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God: Finite or Infinite?

GeoLaureate8
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6/2/2010 1:16:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To the God-believers, is God finite or infinite?

I know it is commonly held that he is infinite, but how does this make sense?

God is outside of time-space.
Evil is the ABSENSE of God.
God is not in Hell.
People are not God.
He specifically incarnated in Jesus and no one else.

So how is it possible for God to be infinite given the above?

I bring this up because people were giving me grief in my debate because I made a syllogism to refute a God, who indeed must be finite. My opponent then later defined God as infinite so I changed my syllogism so that, even if God were infinite, he would still be refuted.

People like Kinesis didn't understand that, and unfortunately I am having to take the fall for the theists own theological inconsistencies.

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/2/2010 1:28:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:16:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To the God-believers, is God finite or infinite?

Help me understand why the statements below (which i am not necessarily agreeing with as givens) would render God finite?

I know it is commonly held that he is infinite, but how does this make sense?

God is outside of time-space.
Evil is the ABSENSE of God.
God is not in Hell.
People are not God.
He specifically incarnated in Jesus and no one else.

So how is it possible for God to be infinite given the above?

I bring this up because people were giving me grief in my debate because I made a syllogism to refute a God, who indeed must be finite. My opponent then later defined God as infinite so I changed my syllogism so that, even if God were infinite, he would still be refuted.

People like Kinesis didn't understand that, and unfortunately I am having to take the fall for the theists own theological inconsistencies.


.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/2/2010 1:35:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster

.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/2/2010 1:36:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why are you obsessively "fighting" God? Just let it go. Is it that you want to convert people over to your side? I dunno. You do sometimes have some good ideas but when people point out weaknesses in your reasoning, you fight them on it & stubbornly continue. Anyways...

Is God finite or infinite? I think He's infinite.
God is outside of time-space. I would say yes and add that space-time is a subset of Him.
Evil is the ABSENCE of God. I'd say not exactly. I think evil is to willfully ignore God.
God is not in Hell. I would say yes BUT that He purposefully hides from there. In other words, one could think of it like this: He might be there but not allow His presence to be known.
People are not God. Yes, other than JC.
He specifically incarnated in Jesus and no one else. Yes, I think so.

So how is it possible for God to be infinite given the above? I don't see a problem with that. Care to explain?
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kinesis
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6/2/2010 1:42:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:35:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster


.

'extending indefinitely'?

Theistic God is non-spacial.

'subject to no limitation'

Theists who know what they're talking about believe God is limited by his own nature.
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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6/2/2010 1:43:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:35:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster


.
I know what infinite means, sheesh; i meant why would your line of assertions render him finite?
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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6/2/2010 1:44:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Geo; you ask such stupid questions sometimes.

infinite in all that we call reality. being all powerful he can create a place apart from that that he will put you in total separation from him. and even though hell is a place were your separated from God, that doesn't necessarily indicate he is not there. I say this because we also say that since the first sin made by Adam man has been separated from god. So you can take hell to mean a more extream form of separation in the literal since of his not existing in that space; or just specifically to man and demon and whatever else that might go there.

in the sword of truth book Richard creates another reality that is not connected to his own in any way; then in the law of nines Goodkind explains this to be the same as the bubble universe theory http://web.uvic.ca...
So if one can fathom man doing that with some power, its not hard to fathom it being done with all power.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Kinesis
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6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/2/2010 2:04:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM, Kinesis wrote:
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.

I wouldn't say it's semantics, it's an important nuance that must be distinguished.

If what you're saying is true, then surely I was right initially to argue against a finite being who is only metaphorically infinite.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/2/2010 2:09:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:43:07 PM, innomen wrote:
At 6/2/2010 1:35:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster


.
I know what infinite means, sheesh; i meant why would your line of assertions render him finite?

If God is limitless and extends indefinitely, then it can't be said that he is here, but not there, that he is Jesus, but not Satan, he is good, but not evil, he is in Heaven, but not Hell.

These are a bunch of limitations and shows he doesn't extend indefinitely.

If he were truly infinite, he would be everywhere, everything, and everyone.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/2/2010 2:19:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:04:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM, Kinesis wrote:
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.

