.debate.org...

"It is perfectly permissible to vote on sources without reading them" bluesteel.
Laurelin
Posts: 16
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12/24/2014 4:17:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 3:58:05 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that any sort of blanket 'phobic' reaction to Islam or Chriatianity is due to either a lack of understanding regarding the doctrinal nuances and diversities of both faiths or a misbegotten desire for simple answers to complex questions. I'm an atheist, but I find religion to be fascinating facet of human behaviour, one which can both inspire and horrify, which can build and destroy. It is a fundamental cultural cement, and a part of the elaborate setting which makes life, in all of its inexhaustible variety, so enthralling.

I typically don't view religion as a societal enrichment/poison of sorts, but your perspective is pretty thought-provoking, I must admit. Do I think the world would be much better off without religion? Yeah, of course. It's, well, delusion. I value logic and the pursuit of knowledge above pretty much everything. But your perspective is very interesting, and I applaud you for being less cynical on the subject than I.
LifeMeansGodIsGood
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12/24/2014 4:18:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:
As a religion. Not an ethnic subject in this conversation. Let's just bypass the element of the unfortunate correlation between Islamphobia and racism here, because it's a separate dynamic, and it's not relevant to the points I want to make.

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either. That isn't to say that some of the followers aren't peaceful. But their books certainly promote a lot of horrific things, whether they cherry pick those things or not.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems. So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

I'd like to know if any of you have had a similar experience, or if you have any points to make to refute my opinions. I mean, I'm pretty open-minded towards anyone who makes a rational point.

The point you are making here is in support of equating Christianity to Islam by saying neither is peaceful, so you are in error and will not have any power in your argument against slamphobia. Will you be afraid of Muslims when they force you to bow before them and say "God's name is Allah, and Muhammed is his prophet"? Will you tell them you would rather let them behead you than to convert to Islam? That is their goal in world domination.

The promises of God for mankind through Jesus Christ is peace. God will stop the wars, Jesus Christ will rule the world from Mt. Zion.

Do you forget the Christmas message? "......: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Islam was founded through war and is promoted by violence and intimidation. You can't blame God for executing you as a sinner, and maybe He will use Muslims to do it.
Don't be afriad say the Muslims.

Merry Christmas. Repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from your sin, death, and Hell. Don't blame God for your death, thank Him for your life.
fazz
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12/24/2014 4:27:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 9:57:45 AM, Laurelin wrote:

Here's the thing. As a secular person, I'm disdainful towards religion. The entire scope of religions, to be exact. Christianity isn't a peaceful religion. Islam isn't, either.

When I say, Islam is a sexist religion, that's actually a fact. The Qur'an promotes sexism, regardless of which Muslims follow those teachings. The Bible also promotes sexism. I have an extreme dislike for both belief systems.

So I feel that it is irrational for me to be occasionally perceived as Islamphobic, even by fellow atheists and agnostics, when I have an equal dislike for other religions. I'm simply disdainful towards religion, and I never hesitate to debate a person on the reliability of any religion.

I suppose I struggle to understand why some fellow secular people (the ones most commonly found on tumblr) practically praise those who speak out against Christianity, but if one speaks out about Islam as a religion, they're perceived as "phobic" and insensitive and racist?

Thank you for this question!

I think the simple answer would be that 70% of the country is Christianity. Muslims are a small part so they are considered a minority. I dont like the word either but when people do use the word, islamphobic, they mean that it is unfair because a minority deserve special treatment. I do not agree with this but this is how liberals view it.

In short, Muslim is the new black?
Laurelin
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12/24/2014 4:31:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/24/2014 4:08:55 PM, YassineB wrote:
At 12/24/2014 3:56:10 PM, Laurelin wrote:
I suppose it's too late to mention that this was supposed to be a conversation about how people perceive people who are supposedly "Islamphobic" and not a debate on religion.

- Foreign premises have slipped into your post I guess.

Which is why I said "Atheists/agnostics", or really, anyone who can look at the subject of the conversation objectively from their religion and without going down an irrelevant path.

- As long as we are having a productive conversation, I don't mind.

Anyways. While in Rome.
If you plug my quotes into google, you'll get exact matches. I apologize for not referencing verses, but I'm not going to debate the finer details of translation differences. That's a pretty fruitless path to go down.

- Don't worry, I know the entirely of the Qur'an, I can guess which verse is which.
- They are not technically translations, they are more like english interpretations.

Your quotes are actually still pretty sexist, tbh. And gender roles are the stem of sexism.

- Elaborate, How so? <<< Arguments Laurelin arguments ;)

Also, just curious: While debating the morality of the qur'an, are we going to conveniently ignore the topic of Aisha?

- What do you mean 'conveniently'!!! This is a debate, not a social call.
- You got a case? present it. You got arguments? advance them.

Fair enough.

There's presumably no way of determining which "interpretation" is the original, which I why I find myself hesitant to focus on your verses. But whatever.

Gender roles = inequality. If a man can hit his wife, but a wife can't hit her husband, that's Inequality, which is wrong. Inequality leads to sexism, minor or major.

Kay, Aisha. Pedophilia is extremely immoral. There's no getting around that fact. I fail to see why Muhammad is considered decent when he was, in fact, a pedophile.