I wouldn't say it's semantics, it's an important nuance that must be distinguished.

If what you're saying is true, then surely I was right initially to argue against a finite being who is only metaphorically infinite.

But it's a metaphorical definition to begin with: Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster

A definition *is* a limitation in and of itself.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/2/2010 2:35:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:04:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM, Kinesis wrote:
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.

I wouldn't say it's semantics, it's an important nuance that must be distinguished.

If what you're saying is true, then surely I was right initially to argue against a finite being who is only metaphorically infinite.

As I recall, your initial argument entailed that God created himself.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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6/2/2010 2:39:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
@tboone

That is irrelevant. Your assertion renders it impossible to even discuss this. We must understand what "infinite" is to have a discussion about it. Basically, your reply is an evasion and not an actual argument.

It's as useless as when solipsists say "How do you know that? You can't prove anything exists."

We must have a frame of reference and clearly defined grounds to have a logical discussion.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/2/2010 2:47:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:19:55 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/2/2010 2:04:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM, Kinesis wrote:
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.

I wouldn't say it's semantics, it's an important nuance that must be distinguished.

If what you're saying is true, then surely I was right initially to argue against a finite being who is only metaphorically infinite.

But it's a metaphorical definition to begin with: Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster

A definition *is* a limitation in and of itself.

lol, called something 'unlimited' subjects it to a limitation? What limitation?
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/2/2010 2:59:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:47:01 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/2/2010 2:19:55 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/2/2010 2:04:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM, Kinesis wrote:
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.

I wouldn't say it's semantics, it's an important nuance that must be distinguished.

If what you're saying is true, then surely I was right initially to argue against a finite being who is only metaphorically infinite.

But it's a metaphorical definition to begin with: Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster

A definition *is* a limitation in and of itself.

lol, called something 'unlimited' subjects it to a limitation? What limitation?

It is not a difficult concept to grasp. If it is unlimited then one of its limitations is that it has no limitations. There is now something that it is not and consequently it isn't really unlimited.

As you can see, there are contradictions when using such metaphorical definitions that lack a limited scope.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/2/2010 3:05:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:39:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
@tboone

That is irrelevant. Your assertion renders it impossible to even discuss this. We must understand what "infinite" is to have a discussion about it. Basically, your reply is an evasion and not an actual argument.

It's as useless as when solipsists say "How do you know that? You can't prove anything exists."

We must have a frame of reference and clearly defined grounds to have a logical discussion.

We cannot have a clear discussion when you have a meaningless definition. With a definition that is contradictory, one cannot go any further. It is much like the definition of NOTHING: it's actually a meaningless contradiction in terms because actual "nothingness" does not exist physically.

Additionally, REAL infinites do not exist in physical form either. When we speak of the Universe as being "all that is" that does NOT necessarily imply an actual infinity. It is infinite in the sense that it encompasses all, but not in the sense that it is a physical expression of an actual infinity.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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6/3/2010 2:54:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 2:59:45 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/2/2010 2:47:01 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 6/2/2010 2:19:55 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 6/2/2010 2:04:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 6/2/2010 1:47:09 PM, Kinesis wrote:
This is just semantics over the word 'infinite', Geo. When theists use the word they don't mean that God is actually the teacup in your kitchen.

I wouldn't say it's semantics, it's an important nuance that must be distinguished.

If what you're saying is true, then surely I was right initially to argue against a finite being who is only metaphorically infinite.

But it's a metaphorical definition to begin with: Infinite: extending indefinitely; subject to no limitation - Merriam-Webster

A definition *is* a limitation in and of itself.

lol, called something 'unlimited' subjects it to a limitation? What limitation?

It is not a difficult concept to grasp. If it is unlimited then one of its limitations is that it has no limitations. There is now something that it is not and consequently it isn't really unlimited.

As you can see, there are contradictions when using such metaphorical definitions that lack a limited scope.

I'm not sure about this...is a 'limitation' the same thing as a 'property'? I think you're conflating the two when they aren't the same. A property could be one of unlimited power or knowledge (which are probably logically contradictory, but whatever), but that wouldn't limit it in any way, it would just be describing it.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/3/2010 8:05:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/3/2010 2:54:58 AM, Kinesis wrote:

I'm not sure about this...is a 'limitation' the same thing as a 'property'? I think you're conflating the two when they aren't the same. A property could be one of unlimited power or knowledge (which are probably logically contradictory, but whatever), but that wouldn't limit it in any way, it would just be describing it.

I agree with you because you are using a limited scope. In your examples, you qualified unlimited by saying it might be "unlimited power or knowledge." Compare that to Geo's use of infinite in which he has no such qualifiers. The way Geo is using it is without scope: unlimited in every way shape & form; even unlimited properties. That is why it is a metaphorical definition of infinite and thus has no instantiation in physical reality.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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6/3/2010 8:43:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I believe God is infinite but chooses not to be in certain places at certain times, such as in the Old Testament when God would often abandon Israel after they decided to worship false gods. When they decided that they needed the real God again, He wasn't there for them. For a while.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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6/3/2010 8:50:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/3/2010 8:43:51 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
I believe God is infinite but chooses not to be in certain places at certain times, such as in the Old Testament when God would often abandon Israel after they decided to worship false gods. When they decided that they needed the real God again, He wasn't there for them. For a while.

that doesn't mean he wasn't present (in a physical sense) just not active. I can give Geo the silent treatment and still be present.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
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6/3/2010 3:42:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/3/2010 8:50:10 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 6/3/2010 8:43:51 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
I believe God is infinite but chooses not to be in certain places at certain times, such as in the Old Testament when God would often abandon Israel after they decided to worship false gods. When they decided that they needed the real God again, He wasn't there for them. For a while.

that doesn't mean he wasn't present (in a physical sense) just not active. I can give Geo the silent treatment and still be present.

I concur.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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6/4/2010 3:18:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:16:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To the God-believers, is God finite or infinite?

I know it is commonly held that he is infinite, but how does this make sense?

God is outside of time-space.
Evil is the ABSENSE of God.
God is not in Hell.
People are not God.
He specifically incarnated in Jesus and no one else.

So how is it possible for God to be infinite given the above?

I bring this up because people were giving me grief in my debate because I made a syllogism to refute a God, who indeed must be finite. My opponent then later defined God as infinite so I changed my syllogism so that, even if God were infinite, he would still be refuted.

People like Kinesis didn't understand that, and unfortunately I am having to take the fall for the theists own theological inconsistencies.


.
You are thinking naturally, finitely, about the Supernaturally infinite!
The Spiritual realm is not spacial in the way that you imply.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Anacharsis
Posts: 139
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6/14/2010 8:04:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/2/2010 1:16:40 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
To the God-believers, is God finite or infinite?

I know it is commonly held that he is infinite, but how does this make sense?

God is outside of time-space.
Evil is the ABSENSE of God.
God is not in Hell.
People are not God.
He specifically incarnated in Jesus and no one else.

So how is it possible for God to be infinite given the above?

I bring this up because people were giving me grief in my debate because I made a syllogism to refute a God, who indeed must be finite. My opponent then later defined God as infinite so I changed my syllogism so that, even if God were infinite, he would still be refuted.

People like Kinesis didn't understand that, and unfortunately I am having to take the fall for the theists own theological inconsistencies.

Possibly useless to your debate issue, but here are your answers anyway:

1) God may or may not be infinite. It seems to me that he must be infinite, but it may not be so. Only God knows his own limitations or if any limitations exist.

2) God being outside of time and space - well, sort of. Most religions would say yes, but I would say God exists both within space/time and outside of space/time. To be more precise, God is not bound by space/time.

3) "Evil is the ABSENCE (xD) of God" - nope. Evil is our perception of what is bad based on our bias.

4) Hell does not exist as a place anywhere in any imagined firmament. Hell is only the suffering that people create for themselves.

5) God is not only people, but all things; all things that exist, that have ever existed, that will or possibly could exist or be imagined as existing and all that lies beyond that. This list of course includes people.

6) We are all the sons and daughters of God. There have never been any embodiements of God in any form that we could recognize. God is embodied only in the totality of all things.

Hope it helps with something, sometime, somewhere.